Order of play, off the tee.

[jobin]

I had been taught that when playing shots off the tee box all players are entitled to take their first shot before any player takes a provisional, or 2nd ball.  But now i notice that the folks i play with seem not to care about this.

 

Bob, first on the tee, smashes one 40 yds into the lake, roots around in his pocket for another tee, or ball, or both and hits a 2nd ball straight away.  The 3 or 4 guys next to play wait until Bob clears.  Whenever this happens or is questioned the 'offending' player merely hollers out 'pace of play, ready golf'.  In other words, " i do as i like'.

 

Am i wrong in thinking the any 2nd shot off the tee...must/should wait till all players have taken the first shot?  I believe in years past there was a RULE, but none found now, so i guess this question boils down to golf etiquette.

 

Any up to date comments on this v minor topic.

[goaliedad30]

In stroke play, there is no penalty for playing out of turn, so it's purely and etiquette question. In match play, I'll let the true gurus chime in.

[rogolf]

Rule 6.4c Stroke Play

c. When Player Will Play Provisional Ball or Another Ball from Teeing Area

The order of play in this case is for all other players in the group to make their first stroke on the hole before the player plays the provisional ball or another ball from the teeing area.

If more than one player will play a provisional ball or another ball from the teeing area, the order of play is the same order as before.

For a provisional ball or another ball played out of turn, see Rules 6.4a(2) and 6.4b.

[davep043]

1 hour ago, jobin said:

  I believe in years past there was a RULE, but none found now,

As @rogolf has quoted, the rule remains.  And as always, in stroke play there's no penalty for playing out of turn, unless its done to assist another player.

[smoky25]

I'm always slightly suspicious of somebody who conveniently has a 2nd ball in their pocket. 😇  The act of fetching another ball out of the bag usually takes care of the problem of hitting a provisional out of turn as it tends to put you at the back of the line.

[sui generis]

15 minutes ago, smoky25 said:

I'm always slightly suspicious of somebody who conveniently has a 2nd ball in their pocket

 

Well, I always have a second ball in my back pocket. It sports similar Sharpie dots as the ball I'm playing but always has a different number.

[LeoLeo99]

29 minutes ago, smoky25 said:

I'm always slightly suspicious of somebody who conveniently has a 2nd ball in their pocket. 😇  The act of fetching another ball out of the bag usually takes care of the problem of hitting a provisional out of turn as it tends to put you at the back of the line.

I've played with some old guys that can get that second ball out of their pocket and teed up before the first ball gets to the bottom of the lake.  They're very practiced at this. Lol

 

As far as etiquette goes, doesn't bother me the least.  

[rooski]

34 minutes ago, smoky25 said:

I'm always slightly suspicious of somebody who conveniently has a 2nd ball in their pocket. 😇  The act of fetching another ball out of the bag usually takes care of the problem of hitting a provisional out of turn as it tends to put you at the back of the line.

 

I never realized this was something that was suspicious to some players. I've never not carried a second ball in my pocket even though I don't tend to lose that many, if I need to drop or hit a provisional I want to be able to do it as quickly as possible (although I'd never hit one before a first shot like the topic mentions). I hate having to go back to the bag or cart for another ball, especially if one had to travel a ways to the tee box from wherever you dropped bags or stopped a cart.

Edited January 23, 2024 by rooski

[smoky25]

Just now, rooski said:

 

I never realized this was something that was suspicious to some players. I've never not carried a second ball in my pocket even though I don't tend to lose that many, if I need to drop or hit a provisional I want to be able to do it as quickly as possible (although I'd never hit one before a first shot like the topic mentions), not have to go back to the bag or cart for another ball, especially if you had to travel a ways to the tee box from wherever you dropped bags or stopped a cart.

It was tongue in cheek. It doesn't bother me and I play with guys who always have a 2nd ball in pocket. It does bother me to have a 2nd ball in my own pocket but I thinks it's because my pants are too tight.

[kiwigolf72]

Back in my younger days order of play was a big thing, even to the point where people would be called out for playing out of turn, now the R&A and the USGA actively encourage ready golf to help speed up the game.

All the tournaments I play in, the teeing order is still followed. 

Edited January 23, 2024 by kiwigolf72

[Hawkeye77]

I don’t care if anyone carries another ball in his pocket but I never have in all the years I’ve played golf when playing a round. 
 

Nothing wrong with following suggested etiquette on the tee box - and nothing wrong with “ready golf” if …… it doesn’t become an end in itself and affect others. 
 

Folks that play together a lot develop their own ways - if I’m playing with strangers I’m erring on the side of being deferential on the tee box - besides, if I’ve taken a triple on the hole before or just hit OB, a little personal time while others tee off doesn’t hurt. 

[Nickb333]

Agreed with the order of play. Hit your provisional after others hit their first. 
 

I also hate wasting time. So unless I’m walking, I have a second ball in my pocket. Marked the same but different number as  sui wrote. 

[SNIPERBBB]

I think its more of courtesy thing to wait for the rest of the group to tee off before you hit your third and/or provisional. Nobody wants to watch you hack it back into the junk multiple times before they tee off. Bad play can get infectious.

[golfortennis]

15 hours ago, smoky25 said:

I'm always slightly suspicious of somebody who conveniently has a 2nd ball in their pocket. 😇  The act of fetching another ball out of the bag usually takes care of the problem of hitting a provisional out of turn as it tends to put you at the back of the line.

 

I know you said you were joking, but our home course has a handful of tee boxes where you walk back to the tee box, and it makes no sense to drag your bag back there.  Put one OB and have to walk 60 yards to your bag to get another one once, and you'll carry a second ball.

 

But yeah I always wait till the other guys have hit before I play a provisional.

[Imp]

18 hours ago, jobin said:

Bob, first on the tee, smashes one 40 yds into the lake, roots around in his pocket for another tee, or ball, or both and hits a 2nd ball straight away.  The 3 or 4 guys next to play wait until Bob clears.  Whenever this happens or is questioned the 'offending' player merely hollers out 'pace of play, ready golf'.  In other words, " i do as i like'.

There may be someone in the group he may think is a slow player, and citing pace of play is his response to this player....  😉

 

Quote

Am i wrong in thinking the any 2nd shot off the tee...must/should wait till all players have taken the first shot?  I believe in years past there was a RULE, but none found now, so i guess this question boils down to golf etiquette.

*Should* is the key word. Doesn't have to. 

[Newby]

14 minutes ago, Imp said:

 

*Should* is the key word. Doesn't have to. 

The words in the Rule (6.4c) say ...

The order of play in this case is    --

 

See also 6.4d

When starting a hole from the teeing area (see Rule 6.4c)

 

The word 'should' only appears in 6.4b

 

 

Edited January 23, 2024 by Newby

[Imp]

16 minutes ago, Newby said:

The words in the Rule (6.4c) say ...

The order of play in this case is    --

 

See also 6.4d

When starting a hole from the teeing area (see Rule 6.4c)

 

The word 'should' only appears in 6.4b

 

 

 

6.4.b.(2) Playing Out of Turn in a Safe and Responsible Way (“Ready Golf”). Players are both allowed and encouraged to play out of turn in a safe and responsible way, such as when:

• Two or more players agree to do so for convenience or to save time,
• A player’s ball comes to rest a very short distance from the hole and the player wishes to hole out, or
• An individual player is ready and able to play before another player whose turn it is to play under the normal order of play in (1), so long as in playing out of turn the player does not endanger, distract or interfere with any other player.

But if the player whose turn it is to play under (1) is ready and able to play and indicates that they want to play first, other players should generally wait until that player has played.

 

"Should generally" != must. 

I think the person being described in the OP, is on the edge of the last bullet above. they're ready and able to play because they have their ball in their pocket and out before it lands in the water. It's up to the other players to say "stop" (also in that last bullet)

 

 

Edited January 23, 2024 by Imp

[rogolf]

54 minutes ago, Imp said:

 

6.4.b.(2) Playing Out of Turn in a Safe and Responsible Way (“Ready Golf”). Players are both allowed and encouraged to play out of turn in a safe and responsible way, such as when:

• Two or more players agree to do so for convenience or to save time,
• A player’s ball comes to rest a very short distance from the hole and the player wishes to hole out, or
• An individual player is ready and able to play before another player whose turn it is to play under the normal order of play in (1), so long as in playing out of turn the player does not endanger, distract or interfere with any other player.

But if the player whose turn it is to play under (1) is ready and able to play and indicates that they want to play first, other players should generally wait until that player has played.

 

"Should generally" != must. 

I think the person being described in the OP, is on the edge of the last bullet above. they're ready and able to play because they have their ball in their pocket and out before it lands in the water. It's up to the other players to say "stop" (also in that last bullet)

 

 

The player in the OP should show some respect for the other players (who should not need to say "stop").

[Imp]

13 minutes ago, rogolf said:

The player in the OP should show some respect for the other players (who should not need to say "stop").

No disagreeing with that. 😉 "..on the edge of the last bullet"

[rzitup]

This is interesting, as there are situations (mostly related to gambling), where a player NEEDS to re-tee before the others have hit.  I always kind of assumed that, if it was my turn to hit, I should complete my turn before the others step up to the tee.  And that includes firing a provisional off the tee.  

[SNIPERBBB]

26 minutes ago, rzitup said:

This is interesting, as there are situations (mostly related to gambling), where a player NEEDS to re-tee before the others have hit.  I always kind of assumed that, if it was my turn to hit, I should complete my turn before the others step up to the tee.  And that includes firing a provisional off the tee.  

What gambling scenario would force a player to retee before the rest of the group tees off? I can see some gamesmanship stuff going on though. 

[Schulzmc]

35 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

What gambling scenario would force a player to retee before the rest of the group tees off? I can see some gamesmanship stuff going on though. 

We play a game called "wolf" where you have to decide if you are choosing a player as a partner before the next person tees off. I doubt you would be choosing a person who has to play a provisional, but I can imagine there are some scenarios where you might and therefore need to know where their provisional lies.

[Imp]

1 hour ago, Schulzmc said:

We play a game called "wolf" where you have to decide if you are choosing a player as a partner before the next person tees off. I doubt you would be choosing a person who has to play a provisional, but I can imagine there are some scenarios where you might and therefore need to know where their provisional lies.

Re-read the OP. It's not a provisional. If it's in the water, and they re-tee, they taking stroke and distance and are hitting 3. The wolf most definitely won't be picking the person hitting 3 and may suffer going lone, not by choice.

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, Schulzmc said:

We play a game called "wolf" where you have to decide if you are choosing a player as a partner before the next person tees off. I doubt you would be choosing a person who has to play a provisional, but I can imagine there are some scenarios where you might and therefore need to know where their provisional lies.

 

Yeah, and I think while you may not choose the first or second player to tee off if they hit it into a penalty area or needs to take a provisional, depending on what the first 2 players do, you may be in a rare situation where you want player 3 on your team even if they play a provisional and it's very good, or even more rare, a 2nd ball and it's spectacular. 

 

I.e. you're playing a par 3 and player 1 is in a greenside bunker with a high lip, and player 2 is short-sided in deep greenside rough. Player 3 hooks the ball into an area that's almost assuredly OB, and is going to declare the second ball a provisional even though it's pretty much known it's OB, basically to protect themselves from having to take S&D in case some crazy thing happened and the ball ricochet'd into bounds in a really good spot. 

 

I don't want to go lone only to see player 3 stiff their provisional to 6", or even worse, hole out from their re-tee. If I can make them play before me, I'll make my decision based on the actual known location of that provisional. If they hole out (for par b/c chances are they aren't looking for the original ball anyway after holing out and we all know it went OB) while the other two missed the green, pretty sure they're about to be my partner lol...

 

That said, I think once you introduce a game like Wolf, you're no longer playing "stroke play" per se. Even if you're all holing out according to RoG and submitting your scores for hdcp purposes. It's a modified Fourball match play format where the primary difference from Fourball is that teams vary from hole to hole based on decisions made by the rotating Wolf player (including the option of going lone and playing a 1v3 match play). 

 

33 minutes ago, Imp said:

Re-read the OP. It's not a provisional. If it's in the water, and they re-tee, they taking stroke and distance and are hitting 3. The wolf most definitely won't be picking the person hitting 3 and may suffer going lone, not by choice.

 

The OP used a ball being hit into a lake as an example, but clearly stated that the question was applying not only to S&D second ball, but also to provisional balls.

[Hawkeye77]

6 hours ago, golfortennis said:

 

I know you said you were joking, but our home course has a handful of tee boxes where you walk back to the tee box, and it makes no sense to drag your bag back there.  Put one OB and have to walk 60 yards to your bag to get another one once, and you'll carry a second ball.

 

I'll borrow a ball, lol, no way I'm hitting another one of mine out!

[Nickb333]

In wolf, you take the player or don’t after his first shot. Once the next guy hits, you can’t take the previous guy. Therefore, and keeping within tradition, a provisional should always be taken after all players have hit. 
 

… at least that’s what my bookies tell me.

[Schulzmc]

5 hours ago, Nickb333 said:

In wolf, you take the player or don’t after his first shot. Once the next guy hits, you can’t take the previous guy. Therefore, and keeping within tradition, a provisional should always be taken after all players have hit. 
 

… at least that’s what my bookies tell me.

Well - not when we play. And the guy who just hit it in the water may be the only guy getting a stroke so if he sticks his provisional you may still choose him.

 

[Nickb333]

Wolf is a vicious game. I don’t remember ever playing with strokes. 

[Mr. Bean]

15 hours ago, Imp said:

But if the player whose turn it is to play under (1) is ready and able to play and indicates that they want to play first, other players should generally wait until that player has played.

 

"Should generally" != must. 
 

 

Should equals a recommendation, it is not equal to must. If the Rule would say must then there would be a penalty if not followed. In this case there is no penalty, although a player just might (not equal to "will") find him/her carrying a reputation of an inconciderate person.

 

Afa ready golf is concerned it is rather customary to ask whether one may play out of order and it is extremely customary that a permission is granted. In the OP type of case if the player would hit also the 2nd ball into a pond the others might say "take a breath, Bob, and let us hit a few balls before you try again".

[MisterT]

On 1/22/2024 at 7:20 PM, sui generis said:

 

Well, I always have a second ball in my back pocket. It sports similar Sharpie dots as the ball I'm playing but always has a different number.

The same for me.