Ball Nerds? Anyone want to indulge me?

[grochol17]

32 minutes ago, Red4282 said:

Great input. I have no doubt ball construction is the main contributor to initial spin rates as you have posted as well as the references Titleist quotes. However, the moment the ball leaves the club face, there is spin decay. The dimple pattern will have an effect on how much decay, lift and drag it will have. I will say that its probably the least factors of contribution to total performance, and the fact that the ksig delivers higher initial spin, it seems to indicate its something in the construction of the ball causing it.

 

Indoors a LM is only measuring spin off the clubface so it is reporting initial spin only, which is not affected by dimple pattern. 

 

To get an idea of spin decay, you'd need something like trackman outdoors to track the entire flight.  Since friction with the air is what causes the spin to decay and the dimple pattern contributes to the airflow over the ball, the cover design will have some effect on spin decay, but a quick google search doesn't turn up any direct comparisons to show how much differences in the dimple pattern matters.  

[TWGator]

On 4/20/2024 at 1:14 PM, Pepperturbo said:

Good job raising your son.  LEO 👏  Maybe more than what's obvious.  That Talon is nice, similar in ways to my Detonics, which has been on my side since the 70s.

 

Agree.  A .45, hits, regardless of where, it stops.  I've witnessed the 9mm take too many rds, not stop a combatant, which ended in hand-to-hand. 

 

Anyway, thanks for sharing... 

isn’t 10mm and 45 pretty similar in ballistics?

[Exactice808]

4 hours ago, grochol17 said:

 

This data set tells you a good bit of what you need to know, but not everything. 

 

First, for what it can't tell you... indoors launch monitors use a model for how the ball will fly through the air (I've read many places that the Pro V1 is the aerodynamic model used, but I haven't verified that with any of the LM manufacturers).  So, the various LMs can measure the initial launch conditions, but then they are just applying those conditions to a single ball and telling you what that ball would do with those launch numbers.  They do not take into account any differences in aerodynamics between different ball models.

 

As for what you can take away from your numbers...

 

Well, the obvious thing is that there is no magical jump in ball speed with a soft ball at low swing speeds.  The whole idea that at low speeds you can compress a ball more and get more ball speed is a marketing myth.  Compressing a ball is bad for ball speed because you're losing energy from the collision between the club and ball due to internal friction inside the ball when it is deforming and rebounding.  That's why "overcompression" at high swing speeds causes softer balls lose ball speed compared to harder balls. 

 

Any variations that you see in ball speed are going to be due to either strike differences or changing launch conditions.  You can see with your Pro V1 shots that had 1.33 and 1.39 smash factor a difference in launch of almost 4 degrees.  The 1.39 shot must have had more forward shaft lean, presenting less dynamic loft to the ball, which will naturally result in a high smash factor.  In contrast, your last two shots with the K Sig also had about 4* difference in launch, but no difference in smash factor, which means that you mishit the one with lower launch compared to the one that had the higher launch. 

 

Lastly, any on course differences that you're seeing between the balls appears to be mostly due to spin.  On average, you're getting pretty much the same ball speed and launch out of those three balls, but the spin varies by almost 2000 rpms.  So, in some sense, you're hitting flyers with the supersoft because of the low spin and the K Sig is short because it is spinning too much for you.  The aerodynamics of the dimple pattern may also be contributing, but we can't tell how much on an indoor simulator. 

 

Related note... in contrast to what another poster said, the dimple patterns don't make the ball spin more or less.  The dimple pattern, combined with the spin, controls how the air flows over the ball, which affects the lift and drag of the ball.  Spin rate is controlled by how the ball is constructed.  In their info about the newest AVX (you can find the full press release here: https://mediacenter.titleist.com/en-US/233363-titleist-introduces-next-generation-avx-golf-balls) Titleist says the following about spin:

 

"With three-piece construction golf balls, one of the real benefits is the hard-over-soft and soft-over-hard relationships which allow us to control spin in various aspects of the game,” Madson said. “For example, when there is a very high-speed impact condition, the cover is going to play less of a role during that collision. Most of what is interacting with the club face is that stiff casing layer and that soft core, which is a hard-over-soft relationship. When you have hard-over-soft, it drives spin down. Conversely, on shots around the green, the impact with a wedge is a lower speed collision or more of a glancing blow where the interaction is primarily between the cover and the casing layer. When you have that soft cover over that stiff casing layer, that soft-over-hard relationship drives spin up. This helps give AVX golfers the distance they enjoy at the top end of their bags as well as the greenside spin they seek with their wedges."

 

To your original question up at the very top about what to do with this info, I think you answered your own question in one of your posts... while is it nice that you're getting extra distance with the supersoft on irons, you're losing control on shorter shots due to the low spin.  So, you have to decide what is more important to you... hitting about half a club less into a green or having more spin to stop the ball faster when it hits the green?

 

Thank you so much for the response!  I appreciate it!

My thoughts.

 

I had zero validation of soft as generically my brain logically thought what you mentioned was soft was a loss of rebound thus loss of speed, not an increase.  YES for sure 100% spin is at play here, (on that side note, the 6iron might be a validation of longer irons/clubs, not translating to increased Ballspeed due to compression-will touch on this further),  That was the first time I took data, my original post was aimed at the PW and 8iron, I will try to get data, on that as I "felt" there was in increase of ball speed there.

 

Moving on to soft, as a feel vs soft as validation,  we are on the point that the ball construction affects spin in addition to aerodynamics (drag) , foces applied etc. (hard case, soft core vs soft case soft core examples)

 

This supersoft felt "hotter" off the face, you know that "blades saying" a well struck blade is like nothing is there?  Same with this,  it feels like nothing is there when I strike it and it goes. Compared to other "CHEAP" balls that are soft but clicky (think range ball clicky TM Distance +, yuck).  This ball is similar to a prior mentioned Wilson Duo, soft and hot.  Now with the GC3 though I can see that spin is truly a major factor, Mevo+ didnt think much when I had the RCTs and to lazy to stick silver dots on the different balls to test LOL.

 

Disregarding measurement for a second (GC3 camera data vs Mevo+ 8ft flight or beyond)

 

I was testing spin @50y,  hitting my typical  50y shot, with Ksig, Prov1 & Supersoft,  the Ksig had the best spin control numbers that I can use confidently around the green, but of course comes up shorter (which isnt bad), carry & total (Held green) due to spin,  The fun part was seeing how it bounced off the impact screen and can really see the spin.  Prov1 very similar.

 

Supersoft, no matter how hard I tried to put the spin out, came out dead.  so for the supersoft, I assume its truly a spin thing, BUT this also validates, the construction.

 

 

OK so this blah blah blah,  confirms to me once I tweak my club setup,  its time to tweak the ball setup, which can be super beneficial as well.  Im sure pro's get the whole treatment, but us amateurs can benefit from a ball fitting especially now with the available tech.  

 

Im realizing how overlooked ball fitting is,  In fairness when you go to a club fitting most times they are using "premium" balls. Which I dont play on a normal basis. so while the clubs fit there....might not fit with the ball I play. 

 

Secondly the ball I play..... might not be the best fit in general and while I am a cheap@#$%..... I should reevaluate and optimize.

 

In fairness these companies do their R&D on the ball... I wonder why it doesnt get the same exposure as clubs... I mean there is SOOOO many different balls out there to try... the options are amazing,  AND you can by a single sleeve to try, compared to buying irons as a set etc.

 

 

I want to discuss aerodynamics after this...but will take a breather. 

 

 

 

 

[sheppick.dan]

On 4/20/2024 at 1:00 AM, elwhippy said:

Avoid paralysis by analysis. Get out on the course and hit real shots into greens from your regular distances. I find the Supersoft great off irons but short off longer clubs. 

 

Thats the fun part is the analysis! Some people like it some dont...

[Exactice808]

2 hours ago, grochol17 said:

 

Indoors a LM is only measuring spin off the clubface so it is reporting initial spin only, which is not affected by dimple pattern. 

 

To get an idea of spin decay, you'd need something like trackman outdoors to track the entire flight.  Since friction with the air is what causes the spin to decay and the dimple pattern contributes to the airflow over the ball, the cover design will have some effect on spin decay, but a quick google search doesn't turn up any direct comparisons to show how much differences in the dimple pattern matters.  

 

A long time ago,  I made a post about lasering a flag. as the angle of measurement could make a difference to the actual distance. (comparing it to ballistic data)  Ultimately we agreed that the measurement of angle, actual distance and velocity of the ball was so negligible it was a useless thought (but was fun to discuss)

 

With that, I had 2 systems to play with and my goodness I love the GC3, but I totally understand your point of initial vs true flight.

 

To further discuss, I would "assume" initial spin, plays the most factor and the actual decay in flight time and trajectory in general, would be negligible as well?

 

Confirming that the Ksig has 1700rpms more initial spin than the supersoft, now matter how good the aerodynamics of the ball, I doubt would affect spin decay? Its at play no doubt, but again to a significant point to a ball traveling 50y-300y I doubt it would be anything more than a yard or 2.  Similar to spin drift or coriolis effect. It's there, but unless the item travels long enough the effects are negligible.

 

For a pro that has a facility and does it for a living, sure, for me.... ok I concede, golf is a game and fun...not living.

 

With that though......IS there data to show ball dimples and spin decay and spin affect for the traveling distance for 50-300y.  (nerd wise, this would be fun to see) Im sure the manufacture's have it or done it, as thats their living.  But it would be fun for me to dive into those numbers....just because.

OK, so now that I understand Case construction a little.... I recall dimple patterns somewhere,  going to google it,  but anyone want to throw it at me, I recall something like 373 dimples were the magic number or something.....  anyways...

 

 

stopping here for a moment. 

 

 

 

[TWGator]

8 minutes ago, Exactice808 said:

 

Thank you so much for the response!  I appreciate it!

My thoughts.

 

I had zero validation of soft as generically my brain logically thought what you mentioned was soft was a loss of rebound thus loss of speed, not an increase.  YES for sure 100% spin is at play here, (on that side note, the 6iron might be a validation of longer irons/clubs, not translating to increased Ballspeed due to compression-will touch on this further),  That was the first time I took data, my original post was aimed at the PW and 8iron, I will try to get data, on that as I "felt" there was in increase of ball speed there.

 

Moving on to soft, as a feel vs soft as validation,  we are on the point that the ball construction affects spin in addition to aerodynamics (drag) , foces applied etc. (hard case, soft core vs soft case soft core examples)

 

This supersoft felt "hotter" off the face, you know that "blades saying" a well struck blade is like nothing is there?  Same with this,  it feels like nothing is there when I strike it and it goes. Compared to other "CHEAP" balls that are soft but clicky (think range ball clicky TM Distance +, yuck).  This ball is similar to a prior mentioned Wilson Duo, soft and hot.  Now with the GC3 though I can see that spin is truly a major factor, Mevo+ didnt think much when I had the RCTs and to lazy to stick silver dots on the different balls to test LOL.

 

Disregarding measurement for a second (GC3 camera data vs Mevo+ 8ft flight or beyond)

 

I was testing spin @50y,  hitting my typical  50y shot, with Ksig, Prov1 & Supersoft,  the Ksig had the best spin control numbers that I can use confidently around the green, but of course comes up shorter (which isnt bad), carry & total (Held green) due to spin,  The fun part was seeing how it bounced off the impact screen and can really see the spin.  Prov1 very similar.

 

Supersoft, no matter how hard I tried to put the spin out, came out dead.  so for the supersoft, I assume its truly a spin thing, BUT this also validates, the construction.

 

 

OK so this blah blah blah,  confirms to me once I tweak my club setup,  its time to tweak the ball setup, which can be super beneficial as well.  Im sure pro's get the whole treatment, but us amateurs can benefit from a ball fitting especially now with the available tech.  

 

Im realizing how overlooked ball fitting is,  In fairness when you go to a club fitting most times they are using "premium" balls. Which I dont play on a normal basis. so while the clubs fit there....might not fit with the ball I play. 

 

Secondly the ball I play..... might not be the best fit in general and while I am a cheap@#$%..... I should reevaluate and optimize.

 

In fairness these companies do their R&D on the ball... I wonder why it doesnt get the same exposure as clubs... I mean there is SOOOO many different balls out there to try... the options are amazing,  AND you can by a single sleeve to try, compared to buying irons as a set etc.

 

 

I want to discuss aerodynamics after this...but will take a breather. 

 

 

 

 

I never paid a ton of attention to numbers but I played Prov1x because it was higher launching with my driver, also I loved green side spin.  The. I got new irons.  My new irons were 3.5* weaker than my previous set, I also went from of dgs300 shafts to dg120 s400 shafts.  I new I would lose distance with these irons but I lost a lot more than I expected.  So I started trying different balls.  I first went to the left dash which got me closer to my numbers but I really didn’t like the feel green side.  I went to the chrome tour and got more distance on my irons, I’m probably 1/2 club short of my previous set instead of a full set and I’m getting plenty of spin and it feels great,  I felt the CTX was similar but I lost a little distance on the irons.  
 

I say all this to say, you’re right ball fitting is extremely important.

[Exactice808]

3 minutes ago, TWGator said:

I never paid a ton of attention to numbers but I played Prov1x because it was higher launching with my driver, also I loved green side spin.  The. I got new irons.  My new irons were 3.5* weaker than my previous set, I also went from of dgs300 shafts to dg120 s400 shafts.  I new I would lose distance with these irons but I lost a lot more than I expected.  So I started trying different balls.  I first went to the left dash which got me closer to my numbers but I really didn’t like the feel green side.  I went to the chrome tour and got more distance on my irons, I’m probably 1/2 club short of my previous set instead of a full set and I’m getting plenty of spin and it feels great,  I felt the CTX was similar but I lost a little distance on the irons.  
 

I say all this to say, you’re right ball fitting is extremely important.

 

Super duper weird segway..... how do people test and when do people "settle"  I mean is it 1 full round or a couple rounds. (asking as a generality if anyone wants to throw their experiences)

I doubt people are going to the "range" and wasting gamers at the range to test it,

 

The vast amount of balls out there, I couldn't imagine having to test each and every single one.... The "advertisement" and box info doesn't tell much either.  Its "Longer, Straighter, more green side spin"  "3 piece construction" as a normal consumer, I have no idea what it all means. I am learning about it now,  but if I didn't ask the questions...... I would still be hitting stupid random golf balls, due to price rather than optimization.

 

 

[sheppick.dan]

1 minute ago, Exactice808 said:

 

Super duper weird segway..... how do people test and when do people "settle"  I mean is it 1 full round or a couple rounds. (asking as a generality if anyone wants to throw their experiences)

I doubt people are going to the "range" and wasting gamers at the range to test it,

 

The vast amount of balls out there, I couldn't imagine having to test each and every single one.... The "advertisement" and box info doesn't tell much either.  Its "Longer, Straighter, more green side spin"  "3 piece construction" as a normal consumer, I have no idea what it all means. I am learning about it now,  but if I didn't ask the questions...... I would still be hitting stupid random golf balls, due to price rather than optimization.

 

 

I tested them all in the simulator and based it on PGA trackman numbers. I wanted to highest distance with the closest spin. Once I got a few that were good I putted with them. That quickly cut a few out as I didn't like the feel. Then I chipped with them. Once I had it narrowed down to 2-3 balls I played with them. 

 

After that I got more confused as the numbers on launch monitor didn't match results on the course for spin and stopping power! I thought I always read that you got more spin off the ground than off a mat?!?!

[TWGator]

3 minutes ago, Exactice808 said:

 

Super duper weird segway..... how do people test and when do people "settle"  I mean is it 1 full round or a couple rounds. (asking as a generality if anyone wants to throw their experiences)

I doubt people are going to the "range" and wasting gamers at the range to test it,

 

The vast amount of balls out there, I couldn't imagine having to test each and every single one.... The "advertisement" and box info doesn't tell much either.  Its "Longer, Straighter, more green side spin"  "3 piece construction" as a normal consumer, I have no idea what it all means. I am learning about it now,  but if I didn't ask the questions...... I would still be hitting stupid random golf balls, due to price rather than optimization.

 

 

Ha yea I think you settle when you find one that does what you want.  I’ve read a lot on here and I’d like to try some of the Bridgestone balls but I’ve got 8-10 rounds in with the CT ball and I’m very comfortable with it now.  I might could find something marginally better but at this point I know my game pretty well and as long as I’m hitting it long enough with the driver, holding greens with irons  and it acts like I expect around the greens I’m pretty happy.

[Pepperturbo]

On 4/19/2024 at 4:23 PM, sheppick.dan said:

K sig is a firmer ball than pro v 1, right?

 

Did you have any luck or feel any better results by using the metallic dots on non RCT balls?

 

I feel like it’s better but still not as accurate so I don’t personally worry too much on is this the right amount of spin or not. 
 

on Monday I’ll post up data for 8iron and pw. I did the most testing of balls with my 6 iron this year mainly because I felt I was hitting that the best at the time. 

No, not from my charts.  K-sig is 90, firm, but depends on the year.  In 2023 ProV1 was 87-90 and 2022 it was high 90s while my Left Dash -ProV1x is 102 and AVX is 80.

[Pepperturbo]

2 hours ago, TWGator said:

isn’t 10mm and 45 pretty similar in ballistics?

You could say that, except 10mm has a higher chamber pressure, creating a different feel.  LOL To me, blades are like .45 and SGI like 10mm super light.  The 10mm is longer and hotter, yet a smaller bullet, than .45 ACP.  I used to load my own rounds.

[bdcava]

I got a couple of sleeves of SuperSofts at an outing and may give them a try again. I don’t swing too fast and like others here, I was absolutely nuking them with the short irons.

[Exactice808]

Just a quick update to my own thread.

 

1) I got a new set of Irons (Sub70 659CB's) UGH!!! I love them.

2) Swung by Costco and since I am testing balls,  bought the new Costco balls to test for the heck of it. (Yellows, going blind lately)

 

 

The New costco balls spin about 500rpms ish less than the old Ksigs that I was using as an example above.  The New Ksigs,  spin about the same as the ProV1s.

 

Took my new clubs and the "New" Ksigs out and played around with the SuperSoft and New Ksigs.....

 

Supersofts go far and are still hard to control.  New Ksigs dont go as far as the Supersoft, but WAY more predictable..... especially with the short irons PW and down.  The Carry is similar within 5yards.  But the spin control is really hit or miss which I dont like.

 

 

The gains off the tee are bigger with the supersoft 10ys, but when I cant predict the reaction with a 120y shot or a 50y chip... not worth the extra 10yards IMHO.

 

I guess the honeymoon stage is over with the supersofts..... the New Ksigs are closer to the Prov1's surprisingly!  going to run with them for the 2 boxes I got!