Legal local rule? NPZ and PA

[Augster]

Hey,

 

I’m trying to write out local rules for this year. We have giant areas on 2 holes that have been turned over and leveled and they are seeding them tomorrow. These will be NPZs. Simple. 
 

Both of the seeded areas butt up to a PA on one side. 
 

If a ball goes through the NPZ and into the PA, is it necessary to drop in the NPZ, then take NPZ relief? Or is there a way to word the PA relief to drop only once, and outside the NPZ? It’s going to be newly seeded, so they want minimal traffic. 
 

Is there a way to word the relief for the PA so they don’t have to drop into the NPZ-GUR, then take relief? One drop outside the NPZ. 

 

Thanks!

[rogolf]

17 minutes ago, Augster said:

Hey,

 

I’m trying to write out local rules for this year. We have giant areas on 2 holes that have been turned over and leveled and they are seeding them tomorrow. These will be NPZs. Simple. 
 

Both of the seeded areas butt up to a PA on one side. 
 

If a ball goes through the NPZ and into the PA, is it necessary to drop in the NPZ, then take NPZ relief? Or is there a way to word the PA relief to drop only once, and outside the NPZ? It’s going to be newly seeded, so they want minimal traffic. 
 

Is there a way to word the relief for the PA so they don’t have to drop into the NPZ-GUR, then take relief? One drop outside the NPZ. 

 

Thanks!

A couple of possibilities:

- use a dropping zone for the PA and make it mandatory for PA relief.  You might even get creative and make the DZ mandatory for the GUR/NPZ as well, but that may be too difficult for some to comprehend!

- extend the PA to include the new seeded area, and make the whole PA a NPZ.  Might want to do a dropping zone for this also.  This might eliminate issues of "is the ball in the GUR or the PA?" and make it easy for the players to play within the Rules.

 

For the dropping zone, you could just put a stake in the ground and say the DZ in within two club-lengths of the stake (we've used blue stakes for this), then it's easy to relocate the DZ when necessary and no paint is required.

[Augster]

I was guessing a drop zone, or a series of them as the seeded area goes about 100 yards up the right side on one hole, was going to be the right answer. 
 

I may have to talk to the super and see if he has some blue stakes. 
 

I doubt my committee will let me make the entire area a PA. LOL. I’ll have to take a pic tomorrow. The seeded area on the 7th hole starts about 1 yard off the fairway on the right. Then it’s about 25-30 yards of seeded area to the PA. That would certainly be the simplest way to do it. Make the entire area, plus the PA a NPZ-PA. 
 

And I thought I already had enough people that don’t like me. 🙂

 

Thanks for the help. If I can get like 5 blue stakes to designate “drop zones” I could put them about every 20 yards and a ball in the NPZ or PA goes to the nearest blue stake, 2CL. Play on. 
 

Seems simple enough to understand. 

[Newby]

Simple to understand but isn't it rather punitive to have a PA 1 yard off the fairway?

 

Is the original PA a water area?

[Colin L]

I may be getting this wrong but it sounds as if you are overlooking the fact that the NPZ has to be in an abnormal course condition,  In this instance, the seeded area would have to be defined as a penalty area or ground under repair in the first instance.  It doesn't change your question but it does affect the  wording of your local rule.   You'll get help with the wording from MLR E-8 here.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Newby said:

Simple to understand but isn't it rather punitive to have a PA 1 yard off the fairway?

 

 

Potentially. Then again it is only on one side. Depends on what is on the other side.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Colin L said:

I may be getting this wrong but it sounds as if you are overlooking the fact that the NPZ has to be in an abnormal course condition,

 

I am afraid I do not understand that. NPZ can be either an area defined as ACC or PA.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, Newby said:

Is the original PA a water area?

 

We had a similar situation as OP has on one of my home courses. The management of the course had defined the entire seeded area containing a PA with water as ACC and NPZ. Not really to the point of Rules but very practical.

[Newby]

If the NPZ is designated ACC and the PA is still a PA BUT the NPZ/ACC is also deemed No Entry there could be a problem when trying to determine if a ball is actually in the PA or the ACC. This may depend on how likely players are to hit wide enough. I always prefer to keep everyone away from newly seeded areas.

 

My preference would be as Mr Bean has implied. Designate the whole area as an ACC and maybe get a temporary CR review.

[Colin L]

37 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I am afraid I do not understand that. NPZ can be either an area defined as ACC or PA.

Of course, as implied in my second sentence, but altogether not expressed clearly.  Thanks for spotting it.

 

[Augster]

In the local rules we usually write NPZ-GUR (for ACC as more people are familiar with GUR) and NPZ-PA. Here’s a marked up pic from Google. 
 

 

That is the 11th hole coming back. It is possible to drive it from the 7th tee right of the NPZ and PA. We’d like to keep the PA if possible. 
 

By making the NPZ-GUR margin go all the way to the PA margin, if the player isn’t KVC it’s in the water, he WOULD be KVC it’s in the NPZ. It’s the only possibility, unless the player hit that tree on the fly which almost never happens. 
 

As was also said, we’d like to keep people from walking in the seeded area as much as possible. I don’t think the super is going to put up fencing around it. When he did it last year he just staked around the area and put up a yellow wire to keep carts out etc. 

 

Thanks for all the help. 

[Newby]

How long is the yellow arrow?

How likely is it that a ball will finish in the pale green area of the lower PA?

Is the pale green pondweed on the surface of the water or dry land?

My concern is the red PA margin linking the white GUR lines.

What shot would be being played for a ball to reach the GUR (and what stroke #) ? 

[Augster]

4 hours ago, Newby said:

How long is the yellow arrow?

How likely is it that a ball will finish in the pale green area of the lower PA?

Is the pale green pondweed on the surface of the water or dry land?

My concern is the red PA margin linking the white GUR lines.

What shot would be being played for a ball to reach the GUR (and what stroke #) ? 

The yellow line is just an arrow showing the direction the hole plays. 
 

Everything inside the red lines is water. That’s just pond scum. 
 

It’s the drive, first shot. Anyone that pushes, or can’t control their slice, is in the water from our blue, normal, tee. I’d bet it’s about 200 to the water from the tee. Much shorter to the NPZ-GUR. 
 

As the hole plays, now that it’s dug up, smoothed, and seeded, if you don’t see your ball, it’d have to be in the PA. That’s the main reason I’d like to take the NPZ margin line to the PA line. There is a strip of land, about 1.5 feet, that would be outside the PA, and outside the seeded area. That’s why I intend to include that strip of land into the NPZ. We don’t want people having to drop, and play, from there. 

 

 

[rogolf]

27 minutes ago, Augster said:

The yellow line is just an arrow showing the direction the hole plays. 
 

Everything inside the red lines is water. That’s just pond scum. 
 

It’s the drive, first shot. Anyone that pushes, or can’t control their slice, is in the water from our blue, normal, tee. I’d bet it’s about 200 to the water from the tee. Much shorter to the NPZ-GUR. 
 

As the hole plays, now that it’s dug up, smoothed, and seeded, if you don’t see your ball, it’d have to be in the PA. That’s the main reason I’d like to take the NPZ margin line to the PA line. There is a strip of land, about 1.5 feet, that would be outside the PA, and outside the seeded area. That’s why I intend to include that strip of land into the NPZ. We don’t want people having to drop, and play, from there. 

 

 

Whatever you decide to do, make it easy and easily understood for the players to play within the Rule(s), eliminating doubt and confusion.

I also presume that you don't want anyone walking into the seeded area (GUR-NPZ) to retrieve their ball?  That may be a challenge!  Be prepared for some known or virtually certain issues - "my ball definitely came down in the GUR-NPZ area, no way did it carry into the penalty area."  Penalty strokes seem to alter vision and perception!

Edited April 24, 2024 by rogolf

[Newby]

I'm afraid I may be misunderstanding the layout. Which hole are we discussing? The top left to lower right (one with a 7 on it) or mid-right to upper left?

 

They both seem to involve a problem.

[Augster]

4 hours ago, Newby said:

I'm afraid I may be misunderstanding the layout. Which hole are we discussing? The top left to lower right (one with a 7 on it) or mid-right to upper left?

 

They both seem to involve a problem.

I’m only worried about the playing of hole 7.

 

The ACC is to the right on the hole. The hole plays in the direction of the arrow. The ACC is certainly in play for the tee shot and is long enough to affect someone, after a bad tee shot, pushing or slicing their 2nd shot. 
 

 

[Newby]

IMO make both areas one ACC with penalty free DZs.

This might upset some here but as it is only temporary, it will make the members happier.

 

Mixed areas will only cause confusion for players. "Where do I take relief?" This side or that side?"

"Why do I get a penalty and he doesn't if we are dropping in the same place?" "How do I get to the far relief area if I can't walk over the seeding?"

 

Declaring the whole area as a PA will cause resentment. "Just because they chose to seed the area why should I get a penalty when I didn't before?"

 

[Augster]

2 hours ago, Newby said:

IMO make both areas one ACC with penalty free DZs.

This might upset some here but as it is only temporary, it will make the members happier.

 

Mixed areas will only cause confusion for players. "Where do I take relief?" This side or that side?"

"Why do I get a penalty and he doesn't if we are dropping in the same place?" "How do I get to the far relief area if I can't walk over the seeding?"

 

Declaring the whole area as a PA will cause resentment. "Just because they chose to seed the area why should I get a penalty when I didn't before?"

 

Thanks! I absolutely know this is going to be a poopfest for quite some time. The grass won’t be in and playable until, probably, July? 
 

I do agree making the entire thing, earth and water, a giant ACC and just let each player drop, for free, at an estimated NPOCR. I doubt my committee will go for that, but it is simple and understandable. Putting designated free drop zones would make it even easier. 

[Mr. Bean]

10 hours ago, Augster said:

I do agree making the entire thing, earth and water, a giant ACC and just let each player drop, for free, at an estimated NPOCR. I doubt my committee will go for that, but it is simple and understandable. Putting designated free drop zones would make it even easier. 

 

One comment to this.

 

You do remember that there will be two potential NPOCR's depending whether the ball can be identified in the ACC or not. This will confuse Average Joe and there will be lots of incorrect reliefs if mandatory Dropping Zones are not used. Then again, if DZ is mandatory then a player whose ball can be identified far in the ACC might lose 50 yds or more. Think carefully what you do.

 

FWIW, just as @Newby I would make the entire area ACC/NPZ as that would be the easiest solution for the players.

 

Edited April 25, 2024 by Mr. Bean

[Newby]

13 hours ago, Augster said:

Thanks! I absolutely know this is going to be a poopfest for quite some time. The grass won’t be in and playable until, probably, July? 
 

I do agree making the entire thing, earth and water, a giant ACC and just let each player drop, for free, at an estimated NPOCR. I doubt my committee will go for that, but it is simple and understandable. Putting designated free drop zones would make it even easier. 

An estimated NPOCR may be too subjective. I'm not that convinced about the enforcement of or adherence to the new OOB Local Rule.

 

Why not a series of (relocatable) DZs where the mandate is to drop in the nearest (possibly NNTH)?

Edited April 25, 2024 by Newby

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

Why not a series of (relocatable) DZs where the mandate is to drop in the nearest (possibly NNTH)?

 

We had that and because it was poorly planned silly and punitive situations occurred. For example, I missed the green by a couple of meters and my ball was just in the NPZ. I had to carry my ball 30 meters back to the nearest DZ instead of taking a normal relief and chip 3-4 meters from the edge of the green.

 

In OP case this would not occur but care must be taken when establishind mandatory DZ's.

 

P.S. One lady made a par on that par4 and hit two balls into the pond. As the pond (= PA) was part of the NPZ/ACC there were no penalties. Although, being familiar with the hole layout and the NPZ I am rather sure she did not choose correct DZ's...