Moe/Bryson single plane swing thread

[TonyRo]

Why would you need to switch grips!? The whole method breaks down if your hands wrap around a smaller diameter grip? 😁

[ChaosTheory]

1 minute ago, TonyRo said:

Why would you need to switch grips!? The whole method breaks down if your hands wrap around a smaller diameter grip? 😁

The grip is more in the hands than in the fingers.  This can vary by teacher.  You absolutely can make the swing with normal grips.  I’m saying that if you decide to proceed after a testing period, you’ll probably want bigger grips.

[Bob M]

By way of update, last Thursday I played my first round of 2024, 9-holes at Pinecrest a short, but fairly tough track in southern RI. It was my first time going live with a single plane swing and I shot a 9-over 44 on a course which I had trouble breaking 50 last season. I have been working with Kirk Junge for about a month now and so far, am really pleased with the results as my shots are much straighter than in the past and I have not lost any distance. 

[ChaosTheory]

11 minutes ago, Bob M said:

By way of update, last Thursday I played my first round of 2024, 9-holes at Pinecrest a short, but fairly tough track in southern RI. It was my first time going live with a single plane swing and I shot a 9-over 44 on a course which I had trouble breaking 50 last season. I have been working with Kirk Junge for about a month now and so far, am really pleased with the results as my shots are much straighter than in the past and I have not lost any distance. 

That’s a great start, Bob!

[Strugglingpro]

On 2/20/2024 at 1:40 PM, SwingBlues said:

If we did that, will the"Moe" in us come out?

😂

 

Seriously, Moe digged it from the dirt as Hogan says. His genius is figuring out the spacing problem & simplifying the basic golf swing for us. Long live Moe 🙏

I played an Asher Tour Event with Reece Howard and we both setup for impact and have a lot of Moe Norman traits to our swings. He has a YouTube channel and it is extremely helpful because he creates a lot of speed with the movement. To me, it just makes sense to setup close to where you are going to be at impact. ( The average person sets up with their hands 4.8 inches lower than impact with the driver). 

[ChaosTheory]

4 hours ago, Strugglingpro said:

I played an Asher Tour Event with Reece Howard and we both setup for impact and have a lot of Moe Norman traits to our swings. He has a YouTube channel and it is extremely helpful because he creates a lot of speed with the movement. To me, it just makes sense to setup close to where you are going to be at impact. ( The average person sets up with their hands 4.8 inches lower than impact with the driver). 

Very interesting info, thanks!  A minor correction, it’s Reed, not Reece.    I have not seen much about him in the last couple of years.

 

Do you do the same with all clubs?

Edited March 26, 2024 by ChaosTheory

[ChaosTheory]

Long time no post.  I've been playing very well with the single plane swing.  I've always fought a slightly vertical backswing, which led to an outside in downswing.  I ingrained a block which usually made it all work.  This year I've flattened my backswing (not flat, but less upright) and gotten a better downswing, and gained about 10 yards with all clubs.   🙂

 

My latest thing is to drop my trail foot back (closed) a couple of inches on irons and hybrids.  That really helps get my backswing in the right place.  I'm hitting small draws, which is a first for me.

Edited September 18, 2024 by ChaosTheory

[ChaosTheory]

Just stumbled onto this video.  It's an infomercial for Kirk Junge's method, by one of his instructors.

 

 

Edited September 18, 2024 by ChaosTheory

[Bob M]

6 hours ago, ChaosTheory said:

Just stumbled onto this video.  It's an infomercial for Kirk Junge's method, by one of his instructors.

 

 

 

I watched this video yesterday. As @ChaosTheory mentioned, Tony Griffin aka "Geezer Tony" is an instructor for Kirk Junge, who is located in North Carolina. He is 70 years old and typically shoots even par, or close, even from 7,000+ yards. His video content mostly relates to how to play golf, rather than the S4I swing directly, but it is definitely fair to call this one an infomercial for S4I. 

 

I started working with Kirk's online program in February. I ended my membership in July because I felt that it was time to work the drills and play more, but would highly recommend it to anyone who wants to learn the single plane swing. At this point, I cannot see going back to a "conventional" swing as the S4I swing is simple and effective. One of the things that I like best about Kirk's approach is that it is customizable for the particular golfer. As a result of this training, my shots tend more to a slight draw, versus the hooks I was getting last year and as a bonus, my short game has improved (Tony often mentions this benefit in his videos). 

Edited September 18, 2024 by Bob M

[Robert L.]

Here's how my foray into the single plane swing has gone. A couple of weeks ago I was playing, and I was having a terrible time of it. After taking a 10 on a par 5 I tore up my scorecard and finished my round without it! Fortunately it was a 9-hole course so I was done rather quickly. When I got home I was thinking about that round and I knew I needed to make some changes. A couple of days later I was down at my practice hitting net and I tried a couple of things with my driver. First, I stood a bit further from the ball, since on an Alex Elliott video he said that the golf swing produces centrifugal forces, causing the club to extend away from the golfer.

 

With that in mind the next time I was at my hitting net I tried standing farther from the ball, and I assumed a single plane stance like the one Kirk Junge uses. I then was hitting the ball much more solidly, and the impact sticker confirmed it - I was hitting the ball much closer to the sweet spot. Just for the heck of it I tried something else, addressing the ball with the driver head about 12 inches back like Moe does, and Jon Rahm to a lesser extent, and opening the clubface a bit so it would meet the ball straight. It was like I just couldn't help but to hit the ball solidly!  I couldn't wait to try it during a round.

 

I got the chance last Thursday. My son and I were playing late in the morning, and I tried it on the first tee. I took my stance, made my swing, and the ball took off like a rocket, long and straight! I was sold! The single-plane swing worked for me, but for now I'll just use it with the driver. I'll practice it with my other clubs and study Kirk Junge videos before switching over completely.

 

I'm sold on the single-plane swing!

[Bob M]

1 hour ago, Robert L. said:

Here's how my foray into the single plane swing has gone. A couple of weeks ago I was playing, and I was having a terrible time of it. After taking a 10 on a par 5 I tore up my scorecard and finished my round without it! Fortunately it was a 9-hole course so I was done rather quickly. When I got home I was thinking about that round and I knew I needed to make some changes. A couple of days later I was down at my practice hitting net and I tried a couple of things with my driver. First, I stood a bit further from the ball, since on an Alex Elliott video he said that the golf swing produces centrifugal forces, causing the club to extend away from the golfer.

 

With that in mind the next time I was at my hitting net I tried standing farther from the ball, and I assumed a single plane stance like the one Kirk Junge uses. I then was hitting the ball much more solidly, and the impact sticker confirmed it - I was hitting the ball much closer to the sweet spot. Just for the heck of it I tried something else, addressing the ball with the driver head about 12 inches back like Moe does, and Jon Rahm to a lesser extent, and opening the clubface a bit so it would meet the ball straight. It was like I just couldn't help but to hit the ball solidly!  I couldn't wait to try it during a round.

 

I got the chance last Thursday. My son and I were playing late in the morning, and I tried it on the first tee. I took my stance, made my swing, and the ball took off like a rocket, long and straight! I was sold! The single-plane swing worked for me, but for now I'll just use it with the driver. I'll practice it with my other clubs and study Kirk Junge videos before switching over completely.

 

I'm sold on the single-plane swing!

If you search Kirk's YT site you will find videos related to the drills he uses. For his foundational drill (called Drill 1) he has you setup per the S4I swing and take VERY short swings making sure that the clubhead is behind your hands at impact and that you begin the down swing while the club is still moving back. Sounds easy, but it took me 2-3 months to get it right. Once you have this feel down, lengthen the swing. Good luck!

[Robert L.]

2 hours ago, Bob M said:

If you search Kirk's YT site you will find videos related to the drills he uses. For his foundational drill (called Drill 1) he has you setup per the S4I swing and take VERY short swings making sure that the clubhead is behind your hands at impact and that you begin the down swing while the club is still moving back. Sounds easy, but it took me 2-3 months to get it right. Once you have this feel down, lengthen the swing. Good luck!

Already been there! Kirk has a lot of YT videos of the S4I swing. I've started working on the short swing Drill 1 as he suggests for 5 minutes at a time. I'm keeping my 9 iron close by so I can practice whenever I want to.

 

Like I said in my post I'll just use the S4I swing with my driver for the rest of this season, and I'll work on the other clubs at home. Hopefully I'll be fully swinging single plane by next season. Can't wait to see the results I'll get!

[Nels55]

On 2/6/2024 at 9:40 AM, ChaosTheory said:

Let's have a thread for those of us who setup and swing with the high hands and straight lines of Moe Norman, Bryson D, etc.  Swings are hard to define with labels, but in the past on other forums, these swings have been called Single Axis, or SA swings for short.  There are several people teaching such swings these days, and I know there are a fair number of people here who use such swings.  I would ask that the naysayers please let this thread exist in peace for those who are using these swings and those who are interested.

 

Photo comes from Graves Golf:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Single Axis is defined in Jack Kuykendall's patent.  It is the relationship of the trail ulnar bone and the clubshaft. 

 

Here is a look at the patent:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US5803827A/en

 

When Bryson first became known by the masses I read an article by JK where he said that Bryson is not SA.  If you look at where the shaft is running in the pic that you posted it is not in line with his trail hand ulnar bone but is slightly under it.  JK also mentioned a number of other things that Bryson was doing or not doing that made him a conventional golfer.  I don't remember the details anymore.  Actually maybe it was a youtube video.  Don't remember...

[Robert L.]

2 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Single Axis is defined in Jack Kuykendall's patent.  It is the relationship of the trail ulnar bone and the clubshaft. 

 

Here is a look at the patent:
https://patents.google.com/patent/US5803827A/en

 

When Bryson first became known by the masses I read an article by JK where he said that Bryson is not SA.  If you look at where the shaft is running in the pic that you posted it is not in line with his trail hand ulnar bone but is slightly under it.  JK also mentioned a number of other things that Bryson was doing or not doing that made him a conventional golfer.  I don't remember the details anymore.  Actually maybe it was a youtube video.  Don't remember...

Seems to me that judging from the pictures in the patent docs Kuykendall patented Moe's swing. My personal opinion is that the single-axis swing is customizable to the individual golfer, as per Kirk Junge. As for myself I begin my swing with the driver clubhead a good foot back from the ball and with a narrower stance at address than Moe had. I'm now making better contact on the face as per the impact stickers I use. 

[E2EGOLFER53]

On 3/26/2024 at 12:35 PM, Strugglingpro said:

I played an Asher Tour Event with Reece Howard and we both setup for impact and have a lot of Moe Norman traits to our swings. He has a YouTube channel and it is extremely helpful because he creates a lot of speed with the movement. To me, it just makes sense to setup close to where you are going to be at impact. ( The average person sets up with their hands 4.8 inches lower than impact with the driver). 

Reece Howard is a very good Single Plane golfer.

[N0rs3man]

I have a self taught single plane swing. It’s kinda moe ish but the grip and backswing is a bit different. I just could never go back to conventional. Honestly not that I couldn’t play decent golf, it’s just the sheer forces on lower back. I had to get away from side bend and pushing up with lead leg into impact. 
 

now I actually dip at impact with bent front knee, hands infront of chest and hips at impact. Clubs need to be flattened a few degrees
 

my ball striking is excellent and distance has stayed relatively similar.

[playit]

I am looking forward to reading this thread. I am going to work on the Graves single plane lessons. It simply makes sense to me and they seem to have a good program. And I like Todd's delivery. I can't say the same about every instructor.

 

There are several things that I have seen in Todd Graves swing and movements that I have actually worked on during my golfing days, which began many decades ago! And I was not into single plane at all, didn't know it existed. If my injuries and pain can be contained, I am thinking that I can do this. I hope that a limited backswing will work because that might be where I stay! I am coming at this as an old man, lol, as I will be 71 in two weeks and haven't played in many years until this past July, when I started to try again.

 

One thing that has helped me buy into this is BDC's success. I have watched a ton of his videos on youtube and the guy is seriously accurate even with his crazy swingspeed. I have grown to enjoy him and pull for him, he's interesting.

 

Another thing that has made me grab on is I have watched even more tons of youtubes on the golf swing and, I swear, there can't be any athletic motion more complicated than golf. What a can o' worms! This just seems so much simpler. I have always been pretty good at mimicking athletic motions, and this just seems simpler. Hope it works out! It would be doubly awesome in that, at my age, time is of the essence. I used to play good golf but always had a swing fault of casting / flipping / early release even when I played to scratch and better. I lost distance due to that. A reason I am back into golf is that it's a bucket list thang to solve the casting issue. So that I can rest in peace and know that I am delivering a proper strike to the ball! And, to enjoy low scores as an old man! A goal is to shoot my age, among others.

 

Good luck to everyone trying this method.

[ChaosTheory]

45 minutes ago, playit said:

Another thing that has made me grab on is I have watched even more tons of youtubes on the golf swing and, I swear, there can't be any athletic motion more complicated than golf. What a can o' worms! This just seems so much simpler.

 

BINGO!

[SEP1006]

1 hour ago, playit said:

I am looking forward to reading this thread. I am going to work on the Graves single plane lessons. It simply makes sense to me and they seem to have a good program. And I like Todd's delivery. I can't say the same about every instructor.

 

There are several things that I have seen in Todd Graves swing and movements that I have actually worked on during my golfing days, which began many decades ago! And I was not into single plane at all, didn't know it existed. If my injuries and pain can be contained, I am thinking that I can do this. I hope that a limited backswing will work because that might be where I stay! I am coming at this as an old man, lol, as I will be 71 in two weeks and haven't played in many years until this past July, when I started to try again.

 

One thing that has helped me buy into this is BDC's success. I have watched a ton of his videos on youtube and the guy is seriously accurate even with his crazy swingspeed. I have grown to enjoy him and pull for him, he's interesting.

 

Another thing that has made me grab on is I have watched even more tons of youtubes on the golf swing and, I swear, there can't be any athletic motion more complicated than golf. What a can o' worms! This just seems so much simpler. I have always been pretty good at mimicking athletic motions, and this just seems simpler. Hope it works out! It would be doubly awesome in that, at my age, time is of the essence. I used to play good golf but always had a swing fault of casting / flipping / early release even when I played to scratch and better. I lost distance due to that. A reason I am back into golf is that it's a bucket list thang to solve the casting issue. So that I can rest in peace and know that I am delivering a proper strike to the ball! And, to enjoy low scores as an old man! A goal is to shoot my age, among others.

 

Good luck to everyone trying this method.

 

 

Good luck and I hope it works out for you. I have been doing the BDC swing for pretty much 10 years. Definitely simpler than the conventional 2-plane. I also use the JMX Ultralight XL grips and hold the club in the palms of my hand. TO ME it's much easier to control the club face and I picked up distance as well.

 

I have dabbled in the Graves method a couple of times and it does work for sure. Just the BDC swing seems a little simpler to me.

 

 

 

 

[playit]

11 minutes ago, SEP1006 said:

 

 

Good luck and I hope it works out for you. I have been doing the BDC swing for pretty much 10 years. Definitely simpler than the conventional 2-plane. I also use the JMX Ultralight XL grips and hold the club in the palms of my hand. TO ME it's much easier to control the club face and I picked up distance as well.

 

I have dabbled in the Graves method a couple of times and it does work for sure. Just the BDC swing seems a little simpler to me.

 

 

 

 

 

How does one learn the BDC swing? You talking about just emulating / mimicking him or does someone teach it?

[SEP1006]

4 minutes ago, playit said:

 

How does one learn the BDC swing? You talking about just emulating / mimicking him or does someone teach it?

 

 

Don't know anyone one that teaches it. I learned it at the time by just watching his swing in slow motion.

 

He now has videos on You Tube describing what he is doing and how. I watch them from time to time when I'm off a little.

 

 

[vegasandre]

Been going down the Bryson super deep dive road recently myself and although in the fairly early stages ,I have had several minor eureka moments that seem to help me get into a better more consistent low point face control. 
Already had an outlier type swing speed (for an older dude) and going over to more of Bryson's takeaway, combined with some of his equipment -has at least helped me in the short term so far. 
Combined with Monte's lessons (there are some similarities.) I feel like I am making a solid move towards some of my goals. 
A couple things that seem to have helped me so far (may not be for everyone): 
Equipment
Went to the Jumbomax grips.. XL on the woods. and XS(which are still BIG) on the irons. 
Still have the TM 770's - haven't switched to more upright lie stuff yet. But am considering it. 
Got a Krank fire pro 7.5 degree driver - put a fuji ventus tr black 6x in it. just got it actually. Like it...so far. Like it more than my QI10 LS.
Still have the standard vokey 52 56 60 wedges - may change that...

Takeaway
Huge impact for me-
-Starting with left arm rotated(pronated clockwise) on every swing from a little pitch to a driver. 
-Neutral to weak LH grip(1 knuckle) a huge switch from my strong 3 knuckle grip. 
-keeping both arms extended all the way out (standing farther from ball also giving me more room at the same time)
-first move is a feeling of left arm and left upper chest rotating right at the same time locked to each other
-wide as I can get feeling of left arm straight(especially on longer clubs. )
-this leads to a better rotation of my right hip
-keeping spine angle the same. 
-getting to left side prior to the top (huge).
-slowing down (at least in my mind) the transition. 
-On about a 6i and lower my left heel starts to come up on the backswing. 

This "one plane swing"  is a work in progress. 
I am liking the results. 

[SEP1006]

26 minutes ago, vegasandre said:

Went to the Jumbomax grips.. XL on the woods. and XS(which are still BIG) on the irons. 

 

I went all in when I swapped to the BDC swing. I have the JMX XL's on ALL my clubs and have now for 10+ years. I hold the club in the palm of my left hand, in my opinion so much more control of the clubface.

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, vegasandre said:

haven't switched to more upright lie stuff yet. But am considering it. 

 

Don't automatically assume you need upright lie angles. I'm 6'-1", arms and legs are fit to my body. ALL of my irons are 2* Flat and play my Driver on the Flat setting as well.

 

 

 

[vegasandre]

14 minutes ago, SEP1006 said:

 

I went all in when I swapped to the BDC swing. I have the JMX XL's on ALL my clubs and have now for 10+ years. I hold the club in the palm of my left hand, in my opinion so much more control of the clubface.

 

 

 

 

Don't automatically assume you need upright lie angles. I'm 6'-1", arms and legs are fit to my body. ALL of my irons are 2* Flat and play my Driver on the Flat setting as well.

 

 

 

Thank you.  It has been interesting.    I am average size - 5 11" 190 but have a strong upper body with popeye type arms .
When I first went to  the XL's on woods (november) I put one on a 7i too  .  Driver felt great but the grip on the iron felt massive(I have a ML to L glove).  settled on the XS(which is like a jumbo+) after much testing.  
Now a couple months later..as I am really getting used to it... I think I can go larger on the grips on the irons as well. Maybe not the Xl's but maybe a L.. will play around with them again. 
As far as my Iron lies I have no idea really they are probably standard. Never really fitted. just bought them on a whim at a PGA superstore in PBG last year after hitting a few in the sim. 
Thinking maybe going all the way..?  one length clubs.. its a big step. Not sure if I should go that way completely yet. 

[SEP1006]

1 hour ago, vegasandre said:

Thinking maybe going all the way..?  one length clubs.. its a big step. Not sure if I should go that way completely yet. 

 

 

Yeh I thought about this a couple of times but not seriously. I see the benefits but just don't think there that substantial.

 

 

 

[ChaosTheory]

10 hours ago, vegasandre said:

Thinking maybe going all the way..?  one length clubs

I see OL as something that is independent of swing style. 

Edited February 8 by ChaosTheory

[vegasandre]

2 hours ago, ChaosTheory said:

I see OL as something that is independent of swing style. 

 

 

 

The one length Idea is still intriguing to an extent.  Maybe it simplifies everything and adds to the one plane swing like Bryson.
Where would you even try them out..?  you can't!    Probably would have to have a couple made.  
It's been hard enough trying other clubs when you are used to the Jumbomax.. it's not easy any more. (regular grips feel like kiddie clubs)
This was a great new video.  A very good golfer from Golf Monthly entered a tourney with Bryson's back up clubs. 
(he doesn't have a one piece swing)

This one for the One plane guys..
This guy (high level golfer) went the Bryson one plane route with his own stock clubs.  
great results...

 

Edited February 8 by vegasandre

[Rapidcat]

1 hour ago, vegasandre said:

The one length Idea is still intriguing to an extent.  Maybe it simplifies everything and adds to the one plane swing like Bryson.
Where would you even try them out..?  you can't!    Probably would have to have a couple made.  
It's been hard enough trying other clubs when you are used to the Jumbomax.. it's not easy any more. (regular grips feel like kiddie clubs)
This was a great new video.  A very good golfer from Golf Monthly entered a tourney with Bryson's back up clubs. 
(he doesn't have a one piece swing)

This one for the One plane guys..
This guy (high level golfer) went the Bryson one plane route with his own stock clubs.  
great results...

 

 

But there's a problem....this fellow is very personable and enthusiastic but he comes up with 'this is better' swing theory every year.

 

Make your mind up Steve. How can you take him seriously?

[PedronNiall]

On 10/30/2024 at 5:55 PM, playit said:

Another thing that has made me grab on is I have watched even more tons of youtubes on the golf swing and, I swear, there can't be any athletic motion more complicated than golf. What a can o' worms! This just seems so much simpler.

 

Going to disagree. What's complicated is all the mysticism that's been a part of golf for far too long. While Dr Kwon goes into great depth about all the things that go on in the swing for those who want to understand the details, he makes it very clear through his key drills how simple the golf swing really is. 

 

 

 

What's overly complex about that? What's confusing about doing that from a good starting position? 

 

AMG and others who break down the best players' swings may go into great detail about the mechanics in play, but they too show that the core of good golf is based around a simple, efficient turn back and through the ball. 

 

 

 

Again, nothing complex or intricate going on, just sound setup and swing fundamentals. 

 

The problem is that golf, unlike most other sports, still has a lot of instructors, coaches, and swing gurus who can get away with tossing out their jargon as gold while getting buy in from people who accept that if they don't understand what's going on it's on them and not the guru's lack of clarity or sharing of things based in fact. 

 

If the Single Axis swing is someone's bag then more power to them, but learning a traditional swing takes no more effort than whatever will be involved in moving to SA or a Bryson style setup and swing. I'd even venture to guess that most would find the simple adjustments needed to get their current swing streamlined much lower effort than making the changes required for this, let alone equipment tweaks that go along with it. 

 

All well and good if the few who teach this method are consistent about what's required for it, but let's not confuse poor legacy instruction of the traditional swing with complexity of the traditional swing. 

 

[ChaosTheory]

I’ve been fighting hooks.

 

I believe I’ve traced it down to not hitting against a bent lead leg.  And I was putting extra weight on the lead foot, feeling like I was hitting off a downhill lie.  Sometimes it results in nice draws.  But sometimes it made me shallow the club too much, and hook the krap out of it.

 

 I picked up distance, so that was nice.  But the hooks are killing me.  So I’m going back to the Moe pattern of leg action.  Over the years, every time I get away from the pattern in some way, it turns out badly.  Or requires band aids to keep it together.  
 

The bent lead leg really tightens up the dispersion; I’ve seen that before.  It seems to lock down the clubface.