Ping irons question..

[Rosco1216]

So I had a buddy tell me recently that with pings irons in power spec, standard or retro/traditional that they all have the same standard offset and bounce and are actually different heads. I always assumed they were standard heads and power spec was bent strong and retro bent weak. 
 

can anyone confirm if this is accurate?

Edited March 12, 2024 by Rosco1216

[Arlin964]

By most accounts on here and elsewhere, that is different information. 
 

I’m pretty positive that they are all the same heads and just bent, therefore bounce and offset change for each loft spec. 

[Rosco1216]

5 minutes ago, Arlin964 said:

By most accounts on here and elsewhere, that is different information. 
 

I’m pretty positive that they are all the same heads and just bent, therefore bounce and offset change for each loft spec. 

Of course this is what I always assumed but wanted to ask on here to see if anyone knows for sure.

Edited March 12, 2024 by Rosco1216

[mgoblue83]

I'm pretty sure they are the same heads that have been "pressed" and not just bent at the hosel. That means that it's possible that things like offset and bounce won't change as much as normal bending.

[st1800e]

9 minutes ago, mgoblue83 said:

I'm pretty sure they are the same heads that have been "pressed" and not just bent at the hosel. That means that it's possible that things like offset and bounce won't change as much as normal bending.

Not sure what you mean - pressed.  Ping uses a large levered device, which bends the club head, to change lofts. 
 

Starts at ~2.45 in the video. 
 

 

[DJ07]

According to a prior thread on here from a couple years ago, Ping bends the standard clubs:

 

 

 

[MattM97]

You know how many SKU's they'd have to have if each spec was it's own head? 

[Rosco1216]

Of course, hence why I’m asking because I highly doubted it was the case. 

4 minutes ago, MattM97 said:

You know how many SKU's they'd have to have if each spec was its own head? 

[Chunkitgood]

No idea what a SKU is but whether they cast them, forge them, CNC them, or bend them it would seem that each type of head is going to have to be uniquely identified for inventory, assembly, and sale.

[st1800e]

48 minutes ago, Chunkitgood said:

No idea what a SKU is but whether they cast them, forge them, CNC them, or bend them it would seem that each type of head is going to have to be uniquely identified for inventory, assembly, and sale.

Stock keeping unit. Pings are

Most often cast.  
They’re bent to spec based on specific orders during assembly. See the production video above.     Otherwise they usually come out standard length and black dot for retailer inventory.  

[nitram]

Your buddy is pulling your leg Rosco.

[wobgon]

21 minutes ago, nitram said:

Your buddy is pulling your leg Rosco.

Yep.

[mgoblue83]

6 hours ago, st1800e said:

Not sure what you mean - pressed.  Ping uses a large levered device, which bends the club head, to change lofts. 
 

Starts at ~2.45 in the video. 
 

 

Thanks for the video. Very cool!

I was pretty sure that most OEMs press the heads using hydraulic presses (exactly what it sounds like) but I’ve never seen it in action so could be wrong.
 

An example is the old Taylormade B stamp irons had all of the offset pressed out of them. Can’t be done with just a bending bar.

[Rosco1216]

53 minutes ago, nitram said:

Your buddy is pulling your leg Rosco.

I guess he owes me a freshly crisp ben franklin then!

[st1800e]

1 hour ago, mgoblue83 said:

Thanks for the video. Very cool!

I was pretty sure that most OEMs press the heads using hydraulic presses (exactly what it sounds like) but I’ve never seen it in action so could be wrong.
 

An example is the old Taylormade B stamp irons had all of the offset pressed out of them. Can’t be done with just a bending bar.

I think you’re thinking of “Forging”, how forged heads are formed.  Many ton press, shaping an head from a billet of steel using progressive dies, that are made in the form of a club head.  The design of the club head will dictate the shape of the die. The offset etc is part of the design, not a method to change specs.  

 

Unless an iron says forged on it or in its description it’s cast by pouring molten steel into a mold.  
 

Go to MGS and search for “FORGED VS. CAST: DOES IT EVEN MATTER?”

 

TM calling them Stamped while technically not false is a marketing name.  

 

[North Butte]

Here are the NOTES from the G430 irons specs on Ping's web site.

 

NOTES

• These are design specifications that may vary due to manufacturing tolerances.
• Lie angle is based on Black Color Code at standard length.
• Power Spec Loft is a fitting option for players looking to boost their iron distance or decrease spin to hit a desired trajectory window. This custom-designed loft configuration delivers a calculated power boost without sacrificing the integrity of the club’s design.
• Retro Spec Loft is a fitting option if you’re less concerned with overall distance and more with precision and a higher trajectory for more stopping power. This loft configuration yields functional distance gaps for utilizing a 3-wedge setup or a more classic loft spec.
• Club bounce angles will vary slightly if ordered with non-standard loft specs.
• Standard swingweights for graphite-shafted clubs are 1 to 2 points lighter than shown, depending on shaft flex.
• Standard swingweight for the HL (High Launch) build in the 7-iron is C8.
• Achievable swingweights depend on shaft, length and grip combinations.
• Available in left- and right-handed models.

[AzRoger]

12 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

I was pretty sure that most OEMs press the heads using hydraulic presses (exactly what it sounds like) but I’ve never seen it in action so could be wrong.

Do you have an example of this pressing method? I've seen factory tours of several manufacturers and although they usually have a custom-built machine to mount the club and measure loft/lie they all used a bending bar to get the club to the custom spec. I know Mizuno just builds a few standard wedge heads and bend them, with a bending bar, to get all the different loft and bounce options.

[mgoblue83]

2 hours ago, AzRoger said:

Do you have an example of this pressing method? I've seen factory tours of several manufacturers and although they usually have a custom-built machine to mount the club and measure loft/lie they all used a bending bar to get the club to the custom spec. I know Mizuno just builds a few standard wedge heads and bend them, with a bending bar, to get all the different loft and bounce options.

 

I've never seen it in action but I've read about it multiple times on this website. Maybe someone else knows more about it?

 

The example that I reference earlier is the Taylormade B-Stamp irons. I'm not sure if they produce them anymore but they are basically a zero offset version of the iron model. I've personally hit the Taylormade R9 and Taylormade R9 B-Stamp irons side by side and can confirm that the B-Stamp have the same bounce as the original with all of the offset pressed out. It's a true zero offset spec and I'm 99% sure Taylormade isn't producing that version separately. Same heads just pressed out.

 

https://www.taylormadegolf.com/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-TMaG-Library/default/v1463473265710/docs/productspecs/R9TP_B_Iron_SS.pdf

Edited March 13, 2024 by mgoblue83

[st1800e]

1 hour ago, mgoblue83 said:

I've never seen it in action but I've read about it multiple times on this website.

Please provide links to what you’ve read.  

[Guest RobS]

4 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

I've never seen it in action but I've read about it multiple times on this website. Maybe someone else knows more about it?

 

The example that I reference earlier is the Taylormade B-Stamp irons. I'm not sure if they produce them anymore but they are basically a zero offset version of the iron model. I've personally hit the Taylormade R9 and Taylormade R9 B-Stamp irons side by side and can confirm that the B-Stamp have the same bounce as the original with all of the offset pressed out. It's a true zero offset spec and I'm 99% sure Taylormade isn't producing that version separately. Same heads just pressed out.

 

https://www.taylormadegolf.com/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-TMaG-Library/default/v1463473265710/docs/productspecs/R9TP_B_Iron_SS.pdf

The R9P B was a different head than the R9TP is a few ways other than the offset.  While Ping uses the same heads for standard, retro and power spec, many years back, with the right connections, you could get Ping Wrx to press out the offset on certain models.  Last I heard of them doing this was 15 or so years ago back when they were still manufacturing their heads in house.  At the time, it was around $75 per club.  It wasn't common at the time. I saw it only once, on a set of i5's.  I'm not aware of any OEM that has or currently does anything similar.

[mgoblue83]

15 hours ago, RobS said:

The R9P B was a different head than the R9TP is a few ways other than the offset.  While Ping uses the same heads for standard, retro and power spec, many years back, with the right connections, you could get Ping Wrx to press out the offset on certain models.  Last I heard of them doing this was 15 or so years ago back when they were still manufacturing their heads in house.  At the time, it was around $75 per club.  It wasn't common at the time. I saw it only once, on a set of i5's.  I'm not aware of any OEM that has or currently does anything similar.

 

Thank you for the info on Ping.

 

My mistake, I looked up the heads and it was indeed the TP model that I was referring to. R9 TP and R9 TP B-Stamp are identical except for the offset pressed out. I hit them side by side. 

[Strategery]

On 3/12/2024 at 5:42 PM, mgoblue83 said:

Thanks for the video. Very cool!

I was pretty sure that most OEMs press the heads using hydraulic presses (exactly what it sounds like) but I’ve never seen it in action so could be wrong.
 

An example is the old Taylormade B stamp irons had all of the offset pressed out of them. Can’t be done with just a bending bar.

That loft/lie bending process looks barbaric for a modern mass production facility. Every iron head needing adjustment has a human whaling on a pry bar. It clearly works; I'm impressed by their dedication.

[Guest RobS]

2 hours ago, mgoblue83 said:

 

Thank you for the info on Ping.

 

My mistake, I looked up the heads and it was indeed the TP model that I was referring to. R9 TP and R9 TP B-Stamp are identical except for the offset pressed out. I hit them side by side. 

The R9 TP and R9 TP-B are totally different heads.  The R9 TP were stainless steel, had VCC (hollow) long irons and different face construction.  The B's were 8260 carbon steel, solid construction through the set.  

[SkolChicago]

I heard that clubs that are bent will want to return to their original cast position over time, is that true? Ordered i525s and got a 6i power spec and might bend the PW strong as well. Suppose this is something I can just get routinely checked.

[CROUSE99]

8 hours ago, SkolChicago said:

I heard that clubs that are bent will want to return to their original cast position over time, is that true? Ordered i525s and got a 6i power spec and might bend the PW strong as well. Suppose this is something I can just get routinely checked.

That seems to be an urban myth that started about Ping Eye 2's and other clubs cast from 17-4 stainless.  If the club maker is able to bend them, they will stay bent.  A lot of club makers will tell you that the myth started when people didn't notice that the club head had slipped in the bending machine.  Ping themselves bend their irons from standard specs. i.e. a green dot iron head started out as a black dot head and was bent 2 degrees up.  Having said that, it is always a good idea to check your lies and lofts from time to time, especially if you suddenly start getting wonky gaps in your distances.

[Port and Starboard]

17 hours ago, SkolChicago said:

I heard that clubs that are bent will want to return to their original cast position over time, is that true?

 

Cast irons will pretty much remain at the same adjusted lofts and lies unless they are constantly beating the ground (hardpan) or getting slammed in a temper tantrum. Some people will say that the cast metal has memory and the irons will return to their original set, but I have never experienced this and I've tweaked my fair share of cast irons over the years.

 

 

The only irons I routinely checked after bending were my old Macgregor Tourney M85 forged blades.  The lofts would go about 1-2 degrees weak in the 7-PW after a season of playing off of hardpan every day with my digger swing.

Edited March 15, 2024 by Port and Starboard

[NRJyzr]

On 3/13/2024 at 11:05 AM, mgoblue83 said:

 

I've never seen it in action but I've read about it multiple times on this website. Maybe someone else knows more about it?

 

The example that I reference earlier is the Taylormade B-Stamp irons. I'm not sure if they produce them anymore but they are basically a zero offset version of the iron model. I've personally hit the Taylormade R9 and Taylormade R9 B-Stamp irons side by side and can confirm that the B-Stamp have the same bounce as the original with all of the offset pressed out. It's a true zero offset spec and I'm 99% sure Taylormade isn't producing that version separately. Same heads just pressed out.

 

https://www.taylormadegolf.com/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-TMaG-Library/default/v1463473265710/docs/productspecs/R9TP_B_Iron_SS.pdf

 

Considering the B heads have different physical characteristics, I would suggest it's almost certainly the case that they are different heads.

 

[Anser3]

On 3/15/2024 at 5:01 AM, Port and Starboard said:

 

Cast irons will pretty much remain at the same adjusted lofts and lies unless they are constantly beating the ground (hardpan) or getting slammed in a temper tantrum. Some people will say that the cast metal has memory and the irons will return to their original set, but I have never experienced this and I've tweaked my fair share of cast irons over the years.

 

 

The only irons I routinely checked after bending were my old Macgregor Tourney M85 forged blades.  The lofts would go about 1-2 degrees weak in the 7-PW after a season of playing off of hardpan every day with my digger swing.

 

Ping uses a rubber mallet to "set" the lie.  This keeps them from reverting.  There is an older Ping factory tour video where they explain this.  They even reference the "metal has a memory" line. 

[Port and Starboard]

5 hours ago, Anser3 said:

 

Ping uses a rubber mallet to "set" the lie.  This keeps them from reverting.  There is an older Ping factory tour video where they explain this.  They even reference the "metal has a memory" line. 

 

The metallurgy in various grades of stainless steel all react different  (17-4 - 431 - 304 etc.) and there is some (minute amount) of memory depending on the material from what I have learned the past couple years. 

 

https://www.associatedsteel.com/does-your-stainless-remember-things/#:~:text=Those grades of stainless (304L,the straightness they “remember”.

 

I never had a problem with a Ping iron after being adjusted.

 

Yeah, a mallet or a quick jerking action with a hosel tool is the best way to do it.  You can almost breath on most forged irons to adjust them.

[Nessism]

I love Ping, and I've hoed by way though way too many iron sets since joining the faithful.  One thing I've learned, is that Ping is far from infallible when it comes to building clubs to spec.  I check and adjust each set, and I've yet to see a full set with all clubs on spec.  Mizuno is far better in my experience.