Swing update

[Rsqu]

I think I swing better outside than I do inside. Not sure if this is true or not but comparing my recent inside vs outside swings my swing outside looks better. Just wanted to see if anyone else can relate to this but I’ll put my swings below too. Inside is OTT and my over swing comes back but outside seems pretty controlled. I changed my grip to be more neutral on the inside clip. Grip on the 

outside clip was a weaker grip. 

   

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

Not enough wrist c0ck early in the swing, too deep and flat, hips max out too early, loss of width, probably tilting towards the target at the top. This is impossible to reconcile on the downswing so you get incredibly stuck. 
 

You need to create a stable and compact backswing and learn how space is managed through transition. 

It’s impossible to hit the ball consistently from here. Hopefully @Valtiel will be along for a deep dive.

 

Are you working on anything with a pro? 

Edited April 12, 2024 by TheDeanAbides

[GoGoErky]

I think your outside swing gets you even more stick than your inside swing. But they are pretty much the same swing 

[Rsqu]

3 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Not enough wrist c0ck early in the swing, too deep and flat, hips max out too early, loss of width, probably tilting towards the target at the top. This is impossible to reconcile on the downswing so you get incredibly stuck. 
 

You need to create a stable and compact backswing and learn how space is managed through transition. 

It’s impossible to hit the ball consistently from here. Hopefully @Valtiel will be along for a deep dive.

 

Are you working on anything with a pro? 

Not working with anyone yet. I want to post an old swing video (focusing on the backswing) because my positioning at the top was pretty good. Want to see if anyone can see any major differences between that and my current backswing. I’m not sure what I changed or why I did it but hopefully someone can see something. 

 

 

 

[Valtiel]

7 hours ago, Rsqu said:

Not working with anyone yet. I want to post an old swing video (focusing on the backswing) because my positioning at the top was pretty good. Want to see if anyone can see any major differences between that and my current backswing. I’m not sure what I changed or why I did it but hopefully someone can see something. 

 

 

 

All of the swings you've posted since your first thread back in November have the same basic pattern of severe lack of wrist set, so all the comments about that are still relevant as they haven't been addressed:



The top left swing is technically the "best", but it still has way too little vertical wrist hinge. The original swing (grey shirt/pants) is definitely the "worst", so you have made progress, but fractional compared to how far you need to go.

All of this was already pointed out and it hasn't stuck as i'd argue the top middle swing (recent) is almost as "bad" as the original one from November, it will help to give a very specific singular "assignment" so to speak.



This is your "target" for now:

From down the line (camera angle aligned with your foot line)
- Hands covering the right shoulder
- Shaft plane pointing somewhere close to the ball (At it, a little inside it, or a little outside it)

From face on
- Left arm parallel to the ground
- Shaft plane perpendicular to the ground (straight up)

You will be forced to hinge your wrists more correctly and take your hands back on a neutral path  to achieve this, and from that point you'll want to practice hitting balls. DO NOT SWING FURTHER THAN THIS. If you video yourself and you go beyond this length, swing shorter. If the club isn't pointing at the sky at left arm parallel, hinge your wrists up more until it is. Keep working towards this goal until you can reliably make practice swings that approximate this position, then introduce a ball and do the same thing because it will likely change with a ball present. If you can, please film DTL and Face on with consistent angles as your camera angle tends to vary a lot and that will make future comparisons difficult. The camera should always be aligned with your feet and around waist high when shooting down the line, and the same height but directly in front of you when filming face on.

This likely won't be much fun but it will be necessary to improve at this point.

Edited April 12, 2024 by Valtiel

[TheDeanAbides]

To add to @Valtiel, you’re going to have to feel like you hinge your wrists immediately as your takeaway thought. It’ll feel like all you’re doing is hinging your wrists into a flappy half swing. This feeling will be alien and uncomfortable, and if you don’t feel like that it’s almost definitely wrong. 
 

Take all ideas of a one piece takeaway and throw them in the sea. 

[Valtiel]

33 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

To add to @Valtiel, you’re going to have to feel like you hinge your wrists immediately as your takeaway thought. It’ll feel like all you’re doing is hinging your wrists into a flappy half swing. This feeling will be alien and uncomfortable, and if you don’t feel like that it’s almost definitely wrong. 
 

Take all ideas of a one piece takeaway and throw them in the sea. 

[Rsqu]

23 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

All of the swings you've posted since your first thread back in November have the same basic pattern of severe lack of wrist set, so all the comments about that are still relevant as they haven't been addressed:



The top left swing is technically the "best", but it still has way too little vertical wrist hinge. The original swing (grey shirt/pants) is definitely the "worst", so you have made progress, but fractional compared to how far you need to go.

All of this was already pointed out and it hasn't stuck as i'd argue the top middle swing (recent) is almost as "bad" as the original one from November, it will help to give a very specific singular "assignment" so to speak.



This is your "target" for now:

From down the line (camera angle aligned with your foot line)
- Hands covering the right shoulder
- Shaft plane pointing somewhere close to the ball (At it, a little inside it, or a little outside it)

From face on
- Left arm parallel to the ground
- Shaft plane perpendicular to the ground (straight up)

You will be forced to hinge your wrists more correctly and take your hands back on a neutral path  to achieve this, and from that point you'll want to practice hitting balls. DO NOT SWING FURTHER THAN THIS. If you video yourself and you go beyond this length, swing shorter. If the club isn't pointing at the sky at left arm parallel, hinge your wrists up more until it is. Keep working towards this goal until you can reliably make practice swings that approximate this position, then introduce a ball and do the same thing because it will likely change with a ball present. If you can, please film DTL and Face on with consistent angles as your camera angle tends to vary a lot and that will make future comparisons difficult. The camera should always be aligned with your feet and around waist high when shooting down the line, and the same height but directly in front of you when filming face on.

This likely won't be much fun but it will be necessary to improve at this point.

Thank you again for the feedback. It probably seems like I don’t pay attention to what you say but what usually happens is I give up because whatever should be working doesn’t but I’m obviously too used to my swing. It makes it hard to quickly change and I need to realize this. I have changed my grip recently, I never knew what it should look like in a first person POV. Now I’m pretty confident in my grip and I’ll try the faldo wrist set drill again. I’ll update again soon. 

[GoGoErky]

4 minutes ago, Rsqu said:

Thank you again for the feedback. It probably seems like I don’t pay attention to what you say but what usually happens is I give up because whatever should be working doesn’t but I’m obviously too used to my swing. It makes it hard to quickly change and I need to realize this. I have changed my grip recently, I never knew what it should look like in a first person POV. Now I’m pretty confident in my grip and I’ll try the faldo wrist set drill again. I’ll update again soon. 

Leaving this here for something to thing about.

 

 

change doesn’t happen overnight and you have to realize it will take weeks and weeks but over there course of those weeks improvements will slowly happen.

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

16 minutes ago, Rsqu said:

Thank you again for the feedback. It probably seems like I don’t pay attention to what you say but what usually happens is I give up because whatever should be working doesn’t but I’m obviously too used to my swing. It makes it hard to quickly change and I need to realize this. I have changed my grip recently, I never knew what it should look like in a first person POV. Now I’m pretty confident in my grip and I’ll try the faldo wrist set drill again. I’ll update again soon. 

I say this quite a lot, but it's true. The best work you can do is without a ball, and often without a club. Just practice the movements in front of a mirror or wherever you are. None of us can hit 800 balls a day, so we absolutely need to put five to ten minutes in at points throughout the day on learning the new patterns without getting caught up with ballflight. 

 

This work really makes a huge difference for integration of new movements. 

[MonteScheinblum]

Arms accelerating extremely late.

 

REALLY behind in the sequence

 

As others have said, late wrist set leading to arm over run making the arms being late even more dire.

 

Downswing takes about .20 seconds.

 

In elite swings the arms accelerate .02 after the hips.  Yours is 3 to 4 times that.

 

Wrist set better and adapt the Jack Nicklaus keep your back to the target as long as you can or the Rose stay closed until you get down to p6.

 

 

[Rsqu]

2 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Arms accelerating extremely late.

 

REALLY behind in the sequence

 

As others have said, late wrist set leading to arm over run making the arms being late even more dire.

 

Downswing takes about .20 seconds.

 

In elite swings the arms accelerate .02 after the hips.  Yours is 3 to 4 times that.

 

Wrist set better and adapt the Jack Nicklaus keep your back to the target as long as you can or the Rose stay closed until you get down to p6.

 

 

Most people preach hips firing first. I had no idea arms and hips were that close timing wise. Many people misinform others (or I misinterpret) by saying fire the hips first when it’s really just a weight shift and then the hips and arms go together. 

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, Rsqu said:

Most people preach hips firing first. I had no idea arms and hips were that close timing wise. Many people misinform others (or I misinterpret) by saying fire the hips first when it’s really just a weight shift and then the hips and arms go together. 

Yes.  It is impossible to NOT fire the hips first of the feet are connected to the ground 

Edited April 13, 2024 by MonteScheinblum

[Valtiel]

On 4/12/2024 at 1:06 PM, Rsqu said:

Thank you again for the feedback. It probably seems like I don’t pay attention to what you say but what usually happens is I give up because whatever should be working doesn’t but I’m obviously too used to my swing. It makes it hard to quickly change and I need to realize this. I have changed my grip recently, I never knew what it should look like in a first person POV. Now I’m pretty confident in my grip and I’ll try the faldo wrist set drill again. I’ll update again soon. 

 

On 4/12/2024 at 4:15 PM, Rsqu said:

Most people preach hips firing first. I had no idea arms and hips were that close timing wise. Many people misinform others (or I misinterpret) by saying fire the hips first when it’s really just a weight shift and then the hips and arms go together. 

No problem, two main points here:

1) When you're used to "wrong", then "right" feels different and different often feels wrong. Don't let feeling be your guide yet because it needs to first be plugged into good fundamentals to be trusted, and even then there are still pros that regularly need a second or third set of eyes to confirm what they feel. 
2) Every single golf aphorism like you the one mentioned here and the hundred others (hips firing first, hold the lag, squat & jump, one piece takeaway, exit low and left, clear the front side, bow the wrist etc etc) can be under or over done *even* if performed and interpreted correctly, let alone what they can do if misinterpreted (which happens most of the time). They often get talked about in a "you can't do too much" kind of way, but even the most sought after looks/positions can be overdone to the point of damage. They are *all* points on a continuum that require some level of balance, not end goals to be bulldozed towards via maximizing the "feel". You may need to exaggerate feels to get you away from certain extremes like the kind you're stuck in now, but some point you'll arrive at "neutral" or thereabouts and you'll need to learn how to stay there. 

Getting back to what I recommended, here is Adam using this exact thing into the wind. These swings are a litmus test in many important ways, because when everything is generally working as it should be, they are actually quite comfortable and easy. But when your fundamentals aren't good these become not only harder, but often times not even possible. It's super common in chronic over-swingers with late/incorrect wrist hinging and/or severe clubpath issues (of which you have both) to not even have any concept of where "left arm parallel" even is, let alone how to swing there and back. It's a position that you can't even really hit the ball from. The problem is that these are basic and boring fundamentals that don't sound important on paper *until* you've picked up the golf club and just started building a swing without any of these things in mind. Then you end up with something quite broken that you can make due with, but when you go to change anything you have no idea where to go. Like I said in #1 above, all of your neutral "feels" are basically wrong. Your default takeaway is a mile inside and flat with no proper wrist hinging, and your default backswing is significantly longer to buy you time to compensate for that. If you made a "left arm parallel" swing with your current move, you'd have no power, poor low point control, and would likely be coming from way too far inside, hence recommending to change all those incorrect positions to the basic model I posted so you can know what they feel like, and thus work your way out of the problems caused by the incorrect positions. 

Edited April 16, 2024 by Valtiel

[Rsqu]

18 hours ago, Valtiel said:

 

No problem, two main points here:

1) When you're used to "wrong", then "right" feels different and different often feels wrong. Don't let feeling be your guide yet because it needs to first be plugged into good fundamentals to be trusted, and even then there are still pros that regularly need a second or third set of eyes to confirm what they feel. 
2) Every single golf aphorism like you the one mentioned here and the hundred others (hips firing first, hold the lag, squat & jump, one piece takeaway, exit low and left, clear the front side, bow the wrist etc etc) can be under or over done *even* if performed and interpreted correctly, let alone what they can do of misinterpreted (which happens most of the time). They often get talked about in a "you can't do too much" kind of way, but even the most sought after looks/positions can be overdone to the point of damage. They are *all* points on a continuum that require some level of balance, not end goals to be bulldozed towards via maximizing the "feel". You may need to exaggerate feels to get you away from certain extremes like the kind you're stuck in now, but some point you'll arrive at "neutral" or thereabouts and you'll need to learn how to stay there. 

Getting back to what I recommended, here is Adam using this exact thing into the wind. These swings are a litmus test in many important ways, because when everything is generally working as it should be, they are actually quite comfortable and easy. But when your fundamentals aren't good these become not only harder, but often times not even possible. It's super common in chronic over-swingers with late/incorrect wrist hinging and/or severe clubpath issues (of which you have both) to not even have any concept of where "left arm parallel" even is, let alone how to swing there and back. It's a position that you can't even really hit the ball from. The problem is that these are basic and boring fundamentals that don't sound important on paper *until* you've picked up the golf club and just started building a swing without any of these things in mind. Then you end up with something quite broken that you can make do with, but when you go to change anything you have no idea where to go. Like I said in #1 above, all of your neutral "feels" are basically wrong. Your default takeaway is a mile inside and flat with no proper wrist hinging, and your default backswing is significantly longer to buy you time to compensate for that. If you made a "left arm parallel" swing with your current move, you'd have no power, poor low point control, and would likely be coming from way too far inside, hence recommending to change all those incorrect positions to the basic model I posted so you can know what they feel like, and thus work your way out of the problems caused by the incorrect positions. 

I was watching tigers and morikawas swings because they’re both amazing iron players and morikawas swing had a much more aggressive wrist set than tigers. Rory’s swing is between the two. Should I be trying to replicate Rory’s wrist set? 

[Valtiel]

2 minutes ago, Rsqu said:

I was watching tigers and morikawas swings because they’re both amazing iron players and morikawas swing had a much more aggressive wrist set than tigers. Rory’s swing is between the two. Should I be trying to replicate Rory’s wrist set? 

For now I would just worry about the left arm parallel/vertical club drill and messing with how to get there. Morikawa sets his wrist earlier, as does Rory, and Tiger sets a little later. It’s all personal preference related to feel that you have to develop, chasing that via mimicking a pro isn’t necessary, not at this early stage. 

[slytown]

I think the easiest fix is just begin the backswing with an arm lift and wrist set. It should feel  like you throw the club behind you over your right shoulder. DO NOT TURN YOUR SHOULDERS. Let the throwing motion automatically turn your shoulders. DONT MOVE YOUR LOWER BODY EITHER.

Edited April 15, 2024 by slytown

[Rsqu]

On 4/13/2024 at 6:38 PM, Valtiel said:

For now I would just worry about the left arm parallel/vertical club drill and messing with how to get there. Morikawa sets his wrist earlier, as does Rory, and Tiger sets a little later. It’s all personal preference related to feel that you have to develop, chasing that via mimicking a pro isn’t necessary, not at this early stage. 

I’ve only focused on my wrist hinge and I think it’s gotten to a better point and I’ll put DTL and face on swing below. I know you strictly told me to not swing past parallel but I got a little ahead of myself. I’m gonna guess I’ll regret not listening once you respond. I’ve also noticed that the ball is very far back in my stance, in the video Im adding below I thought the ball was pretty far up in my stance but it’s quite the opposite. This is a new problem. On top of that I’ve been dealing with shanks a little too frequently, would the ball positioning be the main cause of this? I’ll start doing the left arm parallel drill but I Mainly just want to see what you think of my wrist hinge right now. 

 

^ reverse pivoting? 😕

[Valtiel]

4 hours ago, Rsqu said:

I’ve only focused on my wrist hinge and I think it’s gotten to a better point and I’ll put DTL and face on swing below. I know you strictly told me to not swing past parallel but I got a little ahead of myself. I’m gonna guess I’ll regret not listening once you respond. I’ve also noticed that the ball is very far back in my stance, in the video Im adding below I thought the ball was pretty far up in my stance but it’s quite the opposite. This is a new problem. On top of that I’ve been dealing with shanks a little too frequently, would the ball positioning be the main cause of this? I’ll start doing the left arm parallel drill but I Mainly just want to see what you think of my wrist hinge right now. 

 

^ reverse pivoting? 😕

Regarding takeaway/wrist hinge, this is better yes:



It's still a little more inside and IMO there still isn't enough upward right wrist hinging (radial deviation), but the club arrives in a more neutral position plane wise and your hand depth is good too. This is a good marker to keep in mind moving forward. You're still however overswinging and a lot of that is related to setup and sequencing:



Very bad setup and ball position as you noted. Too far back with too much forward shaft lean. You setup like this if you're trying to hit a low hook under a tree.

A number of things are backwards in your body movements. You aren't shifting all here, just spinning in place via ma xing our your right hip rotation immediately. Your left knee also collapses directly in towards the right almost like you're squeezing them together. If the ball is already too far back in your stance AND you don't shift laterally at all in the backswing, you're going to be forced to here:



This lateral shaft is the exact type amount you see in pro swings *first* as a pressure trigger for creating correct rotation. But here it's just happening two stages too late and messing up your ability to sequencing correctly in the downswing. You're also overswinging here a decent amount and still not hinging early enough. Your left knee again is just continuing to collapse inwards as you roll up up on the inside of your left foot. This is forcing you into a kind of reverse pivot move with the upper body.



Everything falls apart in transition and in the downswing. Your hands are a mile behind and a week late and all you can do is emergency flip from here.

This is why I recommended the shorter swings, because you have the coordination and flexibility to make a "bigger" swing but not a single thing is sequenced correctly and your impact position is classic severe flip/scoop. Every "full power" swing you make right now will be broken in these ways and will increase the amount of time it takes to fix. I don't say this to be harsh, i'm trying to save you time here because you're far enough out of position that you need force yourself to start very small so you can learn what the right positions are. You can still make some full swings just for fun, but for now the reality is you likely won't improve much if at all if you keep making them in practice. It may feel like i'm asking you to do this....

 

...and in a way I am, but the path to real improvement for the "young and flexible but way out-of-sequence and late over-swinginger" is one of either months or years depending on how diligent you are about starting from the basics and grinding them out. Half swings, left arm parallel, lots of wrist hinge. Full swings for pleasure, not for business.

[TheDeanAbides]

4 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Regarding takeaway/wrist hinge, this is better yes:



It's still a little more inside and IMO there still isn't enough upward right wrist hinging (radial deviation), but the club arrives in a more neutral position plane wise and your hand depth is good too. This is a good marker to keep in mind moving forward. You're still however overswinging and a lot of that is related to setup and sequencing:



Very bad setup and ball position as you noted. Too far back with too much forward shaft lean. You setup like this if you're trying to hit a low hook under a tree.

A number of things are backwards in your body movements. You aren't shifting all here, just spinning in place via ma xing our your right hip rotation immediately. Your left knee also collapses directly in towards the right almost like you're squeezing them together. If the ball is already too far back in your stance AND you don't shift laterally at all in the backswing, you're going to be forced to here:



This lateral shaft is the exact type amount you see in pro swings *first* as a pressure trigger for creating correct rotation. But here it's just happening two stages too late and messing up your ability to sequencing correctly in the downswing. You're also overswinging here a decent amount and still not hinging early enough. Your left knee again is just continuing to collapse inwards as you roll up up on the inside of your left foot. This is forcing you into a kind of reverse pivot move with the upper body.



Everything falls apart in transition and in the downswing. Your hands are a mile behind and a week late and all you can do is emergency flip from here.

This is why I recommended the shorter swings, because you have the coordination and flexibility to make a "bigger" swing but not a single thing is sequenced correctly and your impact position is classic severe flip/scoop. Every "full power" swing you make right now will be broken in these ways and will increase the amount of time it takes to fix. I don't say this to be harsh, i'm trying to save you time here because you're far enough out of position that you need force yourself to start very small so you can learn what the right positions are. You can still make some full swings just for fun, but for now the reality is you likely won't improve much if at all if you keep making them in practice. It may feel like i'm asking you to do this....

 

...and in a way I am, but the path to real improvement for the "young and flexible but way out-of-sequence and late over-swinginger" is one of either months or years depending on how diligent you are about starting from the basics and grinding them out. Half swings, left arm parallel, lots of wrist hinge. Full swings for pleasure, not for business.

I agree 100% with every word of this. 
 

OP, you might hate doing the left arm parallel swings, but once you have that down the full swing for an iron is literally nothing more than turning the shoulders a couple of inches more. That’s it. Learn to get into a good position here and the backswing is basically over. 

[Rsqu]

3 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I agree 100% with every word of this. 
 

OP, you might hate doing the left arm parallel swings, but once you have that down the full swing for an iron is literally nothing more than turning the shoulders a couple of inches more. That’s it. Learn to get into a good position here and the backswing is basically over. 

I appreciate the feedback once again. I have one more question, would I benefit from a stack and tilt swing? It’s something I might consider when I get to a better place swing wise.

[TheDeanAbides]

13 minutes ago, Rsqu said:

I appreciate the feedback once again. I have one more question, would I benefit from a stack and tilt swing? It’s something I might consider when I get to a better place swing wise.

It’s your swing to do what you want with, but the absolute truth is that there are no short cuts. Personally, I think S&T has huge shortcomings with the longer clubs. I think you’d be better focusing on the things that will help you now. 

[Rsqu]

Hi again

I’ve been practicing a little but I’ve been busy so I’ve only worked on my hips so far (figured they would be easier to correct 🤷‍♂️). I’ll put a video of one of my full swings below. I worked on making sure my lead knee doesn’t collapse towards the other and not locking out my right knee. I also never directly worked on my weight shift so it might still be a step or so behind, not 100% sure. 

 

(will be working on wrist set soon)