Pressure shift to start swing

[Sp4zRX]

What is the most efficient way to start swing?

 

Should the club move first and body react or should pressure shift initiate swing?

 

I have typically been the former but recently finding some really great results experimenting with the latter. Is this a dead end road or something worth continuing to explore?

[Wolfhammer]

post changed: I read this as starting the downswing.

Edited January 23, 2024 by Wolfhammer
misread

[MonteScheinblum]

5 hours ago, Sp4zRX said:

What is the most efficient way to start swing?

 

Should the club move first and body react or should pressure shift initiate swing?

 

I have typically been the former but recently finding some really great results experimenting with the latter. Is this a dead end road or something worth continuing to explore?

In realty the club and hands move first and that force pulls the body along, but what individuals feel….is well……individual.

[MPStrat]

49 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

In realty the club and hands move first and that force pulls the body along

3D is not even needed to prove this false. This can be seen blatantly in 2D. I think this is a misunderstanding/misinterpretation.. 

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

3D is not even needed to prove this false. This can be seen blatantly in 2D. I think this is a misunderstanding/misinterpretation.. 

 

 

Normally I don’t respond to you or even read your posts because you’re on ignore for reasons that will be understood below.

 

Let’s assume for a second you’re right and I’m wrong, which is very possible.  I’ve been wrong in the past.  I’ve seen bad information/data that led me astray and have also seen new data that directed me differently.

 

My position is let’s make everyone more educated and better.  It’s how I make my living and if I make money off of helping people for free, what’s wrong with that.  My position is based on data from a reputable source that everyone would respect, I don’t remember which one.  A second source, which I usually require before I start saying it, was a great presentation by Drew Cooper when he was with swing catalyst.

 

In addition, having spent thousands of hours on the lesson tee seeing people reach maximum range of motion on their hip turn early and setting their wrists late from starting their backswing from the ground up and more times than I can count starting the backswing by moving the club first greatly increased their downswing sequence quality.

 

This is the difference between practical understanding on the lesson tee and theory from behind an anonymous keyboard.

 

This is my intellectual position.

 

Yours is one of textbook intellectual dishonesty.  You have been asked multiple times about your teaching credentials and you never respond.  
 

Let’s get to the salient point. For those of you that don’t know, mpstrat  has sent PM’s to multiple members here of a screenshot from another instructor who doesn’t like me very much.

 

The summary of the back and forth is that I am a marketing fraud and mpstrat is taking great pride in exposing me as a fraud to the praise and behest of said instructor.  
 

I am not anonymous and stand by my ideas and change when I see I may be off track.  Door #2 is an anonymous poster with an agenda to discredit me. 

 

I just think it’s important the readers understand where everyone is coming from.

Like I have said, I don’t teach off data, it’s one piece of the puzzle.  However, when data, visual evidence, and success on the lesson tea, all align, it’s probably a pretty good idea.

Oh yea, here’s a 2D video of DJ moving the club first 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2024 by MonteScheinblum

[ferrispgm]

5 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Normally I don’t respond to you or even read your posts because you’re on ignore for reasons that will be understood below.

 

Let’s assume for a second you’re right and I’m wrong, which is very possible.  I’ve been wrong in the past.  I’ve seen bad information/data that led me astray and have also seen new data that directed me differently.

 

My position is let’s make everyone more educated and better.  It’s how I make my living and if I make money off of helping people for free, what’s wrong with that.  My position is based on data from a reputable source that everyone would respect, I don’t remember which one.  A second source, which I usually require before I start saying it, was a great presentation by Drew Cooper when he was with swing catalyst.

 

In addition, having spent thousands of hours on the lesson tee seeing people reach maximum range of motion on their hip turn early and setting their wrists late from starting their backswing from the ground up and more times than I can count starting the backswing by moving the club first great increased their downswing sequence quality.

 

This is the difference between practical understanding on the lesson tee and theory from behind an anonymous keyboard.

 

This is my intellectual position.

 

Yours is one of textbook intellectual dishonesty.  You have been asked multiple times about your teaching credentials and you never respond.  
 

Let’s get to the salient point. For those of you that don’t know, mpstrat  has sent PM’s to multiple members here of a screenshot from another instructor who doesn’t like me very much.

 

The summary of the back and forth is that I am a marketing fraud and mpstrat is taking great pride in exposing me as a fraud to the praise and behest of said instructor.  
 

I am not anonymous and stand by my ideas and change when I see I may be off track.  Door #2 is an anonymous poster with an agenda to discredit me. 

 

I just think it’s important the readers understand where everyone is coming from.

 

 

Best non-Lion's victory-related thing I have read today.  It's amazing how intelligent and self-righteous people feel behind a keyboard.  Maybe MP is just Christo or Leadbetter in disguise.  

[MonteScheinblum]

4 minutes ago, ferrispgm said:

Best non-Lion's victory-related thing I have read today.  It's amazing how intelligent and self-righteous people feel behind a keyboard.  Maybe MP is just Christo or Leadbetter in disguise.  

Actually, for whatever issues you have with Christo’s ideas, he’s actually a very nice guy.

[getitdaily]

I have tried using the lower body pressure bump to start the swing. I was not a fan of it. 

 

I have to start the swing with a feeling of early wrist set (lead wrist ulnar deviation specifically) while my arms swing up. 

 

On video, I start the swing with a small, but noticeable shift into the trail leg and then my hands start.

 

So I do 1 thing. I think I do the other. I tried to focus on the 1 thing and it didn't work.

 

But that's golf.

[MPStrat]

All of that off topic personal stuff because I commented on the takeaway? I don’t have a personal problem with Monte. I’ve said this time and time again. Now the groupies, that’s another story 😂 and that was the substance from the referenced DM post from redacted anonymous instructor. Most of the groupies have left or have been banned anyway. We’ll see some come out of the woodwork for this thread, no doubt. Any time I make a reasonable disagreement I am absolutely flamed. It is what it is. I’ve told you guys before, it doesn’t bother me. The only people here that have an issue with me are the groupies. I’m ok with that. I enjoy it here and get along great with many posters. 

[MPStrat]

If you look at my posts, I never attack posters, I question ideas or concepts. I am extra careful to not be disrespectful or rude because insulting people is not my intent. 

 

There are several teachers here who know the “all good players take the club away first thing” and the “clubs momentum causes the weight shift” thing is false but will probably stay silent. To add, Drew Cooper already told me he would never say that. 

[Zitlow]

Even though I like all the guys here dissension is frowned upon. Monte gives of his time to help people here which is good but he doesn't have a monopoly on the universal knowledge base of the golf swing.

 

DJ a top 1%er athlete is the exception not the rule. Starting the clubhead first is a recipe for throwing oneself off balance from the get go. Once someone is out of balance they're done. 

 

 

There are lots of ways to get the job done. I prefer the old school method of using the hands and feet to get the swing started. The club head is last going back and last coming down.

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2024 by Zitlow

[Nard_S]

Learning the hard way that you are far better off starting backswing with hands/arms/ torso and delaying hip shift last than being "one piece" or shifting ground up. It's a sequence killer to sync all at once. It leaves you more vulnerable to poor positioning and erratic timing.

[MPStrat]

2 hours ago, getitdaily said:

I have tried using the lower body pressure bump to start the swing. I was not a fan of it. 

 

I have to start the swing with a feeling of early wrist set (lead wrist ulnar deviation specifically) while my arms swing up. 

 

On video, I start the swing with a small, but noticeable shift into the trail leg and then my hands start.

 

So I do 1 thing. I think I do the other. I tried to focus on the 1 thing and it didn't work.

 

But that's golf.

yes #feelaintreal 😂 to quote an infamous poster

 

I would go as far as to say that I bet you could find some who start things mostly at the same time or even the clubhead first a little. But that’s a far cry from “all good players start the clubhead first” or “the movement of the arms shifts the weight” because that’s just not true

[Valtiel]

3 hours ago, MPStrat said:

If you look at my posts, I never attack posters, I question ideas or concepts.

In consistently calling anyone that either disagrees with you or agrees with other instructors "groupies" you're doing exactly that. That is an attack as its language designed to discredit dissent without addressing anything about the substance of said dissent. It's the same pattern/tactic used by more fringe conspiracy theorists (not calling you one, just drawing a parallel) which is exactly why you get the flak you get for saying things this way. To be gossiping behind the scenes with other people in DMs also suggests you'd rather put energy into that than finding better ways to stand behind your ideas so you DON'T get this kind of pushback.   

Edited January 23, 2024 by Valtiel

[MPStrat]

 

 

More exaggerated:

 

 

 

[MPStrat]

4 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

In consistently calling anyone that either disagrees with you or agrees with other instructors "groupies" you're doing exactly that. That is an attack as its language designed to discredit dissent without addressing anything about the substance of said dissent. It's the same pattern /tactic used by more fringe conspiracy theorists (not calling you one, just drawing a parallel) which is exactly why you get the flak you get for saying things this way. To be gossiping behind the scenes with other people in DMs also suggests you'd rather put energy into that than finding better ways to stand behind your ideas so you DON'T get this kind of pushback.   

You disagree with me sometimes but you’re not really one of the groupies. I respect your knowledge and I think we productive back and forth discussion.

 

The groupies are the ones who don’t really have many of their own ideas, they just regurgitate what one teacher says and enjoy spending their time flaming anyone who dissents. I don’t have much respect for that. 

[Valtiel]

Just now, MPStrat said:

You disagree with me sometimes but you’re not really one of the groupies. I respect your knowledge and I think we productive back and forth discussion.

 

The groupies are the ones who don’t really have many of their own ideas, they just regurgitate what one teacher says and enjoy spending their time flaming anyone who dissents. I don’t have much respect for that. 

Understood and appreciated, what I would say is that this...
 

Quote

3D is not even needed to prove this false. This can be seen blatantly in 2D. I think this is a misunderstanding/misinterpretation.. 

...could just as easily be this...

 

Quote

Can you share the data behind this because what I feel like I see in 2D makes it feel like this is a misunderstanding/misinterpretation, but I understand this can vary from player to player

...and a productive back and forth would likely result that stays on topic AND helps other people passing by reading this. 

[MPStrat]

11 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

...could just as easily be this...
 

You’re right. That would have been a nicer way to say it. 

[Valtiel]

4 minutes ago, MPStrat said:

You’re right. That would have been a nicer way to say it. 

Hell, screw "nicer", its just better for the community and the discussion. @Sp4zRX has created a couple threads recently and its folks like him that are likely to *stop* doing that should these conversations always head in this direction...

[KD1]

12 hours ago, Sp4zRX said:

What is the most efficient way to start swing?

 

Should the club move first and body react or should pressure shift initiate swing?

 

I have typically been the former but recently finding some really great results experimenting with the latter. Is this a dead end road or something worth continuing to explore?

 

FWIW I've been playing with a subtle pressure shift as shown in the video from this thread and have been digging it. (N of 1 hacker 😂)

 

I've got a crappy hip pattern to begin with. I feel like focusing on this trigger gives my hips momentum to work in a better manner. That's my story and I'm sticking to it... for now

Edited January 23, 2024 by KD1
I can't spel

[naj959]

I think it depends on where you're coming from. I grew up playing with minimal hip turn and an armsy swing. I do much better feeling like pressure goes into my lead leg and then I rebound and shift it right. I get a deeper hip turn, proper tilts and extend much better. Just my personal feel YMMV.

[KD1]

7 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

In realty the club and hands move first

 

Can you elaborate on this? Is this a law of golf physics such that even if it's imperceptible it is in fact what is happening (like hips starting the downswing)? Or is it something we should be trying to do? Is it always a hand/club movement in a particular direction? Logic dictates when you say club you are focusing on the handle, but at first glance I was picturing club head.

[MonteScheinblum]

7 minutes ago, KD1 said:

 

Can you elaborate on this? Is this a law of golf physics such that even if it's imperceptible it is in fact what is happening (like hips starting the downswing)? Or is it something we should be trying to do? Is it always a hand/club movement in a particular direction? Logic dictates when you say club you are focusing on the handle, but at first glance I was picturing club head.

It’s imperceptible like the downswing sequence.  Like the downswing sequence, if you over lead with the body and the arms, hands and wrists are late….its a problem.  Like everything else in the swing, if it’s late or non existent, you need an intent.  
 

For some people, not a huge percentage, but for some, moving the club earlier via earlier hinge, is a terrible idea….but for most it’s very helpful.
 

Feeling the hands/arms move faster/earlier is a bad move for me, but good for most.

 

 

Edited January 23, 2024 by MonteScheinblum

[MPStrat]

One important thing to understand for this discussion

 

Starting the shift before the clubhead moves is a very different thing from starting the swing by ripping open the pelvis. The first is good, the latter is terrible. 
 

A shift for a stock shot is ideally a small linear move before the clubhead moves. A shift for a long drive competitor is often a bigger linear move. If this linear move is mistaken as a cue to fire the pelvis wide open in the takeaway, the golf swing will become exponentially more difficult. 
 

This common mistake doesn’t make it a good idea to literally stand flat footed and take the clubhead away first and ignore the early shift thinking that the arms will create a weight shift. I see this move posted here all the time by golfers who post their swings. 
 

Does a clubhead first takeaway have a place for those who already have the early shift down and open the pelvis too early? Absolutely. But it’s only a feel. 

[Sp4zRX]

3 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Hell, screw "nicer", it’s just better for the community and the discussion. @Sp4zRX has created a couple threads recently and its folks like him that are likely to *stop* doing that should these conversations always head in this direction...

Don’t worry, it’s not my first day on the internet. You’re not gonna scare me off that easy. 🙃

[Valtiel]

12 minutes ago, Sp4zRX said:

Don’t worry, it’s not my first day on the internet. You’re not gonna scare me off that easy. 🙃

To answer your original question though, for me personally I like to approach it from the intended result and work backwards. This probably won't work for everyone and might seem a little esoteric, but IMO a more holistic (ugh too many pretentious words) understanding of what we're trying to accomplish ideally works backwards to inform how we kick things off. I've described this to someone I worked with before as; when running towards something like a soccer ball to kick it we will unconsciously measure our steps in such a way as to land on the correct foot at the correct distance from the ball to make "impact". We measure said steps by making them much closer together in a more "shuffly" kind of way because the shorter the steps, the easier it is to switch from one to the other to land on the "right" one at the right time. If your strides stay longer and you aren't perfectly measured then you risk landing in completely the wrong place or on the wrong foot. You see children struggle with this initially, and this, humblingly, is the problem that most adults have with the full golf swing. We don't know where and how we're trying to "land" a majority of the time, or if we do we only understand it conceptually instead of innately/physically, and we end up metaphorically running at the ball like kid but with an adult level of strength that affords us enough ability to compensate and occasionally hit a good shot despite everything, which tells our ego that we've actually figured it out and "hey this game aint so hard!". 

For me it goes like this; I recognized a while ago (and occasionally need to re-recognize) that like many people I shift back a little too far and get stuck there a little too long to get into my front side the way I need to, and this works backwards into how I start my swing. I know I need to keep an eye on my lead side ("don't lose your left side" as Tommy Fleetwood once put it) and keep it somewhat active, because along with the overshifting into the trail side I would basically lose conscious awareness of what my lead side was even doing, because it was just being drug along with too much shifting away from the target, that when it came time to use it in transition and in the downswing it was delayed because I basically needed to "find it" again and utilize it in whatever position it ended up in. That means to "start" my swing I think of three main things:

1) Left shoulder down so I don't flatten in my shoulder turn (I do this a bit)
2) Slight bump towards my trail leg to push it back a touch and create momentum to head back forward later
3) A conscious moving/positioning of my front leg into where it needs to be to use it in transition

#1 is a personal thing for me, although many people struggle with turning on an incline like you're meant to so it's worth considering. #2 is just a little move to get things moving, sometimes triggered initially by a little bump "in" with the right hip before it works back (lots of pros do this). #3 is a very conscious thing, I have to "measure my step" to use the earlier metaphor so i'm always aware of what my lead side is doing in such a way that it's primed and ready to be used. From the outside there is very little indicator that any of these things are happening to the extent i'm focusing on them, it's very internal. Inside it feels like i'm Matthew Fitzpatrick who violently slams his lower body into these exact positions seemingly as fast as he can in the backswing, but in reality it obviously looks absolutely nothing like that. 

IMO just having a trigger move to get going isn't enough, it's the first part of a larger equation that takes time to figure out. The video @KD1 linked above mentions this towards the end, the ability to start gaining awareness of where and when things are moving and if they are moving correctly and in the right sequence.

[Ross_Albatross]

4 hours ago, Valtiel said:

To answer your original question though, for me personally I like to approach it from the intended result and work backwards. This probably won't work for everyone and might seem a little esoteric, but IMO a more holistic (ugh too many pretentious words) understanding of what we're trying to accomplish ideally works backwards to inform how we kick things off. I've described this to someone I worked with before as; when running towards something like a soccer ball to kick it we will unconsciously measure our steps in such a way as to land on the correct foot at the correct distance from the ball to make "impact". We measure said steps by making them much closer together in a more "shuffly" kind of way because the shorter the steps, the easier it is to switch from one to the other to land on the "right" one at the right time. If your strides stay longer and you aren't perfectly measured then you risk landing in completely the wrong place or on the wrong foot. You see children struggle with this initially, and this, humblingly, is the problem that most adults have with the full golf swing. We don't know where and how we're trying to "land" a majority of the time, or if we do we only understand it conceptually instead of innately/physically, and we end up metaphorically running at the ball like kid but with an adult level of strength that affords us enough ability to compensate and occasionally hit a good shot despite everything, which tells our ego that we've actually figured it out and "hey this game aint so hard!". 

For me it goes like this; I recognized a while ago (and occasionally need to re-recognize) that like many people I shift back a little too far and get stuck there a little too long to get into my front side the way I need to, and this works backwards into how I start my swing. I know I need to keep an eye on my lead side ("don't lose your left side" as Tommy Fleetwood once put it) and keep it somewhat active, because along with the overshifting into the trail side I would basically lose conscious awareness of what my lead side was even doing, because it was just being drug along with too much shifting away from the target, that when it came time to use it in transition and in the downswing it was delayed because I basically needed to "find it" again and utilize it in whatever position it ended up in. That means to "start" my swing I think of three main things:

1) Left shoulder down so I don't flatten in my shoulder turn (I do this a bit)
2) Slight bump towards my trail leg to push it back a touch and create momentum to head back forward later
3) A conscious moving/positioning of my front leg into where it needs to be to use it in transition

#1 is a personal thing for me, although many people struggle with turning on an incline like you're meant to so it's worth considering. #2 is just a little move to get things moving, sometimes triggered initially by a little bump "in" with the right hip before it works back (lots of pros do this). #3 is a very conscious thing, I have to "measure my step" to use the earlier metaphor so i'm always aware of what my lead side is doing in such a way that it's primed and ready to be used. From the outside there is very little indicator that any of these things are happening to the extent i'm focusing on them, it's very internal. Inside it feels like i'm Matthew Fitzpatrick who violently slams his lower body into these exact positions seemingly as fast as he can in the backswing, but in reality it obviously looks absolutely nothing like that. 

IMO just having a trigger move to get going isn't enough, it's the first part of a larger equation that takes time to figure out. The video @KD1 linked above mentions this towards the end, the ability to start gaining awareness of where and when things are moving and if they are moving correctly and in the right sequence.

The analogy of the soccer steps is a perfect example and one that shows that the subject at hand is important; all good kickers adjust their steps right off the bat in order to be able to get to the ball with maximum speed/power combo and if you adjust those steps too late, you lose your kicking sequence 

[johnrobison]

11 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Hell, screw "nicer", its just better for the community and the discussion. 

100%!

The internet is a morass of unproductive incivility - discussion forums, comment sections, all that "social" stuff. If suddenly everyone changed their display names to their real names, a lot of that toxic pretension would quickly go away. Let's just talk to each other like we're face-to-face, eh?

[iacas]

FWIW… Rory slightly extends his left knee to start his swing. Pushes the weight a little right (pressure is for a moment increased under the left because of the extension) and then he's into his backswing.

[Sp4zRX]

8 hours ago, Valtiel said:

understanding of what we're trying to accomplish ideally works backwards to inform how we kick things off. I've described this to someone I worked with before as; when running towards something like a soccer ball to kick it we will unconsciously measure our steps in such a way as to land on the correct foot at the correct distance from the ball to make "impact".

Wow I love this analogy. 
 

8 hours ago, Valtiel said:

For me it goes like this; I recognized a while ago (and occasionally need to re-recognize) that like many people I shift back a little too far and get stuck there a little too long to get into my front side the way I need to

This is me. Getting stuck on trail side is a tendency I constantly battle. What felt to me as an earlier pressure shift seemed to get the body motion going earlier so I could arrive on lead side earlier. After experimenting with it more it seems like it is something that can easily be overdone.