Torrey vs Riviera

[3whacker]

1 hour ago, Dutch1008 said:

Riv and it's not a fair fight. But if Coore & Crenshaw or Hanse were given free reign to renovate Torrey?!?!? It could be Pebble Beach South with far superior weather. 

didnt RTJII do the renovation in order for it to be worthy of being in the USOpen rota

[aenemated]

I've walked 'em both. Riv, to me, is really your average LA muni course with the exception of 10 and 18. Like, go play like Harding at Griffith Park and you've basically played Riviera. 

 

Oak Quarry is the best course in the general LA area (yeah, yeah, it's in Riverside) as far as I'm concerned. 

[MikeW2]

This might be a really unpopular take and I’ve only watched them on TV…I don’t enjoy watching either course.

[Dutch1008]

45 minutes ago, 3whacker said:

didnt RTJII do the renovation in order for it to be worthy of being in the USOpen rota

 

I didn't move to CA until long after the remodel so I can't speak to what it looked like before or speak to what changes were made. I've played it a few times since moving here and always come back blown away by the scenery/location, but underwhelmed by the course. I don't know what the RTJII mandate or budget was, just feels like a talented architect with an appropriate budget could do something special on that property. 

 

It's not that it's bad. I'm happy to play it anytime I can get the local rate. At the local price it's better than anything I can play in Orange County. Just feels underutilized or unoptimized.   

[Nickb333]

Not sure I understand the criteria…

 

the top two greatest players in the history golf never won at Riviera but… ? 

[3whacker]

2 hours ago, Nickb333 said:

Not sure I understand the criteria…

 

the top two greatest players in the history golf never won at Riviera but… ? 

But its called Hogan's Alley

[3whacker]

3 hours ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

I didn't move to CA until long after the remodel so I can't speak to what it looked like before or speak to what changes were made. I've played it a few times since moving here and always come back blown away by the scenery/location, but underwhelmed by the course. I don't know what the RTJII mandate or budget was, just feels like a talented architect with an appropriate budget could do something special on that property. 

 

It's not that it's bad. I'm happy to play it anytime I can get the local rate. At the local price it's better than anything I can play in Orange County. Just feels underutilized or unoptimized.   

I lived in SD for three years and played TP back in the 90's....but I too am from OC and still think Pelican Hill is as good as any, and that Dove Canyon and Coto de Caza are two great courses that many people will never get to see

[Nickb333]

10 minutes ago, 3whacker said:

But its called Hogan's Alley

Courses for horses? 
 

Has anyone else dominated a course for a year or two? Does that make the course iconic? Or the player? 
 

Just asking because I don’t know. Not trying to start a feud or hurt anyone’s feelings. 

[3whacker]

4 minutes ago, Nickb333 said:

Courses for horses? 
 

Has anyone else dominated a course for a year or two? Does that make the course iconic? Or the player? 
 

Just asking because I don’t know. Not trying to start a feud or hurt anyone’s feelings. 

Tiger at Bay Hill...owned that place

[grm24]

3 minutes ago, 3whacker said:

Tiger at Bay Hill...owned that place

Other places TW owned. Amazing numbers.

 

Tiger at Augusta.... 5 wins.

Tiger at Firestone.... 7 wins.

Tiger at Muirfield Village.... 5 wins.

Tiger at Doral (Blue Monster).... 4 wins.

Tiger at Cog Hill.... 5 wins.

[Nickb333]

That was kinda my question. What makes a course iconic? The player? Or the design? Or the local? Or???

[Dutch1008]

40 minutes ago, 3whacker said:

I lived in SD for three years and played TP back in the 90's....but I too am from OC and still think Pelican Hill is as good as any, and that Dove Canyon and Coto de Caza are two great courses that many people will never get to see

I like Pelican too but locals get Torrey sub $100, Pelican will run you $350-450.  Also Pelican is a lost ball factory if you’re struggling off the tee. I have some great rounds and a few painful ones there. Insider tip, make a friend that works at the Irvine Co. Big discount at Pelican. 

[TiScape]

15 hours ago, aenemated said:

I've walked 'em both. Riv, to me, is really your average LA muni course with the exception of 10 and 18. Like, go play like Harding at Griffith Park and you've basically played Riviera. 

 

Oak Quarry is the best course in the general LA area (yeah, yeah, it's in Riverside) as far as I'm concerned. 

“RIV is your average LA muni course.”

[billyspan]

16 hours ago, 3whacker said:

didnt RTJII do the renovation in order for it to be worthy of being in the USOpen rota

It was Reese Jones

 

https://reesjonesinc.com/courses/torrey-pines-south/

 

 

[billyspan]

16 hours ago, aenemated said:

I've walked 'em both. Riv, to me, is really your average LA muni course with the exception of 10 and 18. Like, go play like Harding at Griffith Park and you've basically played Riviera. 

 

Oak Quarry is the best course in the general LA area (yeah, yeah, it's in Riverside) as far as I'm concerned. 

Oh man, my heart breaks when you talk about Griffith Park.  What could have been!!  See image below from the 1937 Los Angeles Open - Wilson Routing.  The course had some amazing sandy wash areas pre the catastrophic 1938 LA-area floods and 1924-26 building of what would become the I-5 freeway separating the course from the LA river (bottom of picture below).   Those floods turned the LA and surrounding rivers into the dead concrete monstrosities they are today and changed the Griffith Park courses forever.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2024 by billyspan
photo

[TiScape]

22 minutes ago, billyspan said:

Those floods turned the LA and surrounding rivers into the dead concrete monstrosities  they are today and changed the Griffith Park courses forever.

 

 

 

 

So true. But have made appearances in a fair amount of pretty decent movies! 
 

*silver lining 😊

[mosesgolf]

18 hours ago, grm24 said:

Tiger winning there 8 times (including a US Open) is a large part of it. Great location. Meh course.

I've played Torrey and agree 100% "meh course".  Good views.  Note "good".   No magnificent views like Pebble.

[Guest]

I mean this isn't a fair fight.  Riviera is one of the top 5 course in California.  Top 25 in the US.   It's incredible.

 

Torrey is a public course in mediocre condition with nice views, and you can get better views at the state park right next to it.  It's a hard course from the very tips, but not very interesting.  I wouldn't put it top 30 in California.  

Edited January 25, 2024 by Oliver Klozoff

[straightshot7]

On 1/22/2024 at 10:52 PM, 3whacker said:

Torrey would still be an expensive muni had it never hosted the USOpen, it only has two holes with elevation changes, other than that its a flat flat track with a fabulous backdrop

 

Riviera has held up all these years ,yes guy can go real low there, but when the wind blows not so much

are you referring to Torrey south? How many times have you played it?

every hole has some slope.

 

2 has significant slope about 100 yards before the green

 

3 is a significantly downhill par 3

 

4 is significantly uphill. Lots of slope on the second shot 

 

12 and 13 have noticeable elevation changes (13 being severely elevated green)

 

if I only played Torrey south once I would probably be underwhelmed because it doesn’t force you to be impressed, like a TPC sawgrass

 

but I was fortunate to play it 20+ times in the past couple years as a resident and I grew to appreciate it more 

 

it’s just a very solid test with tricky greens and pretty much every hole is fun.

 

its interesting to me because if you hit it or miss in all the right spots, you can shoot a pretty low score quite easily. But if you miss just barely in the wrong spot, you can shoot a high score very quickly or be left short sided with very little chance of making par.

 

for example, on 7, if you go long you can take one hop into a hazard. Even if it stays up, it’s a difficult up and down. So you learn to miss short. Same thing on 14. You can land the ball on the back of the green and end up in the hazard with one big bounce. 

 

You have to play defensive/cautious/precise on many shots. The greens are too slopey and fast to be able to just get up and down from anywhere.

 

but when you do manage to hit your spots and play smart, it’s more satisfying than just some purely bomb and gauge course.
 

it may look flat on tv, but every hole has slopes and mounds like you can see here on the 16th hole:

 

 

now would I pay $200+ to play it regularly? No. 

Edited January 25, 2024 by straightshot7

[NevinW]

I've not played Riviera, but I have played Torrey Pines South about 30-40 times both as a kid and when I lived in San Diego and it is hardly flat.  I don't get the negativity towards it in recent years.  I've always found it to be a very challenging beautiful golf course.  One of my favorites.  

[Dutch1008]

9 hours ago, NevinW said:

I've not played Riviera, but I have played Torrey Pines South about 30-40 times both as a kid and when I lived in San Diego and it is hardly flat.  I don't get the negativity towards it in recent years.  I've always found it to be a very challenging beautiful golf course.  One of my favorites.  

 

I haven't played it nearly as much as you, but I have one personal opinion and another that I've heard from multiple pros...

 

My thought - Parts of the course just look like a giant public park w/ an endless expanse of grass. I think it'd be far more visually interesting and interesting to play if it incorporated some more "native/natural" areas. Right now, if you hit a wayward shot, it's either a lost ball that flew off a cliff, or your sitting in deep rough. 

 

Pros thought - Every missed green is the same challenge. Green, fringe, deep rough, couple bunkers. There are no run off areas asking players a different question or requiring different techniques. 

 

To be fair, I think both of those things are simply nitpicks. It's still a jewel for locals and I'm massively jealous I don't get the resident rate. Basically, it's a great muni but I think it could be the best muni. Check out what Gil Hanse did at The Park West Palm. https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-park-west-palm-gil-hanse

Edited January 25, 2024 by Dutch1008

[bazzle18]

If the question is iconic, the answer is easily Riviera. It's near the top of the top for golf architecture buffs for a reason. 

 

Torrey Pines brings to mind many adjectives, but not sure iconic is anywhere on that list.

[TiScape]

5 hours ago, NevinW said:

I've not played Riviera, but I have played Torrey Pines South about 30-40 times both as a kid and when I lived in San Diego and it is hardly flat.  I don't get the negativity towards it in recent years.  I've always found it to be a very challenging beautiful golf course.  One of my favorites.  

Yeah, it’s the same negative narrative that arises here every year during the tournament. I’ve learned to just ignore it at this point. 

[TiScape]

12 hours ago, straightshot7 said:

are you referring to Torrey south? How many times have you played it?

every hole has some slope.

 

2 has significant slope about 100 yards before the green

 

3 is a significantly downhill par 3

 

4 is significantly uphill. Lots of slope on the second shot 

 

12 and 13 have noticeable elevation changes (13 being severely elevated green)

 

if I only played Torrey south once I would probably be underwhelmed because it doesn’t force you to be impressed, like a TPC sawgrass

 

but I was fortunate to play it 20+ times in the past couple years as a resident and I grew to appreciate it more 

 

it’s just a very solid test with tricky greens and pretty much every hole is fun.

 

its interesting to me because if you hit it or miss in all the right spots, you can shoot a pretty low score quite easily. But if you miss just barely in the wrong spot, you can shoot a high score very quickly or be left short sided with very little chance of making par.

 

for example, on 7, if you go long you can take one hop into a hazard. Even if it stays up, it’s a difficult up and down. So you learn to miss short. Same thing on 14. You can land the ball on the back of the green and end up in the hazard with one big bounce. 

 

You have to play defensive/cautious/precise on many shots. The greens are too slopey and fast to be able to just get up and down from anywhere.

 

but when you do manage to hit your spots and play smart, it’s more satisfying than just some purely bomb and gauge course.
 

it may look flat on tv, but every hole has slopes and mounds like you can see here on the 16th hole:

 

 

now would I pay $200+ to play it regularly? No. 

So wait, ppl on the internet say things like they are facts but really don’t know??? 
 

🤣

 

*btw the course looks spectacular right now with the sun coming out and shining thru the bit of fog along the coast. Simply beautiful scenery. 

[canonlbp430]

On 1/23/2024 at 9:55 AM, jholz said:

I've never understood why Torrey Pines is so revered. 

 

A weak layout whose only defense is distance. But, it's been placed on a prime piece of real estate. 

 

 

Because most people think since the Tour plays it that it has to be one of the best courses in the world. It's a great course for tour golf but not something most would think twice about if it didn't host tour events, similar to Quail Hollow.

[TiScape]

1 hour ago, TiScape said:

Yeah, it’s the same negative narrative that arises here every year during the tournament. I’ve learned to just ignore it at this point. 

Just re-read my post and thought of the typical take on Torrey. “Great location, meh course”. Made me think. I’d take a 1,000 sq ft. “shack” on those bluffs over a gorgeous sprawling estate in Ohio ANY day of the week and twice on Sunday! 😂 

 

*No disrespect to any Ohio lovers. Just my opinion 😇

[mat562]

18 hours ago, TiScape said:

. I’d take a 1,000 sq ft. “shack” on those bluffs over a gorgeous sprawling estate in Ohio ANY day of the week and twice on Sunday! 😂 

 

*No disrespect to any Ohio lovers. Just my opinion 😇

 

What manner of North Dakota property would we be talking?

[Hankshank]

On 1/25/2024 at 7:57 PM, TiScape said:

Yeah, it’s the same negative narrative that arises here every year during the tournament. I’ve learned to just ignore it at this point. 

But the same with Torrey as the next weeks Pebble, most people have not played it and never will. So one measure them - in my view rigntly - as what show they make for televised golf. And there are constantly flyovers over the cliff side holes, but especially the last holes don’t make much impression with their layout. The behind-player camera views on 16 and 17 are cute but nothing more is to be remembered. I have watched, albeit sketchy the tournament for three days now and I have absolutely no impression of the 18th, don’t remember anything about it.

 

Sure, playing it wold be another thing. But I guess 99% of the TV spectators and probably also of the wrxers will never do.

 

 

Edited January 27, 2024 by Hankshank

[Mr.Cleeks]

On 1/24/2024 at 12:12 AM, grm24 said:

Other places TW owned. Amazing numbers.

 

Tiger at Augusta.... 5 wins.

Tiger at Firestone.... 7 wins.

Tiger at Muirfield Village.... 5 wins.

Tiger at Doral (Blue Monster).... 4 wins.

Tiger at Cog Hill.... 5 wins.

Great post! Just did a little additional research and their were some courses that Tiger won at 3+ times. (Comprehensive list below)

8 times at Firestone

8 times at Bay Hill

8 times at Torrey Pines

5 times at Augusta

5 times at Muirfield Village

5 times at Cog Hill

4 times at Doral

3 times at Omni La Costa Resort

3 times at Warwick Hills

That’s 49 wins and 6 majors on 9 courses.Absolutelyly insane when you take into account how different each course is from one another 

 

[billyspan]

On 1/25/2024 at 10:40 AM, Dutch1008 said:

To be fair, I think both of those things are simply nitpicks. It's still a jewel for locals and I'm massively jealous I don't get the resident rate. Basically, it's a great muni but I think it could be the best muni. Check out what Gil Hanse did at The Park West Palm. https://www.golfdigest.com/story/the-park-west-palm-gil-hanse

Good call on The Park West Palm. A gem.

 

See also Soule Park in Ojai, CA.  Hanse reworked another Bell design (like Torrey).  I believe this is one of Hanse's first jobs in 2005.  The greens and surrounds are fantastic.

https://www.soulepark.com/