Posting More Than 9 Holes Without a Full Side Being Played

[DaveLeeNC]

When you play 16 holes (hole 2 through 17 where holes #1 and #18 are closed due to temporary conditions), how should you post this score? The GHIN app won't accept it as a hole by hole score because there is no full 9 played. The most complete source addressing this that I have found is https://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/2024-revision/Detailed-Infographic-2024-holes-not-played.pdf .  But it doesn't answer my question. The referenced document says 

 

If 10 to 17 holes are played, an acceptable score can be posted, and an 18-hole Score Differential™ will be determined automatically. However, when 10-17 holes are played, the player will be required to post their score using the hole-by-hole score posting option

 

But the GHIN app won't accept this. Instead you get this. 

 

 

Posting Par + Strokes seems reasonable. But I don't see that anywhere in the documentation that I can find. Any answers out there? Thanks. 

 

dave

 

[Mr. Bean]

If a course is temporarily missing hole #1 and #18 is it eligible for handicap rounds at all as neither front9 nor back9 is complete?

 

Edited April 22, 2024 by Mr. Bean

[Augster]

When holes are officially closed, you use net par under Rule 3.2b/2. 
 

3.2b/2 – Use of Net Par for a Hole Not Played

In certain circumstances, and only when approved by the Authorized Association, a score of net par can be used for a hole or holes not played, in place of the expected score. Examples of situations where a score of net par would be acceptable include:

1. When the player is required to submit an adjusted gross score, including scores for any holes not played, or

2. When one or more holes are out of play due to construction or maintenance, which affects all players over a period of time.

 

 

[DaveLeeNC]

5 hours ago, Augster said:

When holes are officially closed, you use net par under Rule 3.2b/2. 
 

3.2b/2 – Use of Net Par for a Hole Not Played

In certain circumstances, and only when approved by the Authorized Association, a score of net par can be used for a hole or holes not played, in place of the expected score. Examples of situations where a score of net par would be acceptable include:

1. When the player is required to submit an adjusted gross score, including scores for any holes not played, or

2. When one or more holes are out of play due to construction or maintenance, which affects all players over a period of time.

 

 

Thanks, that is the answer. I missed it when trying to browse the rules on my phone.  I wonder why they don't use the same algorithm as the case of only playing holes 1 through 16? Possibly due to the "preapproved" requirement.  dave

[Augster]

9 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Thanks, that is the answer. I missed it when trying to browse the rules on my phone.  I wonder why they don't use the same algorithm as the case of only playing holes 1 through 16? Possibly due to the "preapproved" requirement.  dave

I think it’s just a software failing/glitch that they need you to play at least one entire nine to have the prorated holes kick in. I think we can all agree a 16-hole round should be posted. Just because 1 and 18 are closed shouldn’t really matter. Especially since the extra holes being posted are just up against “average”. They aren’t prorating the actual 1st and 18th hole. 

[Mr. Bean]

23 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Thanks, that is the answer. I missed it when trying to browse the rules on my phone.  I wonder why they don't use the same algorithm as the case of only playing holes 1 through 16? Possibly due to the "preapproved" requirement.  dave

 

Indeed. Depending on a course missing holes may change the course rating quite a bit and that may have to be compensated.

[Pfish]

I had a hard time posting when starting on the 4th hole playing 15 holes total.  Finally I tried putting 0s in and it took the score.  A friend tried that when playing front nine and 10, 18. And it didn’t work the same way.  If wondering why anyone would play those holes on the back nine it’s because it’s a fast way back to clubhouse and it was raining.

[st1800e]

@DaveLeeNC  @Augster

 

Linked below is the guidance from Golf Canada, Which I assume is an Authorized Association.  I’d also wonder if in the USA your State Associations have approved the use of net par for holes not played.  As described in:

 

3.2b/2 – Use of Net Par for a Hole Not Played

 

Evidently Golf Canada has not approved “net pars” and follows

 

 3.2b/3 - Designation of Holes Not Played

 

https://www.golfcanada.ca/articles/whs-2024-treatment-of-holes-not-played/

 

[DaveLeeNC]

15 minutes ago, st1800e said:

@DaveLeeNC  @Augster

 

Linked below is the guidance from Golf Canada, Which I assume is an Authorized Association.  I’d also wonder if in the USA your State Associations have approved the use of net par for holes not played.  As described in:

 

3.2b/2 – Use of Net Par for a Hole Not Played

 

Evidently Golf Canada has not approved “net pars” and follows

 

 3.2b/3 - Designation of Holes Not Played

 

https://www.golfcanada.ca/articles/whs-2024-treatment-of-holes-not-played/

 

You can find pretty much identical words from the USGA where you are explicitly told to post the holes you played and indicate the holes not played. Then when you go to the only input option available to most of us (GHIN) and try to indicate that holes 1 and 18 were NOT played, the app will reject your input because you did not play a complete side. 

 

I don't know if the 'guidance' to post strokes + par is a workaround to accommodate a software flaw or somehow intentional.

 

dave

[st1800e]

19 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

I don't know if the 'guidance' to post strokes + par is a workaround to accommodate a software flaw or somehow intentional.

I think it’s intentional. I read it all earlier, not going back right now, but I recall there was some reference to needing a complete side to properly impute the holes not played.  

[DaveLeeNC]

28 minutes ago, st1800e said:

I think it’s intentional. I read it all earlier, not going back right now, but I recall there was some reference to needing a complete side to properly impute the holes not played.  

 

The system can impute my back 9 score (when I only played the front side) and it is clear that this result has nothing to do with the scores that I shot on the front 9. So it seems odd to me that they would require my scores on holes 1-9 (when only scores 2-17 are available) to impute my score on hole 18 (for the case of playing only holes 2-17). That would imply that your scoring on holes that were played affects your imputed scores on unplayed holes, but when a full side is unplayed then your scoring on other holes has no effect. 

 

The whole thing is strange in my mind. 

 

dave

[st1800e]

1 minute ago, DaveLeeNC said:

The whole thing is strange in my mind. 

Agreed.   And strange that there are 2 methods, to be approved or prescribed by the “Authorized Association” for similar and relatively uncommon situations.   

[DaveLeeNC]

Just to catch up with this oldish thread, the topic is that the GHIN app will happily let you post a round where you skipped (for reasons unrelated to handicap manipulation) 2 holes on the same side, but not when those 2 holes are one each on the front/back side. If you go to the suggested hole by hole input process, GHIN will reject your input in the case where there is a missing hole on both the front and back side. The only answer seems to be to post 'par + strokes' on the unplayed holes.

 

This then brings up an interesting mixed alternative. Holes 1 and 18 on one of our courses are still not fully back in play. Both are playing as short par 3's and the yardage loss is well outside the table in appendix G of the Handicap Manual. There is no temporary rating in place (I don't know why that is the case). So par + strokes is the only alternative here that I am aware of (and you ignore what you actually shot on those two holes). 

 

So if you go to GHIN and start inputting your hole by hole scores, you enter par + strokes on hole #1, your real scores on holes 2-17, and (VOILA) you can NOW enter hole 18 as a hole not played and GHIN will accept that. An interesting hybrid approach. 

 

dave

[nsxguy]

11 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Just to catch up with this oldish thread, the topic is that the GHIN app will happily let you post a round where you skipped (for reasons unrelated to handicap manipulation) 2 holes on the same side, but not when those 2 holes are one each on the front/back side. If you go to the suggested hole by hole input process, GHIN will reject your input in the case where there is a missing hole on both the front and back side. The only answer seems to be to post 'par + strokes' on the unplayed holes.

 

This then brings up an interesting mixed alternative. Holes 1 and 18 on one of our courses are still not fully back in play. Both are playing as short par 3's and the yardage loss is well outside the table in appendix G of the Handicap Manual. There is no temporary rating in place (I don't know why that is the case). So par + strokes is the only alternative here that I am aware of (and you ignore what you actually shot on those two holes). 

 

So if you go to GHIN and start inputting your hole by hole scores, you enter par + strokes on hole #1, your real scores on holes 2-17, and (VOILA) you can NOW enter hole 18 as a hole not played and GHIN will accept that. An interesting hybrid approach. 

 

dave

 

Don't understand the purpose of the post.

 

You/we know you can input anything you want; you're just not following the handicapping rules if you do what you're suggesting.

 

[DaveLeeNC]

8 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

Don't understand the purpose of the post.

 

You/we know you can input anything you want; you're just not following the handicapping rules if you do what you're suggesting.

 

 

Some of us suspect that it is the GHIN system that isn't following the handicapping rules. This approach is a way to 'get closer' to those rules despite the (suspected) limitations of GHIN. 

 

dave

[DaveLeeNC]

I ended up exchanging a couple of emails with the folks at hdcapquestions@usga.org. There were a couple of surprises. 

 

1) WRT the original question that started this thread, the ONLY correct answer (how to post a score when holes #1 and #18 are both closed) is to contact your "Allied Golf Association" (Carolinas Golf Association in my case). They are the authority on what is to be done and it is up to them (and only them). 

 

2) The use of 'Par + Strokes' is really only available "to us" when your Allied Golf Association allows it (see Rule 3.2b/2). We don't get to decide when its use is appropriate. 

 

3) This one really surprised me. If (for example) you skip hole #1 because you were late for your tee time and you just moved ahead to catch up with your group and you skipped hole #18 because of threatening weather, this IS NOT A POSTABLE ROUND! You must "complete 9 holes on a rated 9 for the score to be acceptable". This seems simple and clear - I don't know why it isn't stated clearly like this in the Rules. It can be waived (by your Allied Golf Association for the case of closed holes) "since it affects all players the same".  I really wasn't expecting that one and quite frankly I don't see the logic here. But them's the rules. 

 

dave

Edited August 20, 2024 by DaveLeeNC

[iacas]

14 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Some of us suspect that it is the GHIN system that isn't following the handicapping rules. This approach is a way to 'get closer' to those rules despite the (suspected) limitations of GHIN.

You must play a rated nine holes.

 

———

 

I had typed that up but didn’t submit it for some reason. Maybe it’s just because I’ve seen the answer to this but I feel it is pretty clear that you must play a rated nine holes to post a round. It says you can’t just play nine holes and post if you play holes 3 through 11 for example.

[Augster]

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

I ended up exchanging a couple of emails with the folks at hdcapquestions@usga.org. There were a couple of surprises. 

 

1) WRT the original question that started this thread, the ONLY correct answer (how to post a score when holes #1 and #18 are both closed) is to contact your "Allied Golf Association" (Carolinas Golf Association in my case). They are the authority on what is to be done and it is up to them (and only them). 

 

2) The use of 'Par + Strokes' is really only available "to us" when your Allied Golf Association allows it (see Rule 3.2b/2). We don't get to decide when its use is appropriate. 

 

3) This one really surprised me. If (for example) you skip hole #1 because you were late for your tee time and you just moved ahead to catch up with your group and you skipped hole #18 because of threatening weather, this IS NOT A POSTABLE ROUND! You must "complete 9 holes on a rated 9 for the score to be acceptable". This seems simple and clear - I don't know why it isn't stated clearly like this in the Rules. It can be waived (by your Allied Golf Association for the case of closed holes) "since it affects all players the same".  I really wasn't expecting that one and quite frankly I don't see the logic here. But them's the rules. 

 

dave

Thanks for your diligence on this. 
 

For number 3, this is known. If you don’t complete a full 9 holes, that are rated, by WHS rules you can’t post it. 
 

Most all of us agree this is complete poppycock and are willing to “fudge” that number with Par+ for at least one of the holes not played. Once you have a full 9 on a rated side, you can leave other holes blank and WHS will fill them in with the algorithm. 
 

The Note in 2.2b makes this clear:

 

“  2.2 Minimum Number of Holes Played for Score to be Acceptable

 

2.2b For a 9-hole Score
 For a 9-hole score to be acceptable for handicap purposes, all 9 holes must be played. If a player has not played at least 9 holes, the score is not acceptable for handicap purposes.

Note:
An acceptable 9-hole score must be played over 9-holes with a current Course Rating and Slope Rating (see Rule 2.1).”

 

Read correctly, say a player skips hole 1, Holes 2-10 don’t have a rating unto themselves. Same as, in the OP example, holes 2-17 aren’t independently rated for 9 holes, even though you’re playing 16 holes. 
 

This likely falls under the “common sense” umbrella. The WHS isn’t likely to fix this oversight because they know the average player will use “common sense” and likely give themselves a score for the holes not played and go on with their lives oblivious to correct posting Rules. 
 

 

 

[Newby]

3 hours ago, Augster said:

The Note in 2.2b makes this clear:

 

2.2 Minimum Number of Holes Played for Score to be Acceptable

2.2b For a 9-hole Score
 For a 9-hole score to be acceptable for handicap purposes, all 9 holes must be played. If a player has not played at least 9 holes, the score is not acceptable for handicap purposes.
 

 

5 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

I ended up exchanging a couple of emails with the folks at hdcapquestions@usga.org. There were a couple of surprises. 

 

1) WRT the original question that started this thread, the ONLY correct answer (how to post a score when holes #1 and #18 are both closed) is to contact your "Allied Golf Association" (Carolinas Golf Association in my case). They are the authority on what is to be done and it is up to them (and only them). 

 

 

But the question (When you play 16 holes (hole 2 through 17 where holes #1 and #18 are closed due to temporary conditions), how should you post this score?) is about playing 16 holes.

2.2a simply says a minimum of 10 must be played.

 

We don't use it over here but surely the problem is GHIN. Is there no alternative way of posting scores to the WHS?

[st1800e]

4 hours ago, Newby said:

We don't use it over here but surely the problem is GHIN. Is there no alternative way of posting scores to the WHS?

The Golf Canada system is the same as GHIN , without a complete front or back nine, the score can’t be posted.  
Both these systems are the only ones available in the respective countries to get an official WHS handicap. 
 

I’ve never heard of posting scores TO the WHS. 

[DaveLeeNC]

10 hours ago, iacas said:

You must play a rated nine holes.

 

———

 

I had typed that up but didn’t submit it for some reason. Maybe it’s just because I’ve seen the answer to this but I feel it is pretty clear that you must play a rated nine holes to post a round. It says you can’t just play nine holes and post if you play holes 3 through 11 for example.

 

9 hours ago, Augster said:

For number 3, this is known. If you don’t complete a full 9 holes, that are rated, by WHS rules you can’t post it. 

 

When you see the following from the USGA (in the context of an incomplete 18 hole score), I don't see interpreting that as "you need to play 10 or more holes to post an 18 score" as being an incomplete reading of the rules (it is not a 9 hole score question). But the USGA has spoken (and there is an exception available to your Allied Golf Association for the case of a hole being closed due to maintenance). 

5 hours ago, Newby said:

We don't use it over here but surely the problem is GHIN. Is there no alternative way of posting scores to the WHS?

 

This is not a GHIN problem. Playing holes 2 through 17 only (when holes 1 and 18 are available for play) is NOT a postable score. So GHIN is correct here. 

 

dave

Edited August 20, 2024 by DaveLeeNC

[Newby]

2.2b (including the note) is only about 9 hole scores. It has nothing to do with 18 holes scores.

The OP was about 18 holes scores which 22a covers explicitly.

[DaveLeeNC]

16 minutes ago, Newby said:

2.2b (including the note) is only about 9 hole scores. It has nothing to do with 18 holes scores.

The OP was about 18 holes scores which 22a covers explicitly.

That is what I thought, but I was informed (by the USGA) that I am wrong here. And Rule 2.1 seems to restate the same (incorrect) interpretation that 10 holes is sufficient for an 18 hole posting. 

 

dave

[Newby]

1 hour ago, st1800e said:

 

I’ve never heard of posting scores TO the WHS. 

I didn't mean directly in the WHS. 

In GB&I we have a number of ISVs (Independent Software Vendors) who provide full club management systems including competition management and recording competition and general play scores. Any hole not started or finished is given a code to indicate the reason. No WHS calculations etc are done by the ISV. 

 

All the raw scores are uploaded TO the WHS system overnight and all the processing done within WHS. The adjusted HIs are down loaded to the the club's ISV system.

[Newby]

12 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

That is what I thought, but I was informed (by the USGA) that I am wrong here. And Rule 2.1 seems to restate the same (incorrect) interpretation that 10 holes is sufficient for an 18 hole posting. 

 

dave

It certainly isn't the way it is done here 🙄

[Newby]

3.2a Reason for Not Playing One or More Holes
There are various reasons why a round is not completed or one or more holes are not played during the round.

Valid reasons might include:
l The course being played has fewer than 9 or 18-holes because:
o A hole (or holes) has been declared out of play by the Committee for maintenance or reconstruction purposes,

 

Incomplete 18-hole Round
If fewer than 18 holes have been played but more than 9 holes, an 18-hole score is only acceptable for handicap purposes if the reason for not completing the
round was considered valid (see Rule 3.2a).
l If the reason was considered valid, an 18-hole Score Differential is created using the player’s expected score for the hole or holes not played (see Rule 3.2b).
l If the reason was considered invalid, the score is not acceptable for handicap purposes. However, depending on the circumstances, the Handicap Committee
may consider applying a penalty score (see Rule 7.1b).
 

 

Rule 3.2b Clarifications:
3.2b/1 – Procedure for Calculating a Score Differential using an Expected Score
The calculation of an expected score is automated and is used to attribute a statistical value against any hole or holes not played within an acceptable

9-hole or 18-hole round so that a 9-hole or 18-hole Score Differential can be calculated, subject to other provisions set out within the Rules of Handicapping.
The procedure for calculating a Score Differential using an expected score can be summarized as follows:
1. An expected Score Differential for the hole or holes not played is calculated, based on a given Handicap Index and a course of standard difficulty.
2. A Score Differential for the holes played is calculated using the player’s actual scores and the rating value of the holes played.
3. The Score Differential from the holes played is combined with the expected Score Differential to produce either a 9-hole or 18-hole Score Differential.
3.2b/2 – Use of Net Par for a Hole Not Played
In certain circumstances, and only when approved by the Authorized Association, a score of net par can be used for a hole or holes not played, in
place of the expected score. Examples of situations where a score of net par would be acceptable include:
l When the player is required to submit an adjusted gross score, including scores for any holes not played, or
l When one or more holes are out of play due to construction or maintenance, which affects all players over a period of time.
3.2b/3 – Designation of Holes Not Played
Where one or more holes have not been played during the round and the player is not required to submit an adjusted gross score , the player must submit hole by-
hole scores and designate which holes were not played as prescribed by the Authorized Association . This is to ensure that all of the procedures set out
within the Rules of Handicapping can be carried out accurately, including the calculation of the expected score for the hole or holes not played.

Edited August 20, 2024 by Newby

[DaveLeeNC]

18 minutes ago, Newby said:

It certainly isn't the way it is done here 🙄

Are you saying that you can enter holes 1 and 18 as being unplayed (valid golf scores entered on the other 16 holes) and the system will accept that and calculate an 18 hole differential? If so, that is very "interesting". 

 

dave

[Newby]

4 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Are you saying that you can enter holes 1 and 18 as being unplayed (valid golf scores entered on the other 16 holes) and the system will accept that and calculate an 18 hole differential? If so, that is very "interesting". 

 

dave

That's what happens here and what is in the book.

 

I was typing the long post when you responded

Edited August 20, 2024 by Newby

[DaveLeeNC]

5 minutes ago, Newby said:

That's what happens here and what is in the book.

 

I was typing the long post when you responded

 

Thanks - it is hard to believe that both sides of the pond are correct here. dave

[Newby]

19 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

 

Thanks - it is hard to believe that both sides of the pond are correct here. dave

As I said, it is a GHIN issue. I thought GHIN didn't do any WHS calculations. Is it capable of doing the PCC for example

 

If 10 to 17 holes are played, an acceptable score can be posted, and an 18-hole Score Differential™ will be determined automatically. However, when 10-17 holes are played, the player will be required to post their score using the hole-by-hole score posting option

 

But the GHIN app won't accept this. Instead you get this. 

 

 

The underlying problem it seems, is that GHIN hasn't got access to the individual hole rating data (or par) in order to be able to determine the 'standard' score for unplayed holes.

 

Of course we don't know how that algorithm works or what data it uses.

Edited August 20, 2024 by Newby