I'd like to play with lighter clubs, but my swing reponds best to heavier clubs

[hollabachgt]

 

I'm getting a bit older, not able to practice or play as much as once did. Last year I decided to build a new set of irons using graphite shafts, hoping the decreased weight would be favorable to me in the long run.

 

Traditionally I've played my irons at a D5 swingweight, when migrating from a 130g steel shaft to a 95g graphite shaft I made sure the final build was still at D5. I played with them last year and played ok. This winter I was struggling at the range and decided to go back to another set of steel shafted irons and started to hit them much better. At the same time I changed my driver shaft from 60g to 85g and instantly my dispersion tightened way up.After a month of pretty good ball-striking I took a handful of graphite irons back to the range to compare them head to head. After just a few swings It was clear, heavier was better. My swing just seems to be so much more consistent with a more repeatable miss using the heavier shaft. I know I'm comparing 2 different heads on 2 different shafts, but the similarity I've seen with the weight change in my driver shaft leads me to believe its the shaft weight that is contributing the most.

 

So here is my question, Is there anything I can do to help make the lighter shafts work for me, or am I bound to stay in heavier shafts going forward?

[Guest RobS]

  I'd suggest trying something in the 110-115 gram range.  Dropping 35 grams in shaft weight is going to be a major, potentially difficult, adjustment for most players.

[Binson]

If you don't have ailments or aches and pains you want to decrease after a round, why not play what works best for ya.

[ChipNRun]

9 minutes ago, RobS said:

  I'd suggest trying something in the 110-115 gram range.  Dropping 35 grams in shaft weight is going to be a major, potentially difficult, adjustment for most players.

 

This is along the lines of what club designer Tom Wishon advises. Tom cautions that when golfers decide to lighten shafts, they often go too light the first time.

[Howard_Jones]

51 minutes ago, hollabachgt said:

 

I'm getting a bit older, not able to practice or play as much as once did. Last year I decided to build a new set of irons using graphite shafts, hoping the decreased weight would be favorable to me in the long run.

 

Traditionally I've played my irons at a D5 swingweight, when migrating from a 130g steel shaft to a 95g graphite shaft I made sure the final build was still at D5. I played with them last year and played ok. This winter I was struggling at the range and decided to go back to another set of steel shafted irons and started to hit them much better. At the same time I changed my driver shaft from 60g to 85g and instantly my dispersion tightened way up.After a month of pretty good ball-striking I took a handful of graphite irons back to the range to compare them head to head. After just a few swings It was clear, heavier was better. My swing just seems to be so much more consistent with a more repeatable miss using the heavier shaft. I know I'm comparing 2 different heads on 2 different shafts, but the similarity I've seen with the weight change in my driver shaft leads me to believe its the shaft weight that is contributing the most.

 

So here is my question, Is there anything I can do to help make the lighter shafts work for me, or am I bound to stay in heavier shafts going forward?

Use lead tape on the shaft, if shaft flex and profile feels good. then you can dial in whats the right wgt range for you is, and if you don't mind to play with lead tape on the shafts, you don't have to change shafts.

Find the approximate middle of the shaft, set a mark there.
Now take lets say 10 or 20 grams of lead tape, align the middle of the tape with the middle mark on the shaft, so the tape goes "head to grip" on the underside of the shaft (invisible from address)

Edited March 13, 2024 by Howard_Jones

[hollabachgt]

6 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

Uee lead tape on the shaft, if shaft flex and profile feels good. then you can dial in whats the right wgt range for you is, and if you dont mind to play with lead tape on the shafts, you dont have to change shafts.

Find the approximate middle of the shaft, set a mark there.
Now take lets say 10 or 20 grams of lead tape, align the middle of the tape with the middle mark on the shaft, so the tape goes "head to grip" on the underside of the shaft (invisible from address)

Thanks Howard,

 

Just to confirm, by middle of shaft you are speaking of the actual measured middle of the shaft , or the balance point of the shaft.
 

[jda]

In general, use lighter shafts when you lose strength.  As long as you have some strength, then heavier shafts almost always will be better.  Even if the swing is a bit slower, the mass behind the ball makes it move better.  Heavier shafts also are easier to control for nearly everybody.

 

Forget about swing speed and focus on ball speed after good contact.

 

Anybody can swing a lighter club faster, but almost nobody will be better with that.

[Howard_Jones]

2 minutes ago, hollabachgt said:

Thanks Howard,

 

Just to confirm, by middle of shaft you are speaking of the actual measured middle of the shaft , or the balance point of the shaft.
 

Most shafts on the marked has a BP very close to the middle, and if we change to a higher shaft wgt, BP will often move a tad UP, but still close to the middle. For testing and tuning, the middle of the shaft is "good enough"

 

[Pepperturbo]

1 hour ago, hollabachgt said:

 

I'm getting a bit older, not able to practice or play as much as once did. Last year I decided to build a new set of irons using graphite shafts, hoping the decreased weight would be favorable to me in the long run.

 

Traditionally I've played my irons at a D5 swingweight, when migrating from a 130g steel shaft to a 95g graphite shaft I made sure the final build was still at D5. I played with them last year and played ok. This winter I was struggling at the range and decided to go back to another set of steel shafted irons and started to hit them much better. At the same time I changed my driver shaft from 60g to 85g and instantly my dispersion tightened way up.After a month of pretty good ball-striking I took a handful of graphite irons back to the range to compare them head to head. After just a few swings It was clear, heavier was better. My swing just seems to be so much more consistent with a more repeatable miss using the heavier shaft. I know I'm comparing 2 different heads on 2 different shafts, but the similarity I've seen with the weight change in my driver shaft leads me to believe its the shaft weight that is contributing the most.

 

So here is my question, Is there anything I can do to help make the lighter shafts work for me, or am I bound to stay in heavier shafts going forward?

I am surprised you took 95g graphite to D5 SW.  Finding the right composite shafts is critical to playing good golf.  To me, 120g PX 6.0 steel are the best shafts, they feel right; only wear and tear on my body isn't to my liking.  Tempo drives my swing weight.  Mine is faster than normal and best iron SW is D3 or D2.  Driver shaft weights and swing weights are not necessarily relatable to irons.  My driver and 3wd are D4.

 

But for those reasons, I switched to composite five years ago.  Started with SF i110cw S, in 2-PW, and i125cw S in wedges.  Since then, I have switched composite shafts four times, and hoped to have settled on my current setup.  Shaft flex is a stable "S", and getting proper swing weight is D3 & D2, both were easy to get with MMT shafts.  My 3i & 4i are 85g, but SW was D3, rest of my irons are D2.  What's been challenging was finding the right shaft weight and proper distances.  

 

As to your question, all you can do is find the proper weight composite shafts that can be swing weight wise, made to feel similar to steel.  I suggest you look at SF i110cw and MMT 125 shafts: I played both.  They can be easily swing weighted to trick your mind into thinking they feel heavier; least that's what I've done to match my faster tempo.  Then all you have to do is be patient while getting the feel for them, least that's what I am doing.

Edited March 13, 2024 by Pepperturbo

[jvincent]

1 hour ago, hollabachgt said:

So here is my question, Is there anything I can do to help make the lighter shafts work for me, or am I bound to stay in heavier shafts going forward?

 

As someone who has tried the lighter shaft rabbit hole many times, the answer I would give is you're stuck with them. 

[Howard_Jones]

15 minutes ago, jda said:

In general, use lighter shafts when you lose strength.  As long as you have some strength, then heavier shafts almost always will be better.  Even if the swing is a bit slower, the mass behind the ball makes it move better.  Heavier shafts also are easier to control for nearly everybody.

 

Forget about swing speed and focus on ball speed after good contact.

 

Anybody can swing a lighter club faster, but almost nobody will be better with that.

We often see a gain of club speed when adding weight, so lighter is not always faster, but you are 100% correct, its ball speed that matters (good impact), and impact will suffer when weight is too low.

2 days ago, my former student Thomas Rosenberg posted a case on his FB wall
Shaft weight change from 90 to 105 grams = gain 14 meters carry (15.4 yards) on the players #6 iron (1 yard per gram shaft wgt)

https://www.facebook.com/madebyrosenberg

Edited March 13, 2024 by Howard_Jones

[Bella Woods]

My opinion is that you should generally play the stiffest (and heaviest) shaft that you can flex properly

in your swing. I think you get the max distance and best dispersion/accuracy. 

 

In your original post, you only mentioned shaft gram weight and the swingweight of the clubs. Were the

lengths of the graphite shafted clubs an inch or so longer or the same length? I wonder if the flex of the

graphite shafted clubs was weaker as a result. How did you get the graphite irons to D-5? Adding length

(or weight to the head) could weaken the listed flex of the iron shaft. If your swing speed is to much for

a weaker shaft - you get dispersion issues..... Re: you may have created a weaker shaft flex....

 

Have you put the graphite shafts on a frequency analyzer one on one against the heavier steel shafts?   

[phizzy30]

I'm also getting older and have tried lighter weight shafts in the past and they just don't work for me.  I do best with 125-130 gram shafts for irons and 70 gram/driver, 80 gram/fairway even though I've lost some speed in my swing over the years.  I tend to hit the ball all over the face with lighter shafts and have trouble with face control.  Heavier shafts help significantly with dispersion and contact. 

[hollabachgt]

16 hours ago, Bella Woods said:

My opinion is that you should generally play the stiffest (and heaviest) shaft that you can flex properly

in your swing. I think you get the max distance and best dispersion/accuracy. 

 

In your original post, you only mentioned shaft gram weight and the swingweight of the clubs. Were the

lengths of the graphite shafted clubs an inch or so longer or the same length? I wonder if the flex of the

graphite shafted clubs was weaker as a result. How did you get the graphite irons to D-5? Adding length

(or weight to the head) could weaken the listed flex of the iron shaft. If your swing speed is to much for

a weaker shaft - you get dispersion issues..... Re: you may have created a weaker shaft flex....

 

Have you put the graphite shafts on a frequency analyzer one on one against the heavier steel shafts?   

 

I traditionally play my irons 1/2" over standard, and these irons were no exception. Anticipating the amount of weight I would need to

put near the head to bump up the swingweight up I tipped each shaft an extra 1/2". My thought was to move them into the Stiff + territory

with the weight bringing them back down to Stiff.

 

Its possible that they are playing softer than desired, I have not measured the frequency of the shaft to compare.

 

[Stuart_G]

19 hours ago, jda said:

Even if the swing is a bit slower, the mass behind the ball makes it move better. 

 

I agree with your recommendation and the point you were trying to make - but this particular reason isn't really true when it comes to shaft weight.   Only head weight (and speed) contributes to ball speed.   The shaft weight is all about rhythm and tempo and timing aspects of the swing (among other things) - so it certainly is a major influence to the club head speed and how the head gets to the ball - and not always in the way one might expect.   But the shaft mass doesn't play any significant part right at impact.

[jda]

That post above by Howard Jones seems to indicate that 15g in shaft weight added significant distance for one of his guys.  Probably not all the weight, IMO, but I cannot read it, so I would not know about any nuance.

 

I have never added shaft weight without adding head weight.  I add weight to the head and then add under the grip to balance out the feel - no formula, just feel.  I usually add about 20-30 to my driver head and then a solid wrap under the grip is about right for me.  My current driver is about 380g.

 

I will say that I have never had any luck with a bad shaft trying to stay stable with more weight.  You need a good, solid shaft.  I am a 757, White and Tensei 1K guy and these respond well to weight.  Tried this with some made-for shafts and they were like swinging a yo-yo on a string.  I usually play x100 in irons and these don't seem to care at all about weight.

[gvogel]

21 hours ago, hollabachgt said:

 

I'm getting a bit older, not able to practice or play as much as once did. Last year I decided to build a new set of irons using graphite shafts, hoping the decreased weight would be favorable to me in the long run.

 

Traditionally I've played my irons at a D5 swingweight, when migrating from a 130g steel shaft to a 95g graphite shaft I made sure the final build was still at D5. I played with them last year and played ok. This winter I was struggling at the range and decided to go back to another set of steel shafted irons and started to hit them much better. At the same time I changed my driver shaft from 60g to 85g and instantly my dispersion tightened way up.After a month of pretty good ball-striking I took a handful of graphite irons back to the range to compare them head to head. After just a few swings It was clear, heavier was better. My swing just seems to be so much more consistent with a more repeatable miss using the heavier shaft. I know I'm comparing 2 different heads on 2 different shafts, but the similarity I've seen with the weight change in my driver shaft leads me to believe its the shaft weight that is contributing the most.

 

So here is my question, Is there anything I can do to help make the lighter shafts work for me, or am I bound to stay in heavier shafts going forward?

If you went to 95 gram Steelfibers, you went to a light, stiff tip shaft.  You lose all sense of the shaft working (or not working, as the case may be).  I tried that experiment some years ago, and ended up back in Titleist's 105T shaft which were much more conducive to good contact for me.  The 105T is a 108 gram shaft with a softer tip.  I also think that a heavier shaft is more suited to good tempo; I think that I get too fast in transition with a lighter shaft.

 

If you want to experiment one more time with Steelfibers, go heavier than 95 grams, and also go down a stiffness, since they play stiff to shaft flex.  Maybe try a 110 regular in the Steelfiber.

 

Bet you never had this problem with hickories.

[TKS]

On 3/13/2024 at 11:22 AM, ChipNRun said:

 

This is along the lines of what club designer Tom Wishon advises. Tom cautions that when golfers decide to lighten shafts, they often go too light the first time.

Been there, done that.  A man has to know his limits.  Mine went from 128gr and ended at 105gr + added headweight. 

[mizuno player]

I'm dealing with this now. I went from dg x100 almost exclusively for 30 years and on off 6.5 to the Fuji pro 115i graphite. I love the feel of the shaft and performance appeared to be good. 

 

When I looked back on my year my GIR was the worst I can remember.  I noticed I had to played punch shots to get the desired results.

 

Starting playing around with a heavier shaft and on trackman my dispersion is much better.  So is distance on full shots. My concern will be if my elbow issues return. 

 

Going lighter can cause issues you currently do not have. If you don't notice any issues other than you "think" you should go lighter id caution. This is just based on my experience. 

[Stuart_G]

Sometimes bumping up the swing weight can help compensate for the shaft weight being a bit too light.   It's not exactly the same so it may not work or might only be able to do so much - but it never hurts to play around with some lead tape and see what happens.

 

[SBH9458]

On 3/13/2024 at 4:45 PM, phizzy30 said:

I'm also getting older and have tried lighter weight shafts in the past and they just don't work for me.  I do best with 125-130 gram shafts for irons and 70 gram/driver, 80 gram/fairway even though I've lost some speed in my swing over the years.  I tend to hit the ball all over the face with lighter shafts and have trouble with face control.  Heavier shafts help significantly with dispersion and contact. 

True for me as well, same reasons and same weights for shafts.  I’ve tried to go lighter and it did not work out. Maybe some day, but not today. 

[EddieEdwards]

I'm 10 yrds shorter and less consistant with 90g shafts vs 120-130g shafts.

[GL3]

Just swapped my Mims from Modus 125x (129.5) to 115x (119.5), and decreased grip weight by 14.5 grams.  Wanted D4 (what I had in the 125’s) but ended up at D6.  I wanted something just a bit lighter but same swing weight.  I’ve also got a set of 105x (112) to try if I haven’t found it with the 115’s.  

I have the most success on the course when I am clubbing up and making these 3/4 trapped/flighted swings.  Very good in the 7-LW, but I can’t make the same swing in the top end clubs.  2-6 are full swing clubs, but in the same shaft and weight class has caused 20 yard higher slices (blocks).  My thought is the issue is started in the transition and caused by the heavier weight.  Just can’t wrap my head around doing a 3/4 swing shots in the top end of the bag.  So I decided let’s try something lighter for the top end and hope it doesn’t impact the bottom end.  
 

All this has lead me to debating 105’s in 2-6, 115’s 7-GW, 125’s in my 54° and 58°.   But my brain is in shambles trying to think that build through.  Has anyone experimented with this type of set up from top to bottom? 

[NRJyzr]

On 3/15/2024 at 4:30 AM, Stuart_G said:

Sometimes bumping up the swing weight can help compensate for the shaft weight being a bit too light.   It's not exactly the same so it may not work or might only be able to do so much - but it never hurts to play around with some lead tape and see what happens.

 

 

I was going to chime in with a similar comment.  I guess I'm just too slow.  🙂

 

The idea I've been using with lower shaft weight is something I borrowed from Dave Tutelman.  His idea was to take one third of the shaft weight reduction and add it to the clubhead.  I don't use this literally in my application of the concept, rather a guide, and I've dumbed it down to how many swingweight points I increase the set, over what I've found is my preference for a particular set of clubs.

 

I also decrease swingweight as the shaft weight increases.  

 

Tutelman's idea was to try mimic the "heft" as well as one can for a club that is seeing a significant change in shaft weight.

 

For the most part, it seems to work.  Though recently, I've been finding similar to some comment here, that I should consider heading back to heavier shafts.  I'm getting better results with something heavier than with 90-something iron shafts.

 

[Stuart_G]

21 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:

Tutelman's idea was to try mimic the "heft" as well as one can for a club that is seeing a significant change in shaft weight.

 

(If memory serves) Tutelman's idea was actually to try to keep the MOI of the club the same.  At least that's how the rough math works out.  But that's not really the same thing as the heft feel - or rather it's (IMO) and oversimplification of it.   That just really deals with the resistance to rotational motion of the club - but it doesn't account for the resistance to the linear motion of the club.   In a swing - both types of resistances are present.   Certain individuals may be more or less sensitive to one or the other due to differences in mechanics.    But it really comes down to a need to properly fit oneself to both weight specs individually.   Trading one off for the other may work in some cases but not all cases.

[NRJyzr]

Just now, Stuart_G said:

 

(If memory serves) Tutelman's idea was actually to try to keep the MOI of the club the same.  At least that's how the rough math works out.  But that's not really the same thing as the heft feel - or rather it's (IMO) and oversimplification of it.   That just really deals with the resistance to rotational motion of the club - but it doesn't account for the resistance to the linear motion of the club.   In a swing - both types of resistances are present.   Certain individuals may be more or less sensitive to one or the other due to differences in mechanics.    But it really comes down to a need to properly fit oneself to both weight specs individually.   Trading one off for the other may work in some cases but not all cases.

 

I admit I was doing sloppy paraphrasing.  He started by talking about heft, then brought up the idea, and spoke about the club MOI.  

 

Lazy Saturday I guess. LOL

 

[Pepperturbo]

On 3/15/2024 at 2:30 AM, Stuart_G said:

Sometimes bumping up the swing weight can help compensate for the shaft weight being a bit too light.   It's not exactly the same so it may not work or might only be able to do so much - but it never hurts to play around with some lead tape and see what happens.

 

Good advice.

 

Turns out, swing weight has always been a significant factor for me; D2 on both MMT 85S and MMT 105S seems to make the difference.  I still like MMT 125S, only heavier shafts are no more.

[ShortGolfer]

Pay for a fitting and go in with an open mind.  Try different shaft flexes as well as different shaft weights.

If you can, find a fitter you can trust and don't keep track of what you are swinging, so you don't bias the results.

[Ger21]

9 hours ago, GL3 said:

All this has lead me to debating 105’s in 2-6, 115’s 7-GW, 125’s in my 54° and 58°.   But my brain is in shambles trying to think that build through.  Has anyone experimented with this type of set up from top to bottom? 

AMT White. If you soft step, it'll drop the longest iron to just under 110g.

Edited March 16, 2024 by Ger21

[sm_watts]

On 3/16/2024 at 6:50 AM, GL3 said:

 

All this has lead me to debating 105’s in 2-6, 115’s 7-GW, 125’s in my 54° and 58°.   But my brain is in shambles trying to think that build through.  Has anyone experimented with this type of set up from top to bottom? 

I’m similar, just a weight step lower: I go 95 gram graphite in 6-7-8, then 105 gram graphite in 9-P-G, then 115 gram steel in the wedges.