Irons, upright lie angles, shaft lean, compression.

[Pnwpingi210]

Have any of you experienced teachers seen irons that are too upright impacting one’s ability to create shaft lean and compression?

 

 

 

 

a little background on why I’m asking.   I’m 6’1” with 35 wtf.  Been playing golf for 30 years (mid 40s age). I’ve always been fit into .5 over and around 2-3 degrees upright depending on the manufacture.  I’m a decent ball striker, but tend to flip and not reduce much loft at impact if any.  Short irons are high and spinny, even on well struck balls.    Most of my angles are gone by parallel on the down swing and I pick it clean off the turf.  
 

This winter I’ve committed to working of compression and reducing dynamic loft. Lots of drills to open to maintain angles through rotation while opening the front hip.  Developed a huge pull hook.    I went in to hit the new blueprints and hit them in standard length, std loft.  Felt great but till a ball starting left and turning over.   I asked the fitter to put it a degree flat, he said let’s try two.  It was a huge difference.  For the first time I was able to understand the feeling of covering the ball with my chest an hit down on it with shaft lean.  Instead of feeling like I had to try to force holding the angles and keeping my chest down, I had to do those things in order hit the ball with the flat clubs.  Is this unique?  

 

Edited February 1, 2024 by Pnwpingi210

[tthomasgolfer605]

I've always said, "fit your clubs for the swing you want to have, not the one you currently have."  I'm a big believer in having clubs that sit flat on the ground. Jack Nicklaus was a believer in that as well. No built in corrections. 

[iacas]

A club rarely returns to the setup lie angle, so I don’t know about sitting flat at address.

 

Upright lie angles as you know we tend to point the face left so can increase the likelihood of left start lines.

 

The flatter ones might be a “fix” for a swing flaw or maybe they’re what you should be playing.

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

A club rarely returns to the setup lie angle, so I don’t know about sitting flat at address.

 

Upright lie angles as you know we tend to point the face left so can increase the likelihood of left start lines.

 

The flatter ones might be a “fix” for a swing flaw or maybe they’re what you should be playing.

Come out to the coast.  We’ll get together.  Have a few laughs. 
 

LOL, just noticed the change from the traffic warning!

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

LOL, just noticed the change from the traffic warning!

 

Temporarily. The pedestrian crossing guy (with a golf club and a laptop) will be back.

[tthomasgolfer605]

People getting fit into upright clubs based on their current swing are compounding the issue. It encourages a steep downswing to flatten the club out. If you get the club fit where it sits flat from heel to toe, or maybe a hair toe up, it encourages much better turf interaction. I think Jack knows what he's talking about. Billy Horschel went through this stuff because his clubs were too upright in the short irons. Wedges are WAY too upright in standard specs these days. Personally, I want the club aiming exactly where I think it is. 

[Pnwpingi210]

15 minutes ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

People getting fit into upright clubs based on their current swing are compounding the issue. It encourages a steep downswing to flatten the club out. If you get the club fit where it sits flat from heel to toe, or maybe a hair toe up, it encourages much better turf interaction. I think Jack knows what he's talking about. Billy Horschel went through this stuff because his clubs were too upright in the short irons. Wedges are WAY too upright in standard specs these days. Personally, I want the club aiming exactly where I think it is. 

I went back in and hit them ( 2 degrees flat) again today with the same results.
 

 

I can still address the ball with the toe slighty up with the two degrees flat.   It requires me to get a little more athletic in my posture, including more hip hinge.  But boy does is allow me to come down on a much more shallow plane and compress the ball.     
 

I’m going to pick up a set in that spec.

Edited February 1, 2024 by Pnwpingi210

[tthomasgolfer605]

1 hour ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

I went back in and hit them ( 2 degrees flat) again today with the same results.
 

 

I can still address the ball with the toe slighty up with the two degrees flat.   It requires me to get a little more athletic in my posture, including more hip hinge.  But boy does is allow me to come down on a much more shallow plane and compress the ball.     
 

I’m going to pick up a set in that spec.

Make sure you double check the short irons. They get stiffer as the clubs get shorter. You may experience less toe droop with them requiring an even flatter lie. You're on the right track. 

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

This thread is incredibly relevant to my interests.  Your situation sounds almost exactly like mine, down to the hook. (Though mine varies between push and pull-hook).  You still hit the ball faster than I do too.

 

OP, did you try any of the line on the back of the ball testing before hopping into 2 flat and if so, what did it reveal?

[Pnwpingi210]

17 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

This thread is incredibly relevant to my interests.  Your situation sounds almost exactly like mine, down to the hook. (Though mine varies between push and pull-hook).  You still hit the ball faster than I do too.

 

OP, did you try any of the line on the back of the ball testing before hopping into 2 flat and if so, what did it reveal?

No, we didn’t try any line on the back of the ball before going flat.  
 

It was based on the the ball flight and me doing a few rehearsal and telling the fitter this is what I’m try to do, but when I do it it feels like the club face is shut and heel is going to dig.

[Pepperturbo]

On 1/31/2024 at 9:16 PM, Pnwpingi210 said:

Have any of you experienced teachers seen irons that are too upright impacting one’s ability to create shaft lean and compression?

 

 

 

 

a little background on why I’m asking.   I’m 6’1” with 35 wtf.  Been playing golf for 30 years (mid 40s age). I’ve always been fit into .5 over and around 2-3 degrees upright depending on the manufacture.  I’m a decent ball striker, but tend to flip and not reduce much loft at impact if any.  Short irons are high and spinny, even on well struck balls.    Most of my angles are gone by parallel on the down swing and I pick it clean off the turf.  
 

This winter I’ve committed to working of compression and reducing dynamic loft. Lots of drills to open to maintain angles through rotation while opening the front hip.  Developed a huge pull hook.    I went in to hit the new blueprints and hit them in standard length, std loft.  Felt great but till a ball starting left and turning over.   I asked the fitter to put it a degree flat, he said let’s try two.  It was a huge difference.  For the first time I was able to understand the feeling of covering the ball with my chest an hit down on it with shaft lean.  Instead of feeling like I had to try to force holding the angles and keeping my chest down, I had to do those things in order hit the ball with the flat clubs.  Is this unique?  

 

When I took up golf I had to have my irons adjusted 2" upright because they were flat from the OEM.  Six years later, I was an index of 2.  Thanks to CAD entering golf in 2006, irons now come upright, allowing me to play irons off the rack, when I couldn't do that back in the 90s.  I am not saying anything more than at your height, be careful about proper fitting and lie angles. 

Good luck.

[tthomasgolfer605]

On 2/2/2024 at 3:01 PM, Pepperturbo said:

When I took up golf I had to have my irons adjusted 2" upright because they were flat from the OEM.  Six years later, I was an index of 2.  Thanks to CAD entering golf in 2006, irons now come upright, allowing me to play irons off the rack, when I couldn't do that back in the 90s.  I am not saying anything more than at your height, be careful about proper fitting and lie angles. 

Good luck.

Irons come upright in an attempt to help slicers. Makes things worse for a lot of people.

[Zitlow]

3 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Irons come upright in an attempt to help slicers. Makes things worse for a lot of people.

 

Makes sense. Comeaux's irons are 4-5* flat.

 

 

 

[golf-RN]

I feel as if I am in the same boat as the OP. I am 6'3" and tend to be a "handle raiser" with todays irons and have developed a much weaker than I would like to have grip to avoid the lefts playing them. My old irons are a set of TaylorMade Firesole Tours from @ 1998ish and they are quite a bit more flat and I can use a much more comfortable (stronger) grip with those and can still play my preferred shot shape which is a fade, but like the OP said, I don't feel as steep with the old set (they are just too heavy now that I am older). I have not been fit (yet, coming soon), but I wonder if because the newer irons are too upright for me, am I subconsciously raising the handle to compensate for the too uprightness of my irons? Irons is question are the King Tours, standard length and lie, basically off the rack KBS $-taper 120's

[virtuoso]

On 2/1/2024 at 12:08 AM, tthomasgolfer605 said:

I've always said, "fit your clubs for the swing you want to have, not the one you currently have."  I'm a big believer in having clubs that sit flat on the ground. Jack Nicklaus was a believer in that as well. No built in corrections. 

Awesome idea for 1% of the golfing population.

[virtuoso]

11 hours ago, tthomasgolfer605 said:

Irons come upright in an attempt to help slicers. Makes things worse for a lot of people.

Nope, new clubs come standard 2 degrees more upright than they used to because most slicers actually need 4 degrees upright.

[virtuoso]

8 hours ago, Zitlow said:

 

Makes sense. Comeaux's irons are 4-5* flat.

 

 

 

Comeaux is an example of good golf swing plus gibberish equals mysterious guru.

[virtuoso]

….not even my frenzied insomnia can save this thread….too many fires to put out.

[EdY]

Back to the OP. Would not the impact board tell the fitter what adjustments to make?

[EdY]

The comments above seem very generalized lacking details. For example, MP59’s from 2012 and JPX921 Tour (2020), have identical loft and lie specs. Let’s go back to 2004 MP30. Same, same although I think they made a loft tweak in the 6 or 7 iron from 3* steps to 4*. No matter. This is a thread about lie angle. 
 

Facts would be helpful. Like which heads from which mfr are now upright and when did the change occur?

[virtuoso]

On 2/1/2024 at 2:41 PM, tthomasgolfer605 said:

People getting fit into upright clubs based on their current swing are compounding the issue. It encourages a steep downswing to flatten the club out. If you get the club fit where it sits flat from heel to toe, or maybe a hair toe up, it encourages much better turf interaction. I think Jack knows what he's talking about. Billy Horschel went through this stuff because his clubs were too upright in the short irons. Wedges are WAY too upright in standard specs these days. Personally, I want the club aiming exactly where I think it is. 

I work with tour pros that can’t change the height of the handle at impact and you’re asking “Harold” to do it.

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, EdY said:

Back to the OP. Would not the impact board tell the fitter what adjustments to make?

Nope, because the lie board is going to tell the OP that he is toe down with the flatter clubs at impact…..but he hits it better, ie, not left with those clubs because the normal of the face points more rightward. In this case, the ball flight fit works better for him than the lie board fit.

[Hawkeye77]

9 hours ago, Zitlow said:

 

Makes sense. Comeaux's irons are 4-5* flat.

 

 

 

Because everyone who plays golf has his physical dimensions and swings the same, yep. And make sure and push slap that ball. 

[virtuoso]

1 minute ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Because everyone who plays golf has his physical dimensions and swings the same, yep. And make sure and push slap that ball. 

Just to crystallize Lee’s understanding of GRF, he once told me he could stand on a bed of ice and his swing would look and function the exact same.

[Hawkeye77]

1 minute ago, virtuoso said:

Just to crystallize Lee’s understanding of GRF, he once told me he could stand on a bed of ice and his swing would look and function the exact same.

He grooved a nice one, will say no more. 

[virtuoso]

5 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

He grooved a nice one, will say no more. 

He also needn’t say more.

[Zitlow]

Lee Comeaux lives in Beaumont TX about an hour from me. He told me his irons were 4 or 5* flat. The soles sit flat on the ground for obvious reasons like @tthomasgolfer605 mentioned.

 

Lee has an unconventional swing and he plays the ball in the middle of his stance out and away from him. 

 

 

 

Edited February 4, 2024 by Zitlow

[virtuoso]

24 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

Lee Comeaux lives in Beaumont TX about an hour from me. He told me his irons were 4 or 5* flat. The soles sit flat on the ground for obvious reasons like @tthomasgolfer605 mentioned.

 

Lee has an unconventional swing and he plays the ball in the middle of his stance out and away from him. 

 

 

 

Having people set their clubs up to sit flat on the ground is a good way to get them to quit the game.

[DamianD]

41" wrist to floor here. I started at 5 degrees upright and over the years went to a standard lie as that made the game easier for me. Extra length could be your friend, I am at +2.2" inch now, but it's hard to get the heads light enough, matching shaft weights and balance etc.

 

It's a strange topic, if you lengthen a 63 lie angle wedge with 2" that would sit the same as a standard length 5 iron at 63 degrees, it would feel super upright but it shouldn't be different from that long wedge. 

 

And then there is Bryson Dechambeau with his 66.5 degrees clubs, so it probably is a preference thing. For me extra length was superior to more up.

Edited February 4, 2024 by DamianD

[Pnwpingi210]

Thanks for the input of this!

 

I have hit the flat clubs 3 times now with the same result.  I got some video the last session and will share with my coach during our next connect. to see if it aligns with what we are trying to do.

 

I will say that I’m able address the ball with the clubs toe up with both the upright clubs and the flat clubs.  The flat clubs definitely require lower hands and it does feel different, but not uncomfortable or unmanageable. The biggest difference for me is I feel (I know feel isn’t always real) that I have to exit high and right with my left hand at release and the flat clubs naturally I exit low and left with almost a bowed wrist.