Not a fan of GHIN new 9 hole scoring system

[mxskier]

14 minutes ago, Imp said:

 

 

Your Index is/will no longer in accordance with the rules of handicapping if you make that choice and should be treated as such when entering tournaments that require GHIN to participate.

 

I'm not a fan of it either, but I understand the importance of following the rules. If you do this, and many others do this, it will give the USGA false data on how bad an idea the move was to those that post 9 holes, and they'll think it was the best idea ever. Don't let them do that.

Ugh that's a good point. 

 

Maybe they can just incorporate the data of GIR, FIR, putts, etc.. in the app when 18 holes are played (combined) to continue those statistics, since 9 holes won't make much sense from a statistical perspective. At least that'll be some compromise.

[klebs01]

16 minutes ago, Imp said:

 

 

Your Index is/will no longer in accordance with the rules of handicapping if you make that choice and should be treated as such when entering tournaments that require GHIN to participate.

only if he is actually trying to shoot a low score and is playing by the rules of golf in those casual rounds. The easy answer is to just not play by the rules in those rounds so you don’t have to post the score. 

[davep043]

17 hours ago, mxskier said:

I'm playing off 2.5, but that including shooting 0.0 yesterday, 1.9 last week. But the 2 times I've played the 9 holes, I shot 2 over, which was actually shooting exactly my handicap of 3.0 at the time on the front 9, but my differential was assigned 4.2 (rating is 36.5 on front, 36.8 on back) rather than giving me my handicap on the course.

As a 3.0 at the time, your Average Differential was probably around 5.5 to 6.0, so the posted differential of 4.2 is a dang good score.  Its not as low as combining TWO good 9s, but its better than if you had to combine that good 9 with a poor 9.

[davep043]

36 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

only if he is actually trying to shoot a low score and is playing by the rules of golf in those casual rounds. The easy answer is to just not play by the rules in those rounds so you don’t have to post the score. 

Or just Play by the Rules, post by the Handicap Rules, and live with the results.  Anything else is essentially choosing to manipulate the system.

[klebs01]

16 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Or just Play by the Rules, post by the Handicap Rules, and live with the results.  Anything else is essentially choosing to manipulate the system.

not every round needs to be played by the rules. I often play 9 after work and hit multiple balls, hit some extra shots, etc. those rounds clearly shouldn’t be posted based on the rules. 

[davep043]

3 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

not every round needs to be played by the rules. I often play 9 after work and hit multiple balls, hit some extra shots, etc. those rounds clearly shouldn’t be posted based on the rules. 

Yeah, and I understand the value or real practice rounds.  However, you suggest that he specifically choose not to play by the rules for the purpose of avoiding the requirement to post.  That's manipulation.

58 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

The easy answer is to just not play by the rules in those rounds so you don’t have to post the score. 

 

[sjn1]

 Surpised that there is a website claming to be able to make the score differntial caclulations , since the calculation uses proprietary software that the USGA doesnt allow people  (incuding the national handicapping authorities here in the UK) to see inside .Its not working properly here in England yet ,since it was intorudced on 1 April . There are a number of other partsof the new sytesm also not working properly.

 

 In England if ,as has been suggested , a player  posted a couple of bogus low rounds  he/she would quickly find they are  excluded from elite competitions.  There is close montioring of GP scores versus competition scores   so stuff like that is likley to be found out. Also at least 16 of the last 20 scores must be competition scores, otherwise the authority running the elite competition 'may regard the players  handicap as  not reflective of their playing ability'  ,so entry may be refused. 

[kiawah]

1 hour ago, davep043 said:

In Virginia, the posting season is year-round, you did the right thing in posting scores all year round.  The GHIN system will not allow you to post an out-of-season score, it knows the posting season for every jurisdiction.  Yes, you COULD post manually, but as long as you reference the correct course and date, you can only post in-season scores.  And your course's open season may not matter, unless they specifically chose to close off handicap posting

This is absolutely not correct.  The "expected differential" is something close to the average 9-hole differential for all players with that same Handicap Index.  Most players average a few strokes over par, net, they only shoot even par net 20-25% of the time.  So your average 9-hole differential will be a little higher than half your HI.  For low handicappers (less variability) it'll be about 1.2 strokes higher, for higher handicappers (higher variability) it will be closerr to 2 strokes greater than half the HI.  I don't know the "formula", but I did calculations for a number of 9-hole scores posted at my home club, and those are the numbers that emerged.  And for those who ask about the course, the slope, the CR, remember that the differential is the number that results when an actual score is "normalized" for CR and Slope.

 

I think its important to remember that the USGA was not operating in a vacuum in making these changes, this is one more step towards a truly unified World Handicap System.  9-hole scores were handled differently in different parts of the world, now they're handled the same all over, I believe.  I can see positives as well as negatives in the changes, and its likely to be positive for some players and negative for others.  There's not a perfect solution to any of this.

Yeah I thought it was year round but I wasn't totally sure, I know my handicap committee made a big point about posting scores after April 1 but weren't talking much about it before. Thank you for clarifying

[kiawah]

 

45 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Or just Play by the Rules, post by the Handicap Rules, and live with the results.  Anything else is essentially choosing to manipulate the system.

Yeah that's what I'm going to continue doing regardless of whether or not I am thrilled about the results. Just hit ball, find ball, repeat, count them up after, and let the chips fall where they may. I would much rather be a guy who is ineligible to qualify for a couple tournaments than a guy who gets caught manipulating the system

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, davep043 said:

Yeah, and I understand the value or real practice rounds.  However, you suggest that he specifically choose not to play by the rules for the purpose of avoiding the requirement to post.  That's manipulation.

 

 

Firstly, I disagree with the bolded part. That part, as stated by you, is exactly what practicing can be. i.e. a non-serious round to experiment with different swing thoughts, swing paths, club positions, and especially hitting multiple balls (so long as his playing companions don't mind & he's not holding up the course).

 

That is not, in my mind, manipulation. It's practice, provided it's not done "late" in a potential good round - that would be manipulation. i.e. how did the player "enter" the round ?

 

And your statement could be construed as accusing ol' klebsie of suggesting manipulation. *I* didn't get that from what he said.

 

klebs' remarks followed the guy who had initially said he played 9 holes but posted (somehow) 18. THAT is certainly against the posting rules and would be considered manipulation.

 

OR,,,,, as mentioned above, a guy playing really well through say 14 holes, and doesn't want that round to count so he starts missing 2-footers, rolling his ball in play, swinging & missing, etc., and charging himself penalty strokes. Or just not posting. That's manipulation.

 

And quite different from going out, just messing around and "practicing", rather than really trying to play his best, for 9 holes or more. Those rounds should NOT be posted.

 

So I guess, at least in this case, it depends on the player's intent (to manipulate) -  a question for his handicap committee - if he has one.

 

 

Anywho, that brings me to a question. All penalty strokes are included in the player's GHIN posted score and, of course, in the player's event scoring.

 

But why are such penalties, e.g. moving a ball in play, dropping instead of placing, etc. ?

 

I mean, for handicaps, we subtract strokes over net double bogey to make one's handicap more reliable, mitigate sandbagging and such. But such penalties are included in the posted score.

 

Why do you suppose that is ? I mean how hard is it for a cheat to "accidentally" move his ball in play or drop incorrectly & hit himself with a penalty, same as if he hit one OB or into a PA ?

 

Those sorts of penalties, in MY mind, shouldn't go toward a player's post-able handicap score.

 

Just curious.

 

 

Edited April 19, 2024 by nsxguy

[davep043]

32 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

Firstly, I disagree with the bolded part. That part, as stated by you, is exactly what practicing can be. i.e. a non-serious round to experiment with different swing thoughts, swing paths, club positions, and especially hitting multiple balls (so long as his playing companions don't mind & he's not holding up the course).

 

That is not, in my mind, manipulation. It's practice, provided it's not done "late" in a potential good round - that would be manipulation. i.e. how did the player "enter" the round ?

 

And your statement could be construed as accusing ol' klebsie of suggesting manipulation. *I* didn't get that from what he said.

Practicing has a purpose, practice.  Specifically choosing to not play by the rules with the purpose of avoiding posting of the scores is different.  That's what was suggested here, the purpose is to avoid posting and nothing more.

3 hours ago, klebs01 said:

only if he is actually trying to shoot a low score and is playing by the rules of golf in those casual rounds. The easy answer is to just not play by the rules in those rounds so you don’t have to post the score. 

Intent now matters in the rules a lot more than it once did, and here the intent seems to be to take an action to avoid having to post a score.

35 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

Why do you suppose that is ? I mean how hard is it for a cheat to "accidentally" move his ball in play or drop incorrectly & hit himself with a penalty, same as if he hit one OB or into a PA ?

 

Those sorts of penalties, in MY mind, shouldn't go toward a player's post-able handicap score.

How would you change this to make it equitable, how would you write a rule to differentiate between a cheater intentionally taking penalties and an honest player who accidentally moved his ball?  And which penalty strokes would you choose to eliminate, any and all?  How about penalty relief like Unplayable, OB, Penalty Area?  Would a player's tournament scorecard need to show penalties in a separate column, so the Committee could post his score properly?  Yours is a completely unworkable suggestion.  Cheaters are going to cheat, no matter how the rules are written.

[klebs01]

37 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Intent now matters in the rules a lot more than it once did, and here the intent seems to be to take an action to avoid having to post a score.

The poster mentioned casual 9 hole rounds. I take that to mean rounds where the main focus might not be on scoring. I don’t think there is anything wrong with deciding before a round that it will not be played within the bounds of a qualified handicap round. The fact that that would be the case for most 9 hole rounds also seems reasonable as I’m much more likely to take an 18 hole round more seriously. 

[nsxguy]

14 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Practicing has a purpose, practice.  Specifically choosing to not play by the rules with the purpose of avoiding posting of the scores is different.  That's what was suggested here, the purpose is to avoid posting and nothing more.

 

Intent now matters in the rules a lot more than it once did, and here the intent seems to be to take an action to avoid having to post a score.

 

How would you change this to make it equitable, how would you write a rule to differentiate between a cheater intentionally taking penalties and an honest player who accidentally moved his ball?  And which penalty strokes would you choose to eliminate, any and all?  How about penalty relief like Unplayable, OB, Penalty Area?  Would a player's tournament scorecard need to show penalties in a separate column, so the Committee could post his score properly?  Yours is a completely unworkable suggestion.  Cheaters are going to cheat, no matter how the rules are written.

 

Sorry, but pure semantics IMO. You say to-may-to, I say to-mah-to. I totally agree about intent and specifically pointed to the guy who plays, starts playing really well, & doesn't want to post it - OR purposely plays poorly after starting off great - manipulation.

 

And yes, intent counts, but if a player INTENDS to play a non-post-able practice round, it's practice, no matter how you choose to word it. Practice isn't restricted to the driving range, putting green, practice bunkers, etc.

 

"Specifically choosing to not play by the rules with the purpose of avoiding posting of the score" is what YOU said. That IS practice IMO, from jump. Just like saying "I'm just practicing today gents, so don't mind me,,,,,,,,," - i.e. "I won't be posting this round" (assuming the other even care) - just another way of saying the same thing.

 

Except that I don't believe it'd ever fly, I suppose the "solution" would be to pre-declare a casual round for handicap purposes ?

 

 

Anyway, as for which penalties to throw out ? OK, I guess, to be fair, your answer is "Unworkable".

 

I can tell I annoyed you because it's not like you to miss my pointing out OB and PAs. So sorry about that. 

 

But the USGA/R&A have figured out an awful lot of other rules and exceptions I expect far more complicated than this, and expect players to remember all of them.

 

So I expect the WHS could figure out which penalties should carry over to handicaps and which shouldn't - and yes, I'm sure it would be messy, at least in the beginning.

 

Anyway, it was just a question - sorry for upsetting you. 👍

 

 

[davep043]

3 minutes ago, klebs01 said:

The poster mentioned casual 9 hole rounds. I take that to mean rounds where the main focus might not be on scoring. I don’t think there is anything wrong with deciding before a round that it will not be played within the bounds of a qualified handicap round. The fact that that would be the case for most 9 hole rounds also seems reasonable as I’m much more likely to take an 18 hole round more seriously. 

Yeah, the Rules aren't written and the system isn't really administered on a Committee level that way in my experience.  For the most part, if we see a player on the tee sheet, we expect to see him post a score that day.  We don't have a good way to separate out casual "fun" rounds from casual "serious" rounds without a lot of Committee work.  I wish we did, in a way similar to the procedures used in the UK, with pre-registration and attestation requirements for posting of non-competition scores.

[Mr. Bean]

25 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

So I expect the WHS could figure out which penalties should carry over to handicaps and which shouldn't - and yes, I'm sure it would be messy, at least in the beginning.

 

 

All handicap rounds are supposed to be played according to the Rules so NO penalties are to be omitted from the score excluding DQ for certain breaches in competitions.

 

Your proposal is more than bizarre and certainly totally unrealistic.

[Augster]

A “practice round” is when you play by yourself. You can’t post those anyway. 
 

When you are with others, there is no such thing as a practice round. If there were, everyone’s cap would be WAY higher. Anyone that cares about playing anything net, when they were going to shoot a keeper score, would just throw a couple balls down on 18 and say, “I’m turning this into a practice round”. BS. 
 

If you’re playing with others, play by the Rules and post your score. Playing by yourself? Do whatever you’d like. 

[Augster]

8 hours ago, kiawah said:

I know people who have done something similar but I would rather just earn it the hard way. If I were to play really well and somehow make it to the next stage of qualifying, I wouldn’t be able to live with myself if I posted fake scores. My group once played the wrong tee box at a qualifier (we thought it was back tees all day but they were a box up on a par 3) and I would have made it but I WD myself even though the other two guys didn’t. So it’s not a stretch to say I’ve removed myself from a tournament for less. It will just be sweeter and more satisfying to do it the right way.  

I don’t agree at all. 
 

If a 17 wants to doctor his cap down to 1.2 and try to qualify for a US Am or US open, then makes it through qualifying, F those guys. They were a bunch of scratch and plus guys that should have played better. The 17 deserves the spot based on how he played, not his cap. 
 

More than likely, anyone doctoring their cap to get into qualifying is going to get their a** handed to them. The USGA thanks you for your donation. 🙂

 

Plus they get to play with an artificially low cap for the next almost 20 rounds. If they play anything net, it’ll almost surely cost them. 

[Pfish]

I’ve played a few 9 hole rounds.  The invisible math to come up with an 18 hole differential I believe is based on the 9 hole slope and rating you played then the ghost holes (which are the expected score all the people of your handicap) added based on the same 9 holes. Not the other 9 holes of your 18 hole course.

 

my regular 18 hole course.  71.4/127

front nine. 35.1/119

back nine. 36.3/134

 

 

 

[Newby]

22 minutes ago, Pfish said:

The invisible math to come up with an 18 hole differential I believe is based on the 9 hole slope and rating you played then the ghost holes (which are the expected score all the people of your handicap) added based on the same 9 holes. Not the other 9 holes of your 18 hole course.

 

 

 

 

 

The emboldened words above are not what happens.

 

While not revealing exact specifics of the calculation, The R&A said it does not take the front or back 9 of the course that has been played.

It’s based on a course slope of standard difficulty and your Handicap Index.

The Expected Score calculation is personal to each player.

 

 

[rogolf]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

The emboldened words above are not what happens.

 

While not revealing exact specifics of the calculation, The R&A said it does not take the front or back 9 of the course that has been played.

It’s based on a course slope of standard difficulty and your Handicap Index.

The Expected Score calculation is personal to each player.

 

 

The "course slope of standard difficulty"?  Is this a slope of 113?  And that seems to be only part of it, doesn't there also need to be a course rating for the nine holes not played?  A "differential" infers that it is calculated from two things, in this case wouldn't it be the expected score and a course rating?

Further, here is what the USGA says on its website, (my bolding)

"The expected score is based on the average Score Differential of a player with a given Handicap Index and a normal distribution of scores – so it is not specific to each player."

Edited April 19, 2024 by rogolf

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Augster said:

A “practice round” is when you play by yourself. You can’t post those anyway. 
 

When you are with others, there is no such thing as a practice round.

 

What a strange thought!

 

Whenever players participating in a competition play practice rounds day or two before the competition they always play in groups, simply because courses tend to be crowded. Also professionals play practice rounds before each competition. On all those rounds players PRACTICE, that is, they try to find things to help them in the actual competition.

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

All handicap rounds are supposed to be played according to the Rules so NO penalties are to be omitted from the score excluding DQ for certain breaches in competitions.

 

Your proposal is more than bizarre and certainly totally unrealistic.

 

Well, I'm betting way back when some players thought it blasphemy to put the ball on a peg instead of the miniature sandcastle the caddies used to lay down.

 

And more than a few guys seemed "horrified" when we were recently allowed to leave the flagstick in while putting on the green.

 

But if you read what I wrote I wasn't "proposing" such changes. I simply asked why all those penalty strokes are included in one's handicap. I know, I know, "because penalty strokes count".

 

But I'm trying to understand how my hitting a ball to the green to 2 feet and making a birdie, only to discover out it wasn't my ball, going back to the previous area and discovering my actual ball, then hitting the correct ball into a PA and making double bogey, then adding 2 more shots for the wrong ball, is a good demonstration of my ability. I know, I know, "because penalty strokes count".

 

So instead of making a birdie 3 from virtually the same place, I record a triple bogey 7. I know, I know, it wasn't the same place.

 

I mean, for purposes of my score for a COMPETITION I'm playing in, I get it. For handicap purposes, which supposedly shows my "demonstrated ability" ? Not so much.

 

Again, just a question, but I certainly don't think it "bizarre". (YMDV)

 

[Mr. Bean]

6 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

I mean, for purposes of my score for a COMPETITION I'm playing in, I get it. For handicap purposes, which supposedly shows my "demonstrated ability" ? Not so much.

 

 

Playing a wrong ball demonstrates your ability to identify your own ball. Don't you think that counts..?

[nsxguy]

12 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Playing a wrong ball demonstrates your ability to identify your own ball. Don't you think that counts..?

 

Sure. It shows cognitive ability though, not physical.

 

Again, just spitballing here but a mental mistake, such as hitting a wrong ball, dropping instead of placing, etc. are not physical mistakes.

 

And it's (overwhelmingly ?) the physical mistakes (or not) that show a player's true ability.

 

After all, in an important comp, that same guy is calling over an official for pretty much anything, so he won't be making those mental mistakes then.

 

I think I'd like the handicap to show my "demonstrated physical ability" -  rather than my being a dunderhead. I get enough comeuppance right here on WRX.

[Mr. Bean]

15 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

Sure. It shows cognitive ability though, not physical.

 

Again, just spitballing here but a mental mistake, such as hitting a wrong ball, dropping instead of placing, etc. are not physical mistakes.

 

And it's (overwhelmingly ?) the physical mistakes (or not) that show a player's true ability.

 

After all, in an important comp, that same guy is calling over an official for pretty much anything, so he won't be making those mental mistakes then.

 

I think I'd like the handicap to show my "demonstrated physical ability" -  rather than my being a dunderhead. I get enough comeuppance right here on WRX.

 

Golf is not only physical but very much mental as well. I do not think one can separate those two from each other as one needs strength in both in order to play well.

[rogolf]

27 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

I think I'd like the handicap to show my "demonstrated physical ability" -  rather than my being a dunderhead. I get enough comeuppance right here on WRX.

Your golf score doesn't just represent your demonstrated "physical ability", it demonstrates your total demonstrated ability (dunderhead included).

BTW, dropping and placing are both physical actions, not mental.

Edited April 19, 2024 by rogolf

[nsxguy]

14 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Your golf score doesn't just represent your demonstrated "physical ability", it demonstrates your total demonstrated ability (dunderhead included).

BTW, dropping and placing are both physical actions, not mental.

 

 

True, but it's the (mental) decision that's the mistake. The physical aspect is irrelevant.

 

[rogolf]

24 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

True, but it's the (mental) decision that's the mistake. The physical aspect is irrelevant.

 

It's the physical action which gets the penalty.

[Rod Dandy]

It does seem a little odd to play 9, post it, and your other 9 holes are essentially using a simulation of some calculation. Interesting. 

[st1800e]

5 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

Golf is not only physical but very much mental as well.

I’ve heard the game is 90% mental…..