"Using the rules of golf to your advantage"

[davep043]

41 minutes ago, b.mattay said:

That is firmly against the spirit of a "gentleman's game". You don't go Davy Crockett into the wilderness to find a playing partner's ball unless they ask. 

In Match Play, playing by the Rules is definitely within the "spirit of the game."  If that guy didn't want the Original Ball found, he should have just taken Stroke and Distance.  By choosing a Provisional, he leaves himself open to the result he got.  This is no different from requiring a player to hit again if he's played from outside the teeing area, or NOT requiring him to hit again if his first shot went to some bad place.  I wouldn't knowingly let an Opponent do that to "trap" him, I'd correct him first, same as with playing out of turn.  But if the guy persists, I don't feel guilty at all.  

[Mr. Bean]

46 minutes ago, b.mattay said:

That is firmly against the spirit of a "gentleman's game". You don't go Davy Crockett into the wilderness to find a playing partner's ball unless they ask. 

 

Why not? Or do you mean that it is also against the spirit of a "gentleman's game" you give all 3-footers in the beginning but then on hole #10 ask him to putt it?

 

That is simply b***ocks. There are Rules and there is no way you can say Rules cannot be obeyed. Match Play is about winning the match and you use your own skills and the Rules to do it. Period.

 

Unless you do not want to win and just have a friendly match. That is another story.

[davep043]

55 minutes ago, b.mattay said:

That is firmly against the spirit of a "gentleman's game". You don't go Davy Crockett into the wilderness to find a playing partner's ball unless they ask. 

Something I didn't pick up on at first, a "playing partner's ball".  Isn't "protecting the field" a part of the "gentleman's code?"  In Stroke Play, you're simply supposed to give another Player the choice of whether to look or not, potentially gaining strokes against everyone else in the competition?   Now I won't go to tremendous lengths searching for that ball, but If I think its realistically possible to find it, I'll take at least a cursory look.  

[b.mattay]

4 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Something I didn't pick up on at first, a "playing partner's ball".  Isn't "protecting the field" a part of the "gentleman's code?"  In Stroke Play, you're simply supposed to give another Player the choice of whether to look or not, potentially gaining strokes against everyone else in the competition?   Now I won't go to tremendous lengths searching for that ball, but If I think its realistically possible to find it, I'll take at least a cursory look.  

From what I have experienced, that is a customary courtesy, yes.

Not doing so is just asking for a pace of play nightmare. 

This particularly applies on blind holes that don't have a spotter.

Edited May 7, 2024 by b.mattay

[b.mattay]

29 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Why not? Or do you mean that it is also against the spirit of a "gentleman's game" you give all 3-footers in the beginning but then on hole #10 ask him to putt it?

 

That is simply b***ocks. There are Rules and there is no way you can say Rules cannot be obeyed. Match Play is about winning the match and you use your own skills and the Rules to do it. Period.

 

Unless you do not want to win and just have a friendly match. That is another story.

I personally believe this instance is predatory on the part of the searcher. 

If the ball is in an area where an unplayable doesn't help with getting a swing, an intelligent player is going back to the tee anyways. 

You're just saving a potential walk back to the tee.

By conducting the search when not asked, you are adding excess time pressure to the match by bringing in the annoyance of the group behind you. 

 

Add-on (edit): if an area is so thick that an unplayable does not help a player, it should be marked as a hazard or internal OB. If the course is not marked as such, that is an incredibly poor setup.

Edited May 7, 2024 by b.mattay

[Mr. Bean]

17 minutes ago, davep043 said:

Something I didn't pick up on at first, a "playing partner's ball".  Isn't "protecting the field" a part of the "gentleman's code?"  In Stroke Play, you're simply supposed to give another Player the choice of whether to look or not, potentially gaining strokes against everyone else in the competition?   Now I won't go to tremendous lengths searching for that ball, but If I think its realistically possible to find it, I'll take at least a cursory look.  

 

Well... I do not see that as an issue of protecting the field. Around here it is rather customary to ask if original ball is to be searched for (that is , in stroke play). How would it protect the field if I went to search and find another player's ball in a desperate spot while that player is already lying three after the provisional? I cannot really take a grasp on that kind of thinking.

 

Dave, want to clarify?

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, b.mattay said:

That is firmly against the spirit of a "gentleman's game". You don't go Davy Crockett into the wilderness to find a playing partner's ball unless they ask. 

So in this example the guy basically gets away with playing his own personal scramble off the tee?  Sounds like the person who posted the scenario had a pretty good idea the ball could be found, and sounds like maybe the guy who hit the provisional did as well.  I'm not seeing the "ungentlemanly" or, lol, "predatory" aspect - I agree with the above - he should have just taken stroke and distance, but . . . . then maybe he couldn't head straight for the first ball he was pretty sure he could locate in play after hitting the second ball OB or having it be lost if he didn't try and use the provisional rule as a possible hedge.

Edited May 7, 2024 by Hawkeye77

[Mr. Bean]

3 minutes ago, b.mattay said:

I personally believe this instance is predatory on the part of the searcher. 

If the ball is in an area where an unplayable doesn't help with getting a swing, an intelligent player is going back to the tee anyways. 

You're just saving a potential walk back to the tee.

By conducting the search when not asked, you are adding excess time pressure to the match by bringing in the annoyance of the group behind you. 

 

You failed me completely...

 

"predatory on the part of the searcher"

 

What does that mean?

 

"If the ball is in an area where an unplayable doesn't help with getting a swing, an intelligent player is going back to the tee anyways.  You're just saving a potential walk back to the tee."

 

No, I am not saving it, I am forcing the opponent to walk back to the tee.

 

You seem to be confused on this matter. Maybe you want to correct your wordings.

 

 

[b.mattay]

2 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

So in this example the guy basically gets away with playing his own personal scramble off the tee?  Sounds like the person who posted the scenario had a pretty good idea the ball could be found, and sounds like maybe the guy who hit the provisional did as well.  I'm not seeing the "ungentlemanly" or, lol, "predatory" aspect - I agree with the above - he should have just taken stroke and distance, but . . . . then maybe he couldn't head straight for the first ball he was pretty sure he could locate in play after hitting the second ball OB or having it be lost if he didn't try and use the provisional rule as a possible crutch.

That's totally fair, I missed the part about the beeline to the first ball. In my head I was picturing at least a cursory look around the area of the 1st ball in an area where playing the next shot would be possible!  

[Hawkeye77]

Just now, b.mattay said:

That's totally fair, I missed the part about the beeline to the first ball. In my head I was picturing at least a cursory look around the area of the 1st ball in an area where playing the next shot would be possible!  

 

No worries!

[b.mattay]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

You failed me completely...

 

"predatory on the part of the searcher"

 

What does that mean?

 

"If the ball is in an area where an unplayable doesn't help with getting a swing, an intelligent player is going back to the tee anyways.  You're just saving a potential walk back to the tee."

 

No, I am not saving it, I am forcing the opponent to walk back to the tee.

 

You seem to be confused on this matter. Maybe you want to correct your wordings.

 

 

I'm simply advocating for better pace of play by trying to counteract stupid course setups.

If an area is so dense that an unplayable does not gain a swing, it should be marked as hazard or OB ahead of time. 

There are courses that are poorly laid out in this way and having someone coming back to the tee every 2nd hole gets annoying. 

Edited May 7, 2024 by b.mattay

[Mr. Bean]

8 minutes ago, b.mattay said:

I'm simply advocating for better pace of play by trying to counteract stupid course setups.

If an area is so dense that an unplayable does not gain a swing, it should be marked as hazard or OB ahead of time. 

There are courses that are poorly laid out in this way and having someone coming back to the tee every 2nd hole gets annoying. 

 

IMO course setups are not a valid part of discussions of Rules issues. Rule 1 says that a course is to be played as it is. It is up to the player to decide how to proceed on each and every course.

 

Besides, pace of play has nothing to do with trying to win a match. Both players play on the same course.

[b.mattay]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

IMO course setups are not a valid part of discussions of Rules issues. Rule 1 says that a course is to be played as it is. It is up to the player to decide how to proceed on each and every course.

 

Besides, pace of play has nothing to do with trying to win a match. Both players play on the same course.

Fair points from an academic perspective. 

I'm just trying to respect the time and energy of both my opponent and all others behind us on the course, which I believe is far more important than an optional rule utilization to inconvenience my opponent.  

[Mr. Bean]

1 minute ago, b.mattay said:

Fair points from an academic perspective. 

I'm just trying to respect the time and energy of both my opponent and all others behind us on the course, which I believe is far more important than an optional rule utilization to inconvenience my opponent.  

 

I believe it is important to separate real competitive matches from "casual" matches, as you pointed out. As this is a Rules forum the emphasis should be on the Rules instead of pace of play issues on a muni course.

[betarhoalphadelta]

1 hour ago, b.mattay said:

Fair points from an academic perspective. 

I'm just trying to respect the time and energy of both my opponent and all others behind us on the course, which I believe is far more important than an optional rule utilization to inconvenience my opponent.  

 

Except it's more than to merely "inconvenience" your opponent. The scenario was using the rule to gain an advantage in the match.

 

The opponent's provisional, from the description, was a VERY good shot. I'm guessing that @Mr. Bean believed the likelihood of his opponent repeating such a good shot after taking S&D was relatively low. The opponent, apparently, also agreed as he conceded the hole rather than taking S&D. I'd guess that if the opponent thought he'd do as well or better after S&D he'd go back to the tee just to smoke one past his first and shove it in Bean's face. (It's what I'd do lol.)

 

If the odds are that the S&D ball will be materially worse than the provisional, in a match you might make your opponent go back to the tee. (Depending of course how friendly you are, what the current score of the match is, how much money/ego/whatever is riding on the result, etc.)

 

 

[Mudguard]

For clarification it was an inter-club match, very serious, and we both knew what was happening. 

 

And to the other point, yes the course realistically should be marking these areas (and there are a lot of them) as penalty areas. 

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

The opponent's provisional, from the description, was a VERY good shot. I'm guessing that @Mr. Bean believed the likelihood of his opponent repeating such a good shot after taking S&D was relatively low. T

 

Well, hitting 3rd from the tee when opponent is lying 2 on the fairway just MIGHT put some pressure on a player...

 

Edited May 7, 2024 by Mr. Bean

[Augster]

This entire discussion is a meta-game issue. If you are trying to win, if you want to win, or if you need to win. 
 

Players that are trying to win, or want to win, likely won’t go look for that ball. The opponent is already lying 3 at his provisional and the player will likely win the hole anyway. 
 

Players that NEED to win will look for that ball 100% of the time. They know if they find it, their opponent will either have to go back to the tee, hitting 3, or concede the hole. 
 

Basically, how competitive are you? 

Edited May 7, 2024 by Augster

[goaliedad30]

12 minutes ago, Augster said:

They know if they find it, their opponent will either have to go back to the tee, hitting 5, or concede the hole. 

 

He is hitting three from the tee. Upon finding the original, the provisional no longer exists.

[rogolf]

2 hours ago, Mudguard said:

For clarification it was an inter-club match, very serious, and we both knew what was happening. 

 

And to the other point, yes the course realistically should be marking these areas (and there are a lot of them) as penalty areas. 

They could mark them as penalty areas, but seems they’ve decided not to.   “Play hard” comes to mind!

[jda]

Not me, but a player in our group was in a place that was out of bounds most of the time, but the stakes were gone and no white line drawn.  This is in bounds for that day.

 

Also, straight line in between stakes near a hazard if there is no red/yellow paint.  If you are near the lake, but the two stakes are behind you, then you are not in the hazard.

 

Local club has a "leaf rule" in the fall, but it is not on the scorecard or made available to any player before a round.  This means it is not a rule and it is a lost ball in the rough.

Edited May 7, 2024 by jda

[kiwigolf72]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

This entire discussion is a meta-game issue. If you are trying to win, if you want to win, or if you need to win. 
 

Players that are trying to win, or want to win, likely won’t go look for that ball. The opponent is already lying 3 at his provisional and the player will likely win the hole anyway. 
 

Players that NEED to win will look for that ball 100% of the time. They know if they find it, their opponent will either have to go back to the tee, hitting 5, or concede the hole. 
 

Basically, how competitive are you? 

hitting 5 ?

[Augster]

17 minutes ago, kiwigolf72 said:

hitting 5 ?

Thanks. Adjusted. 

[Mudguard]

6 hours ago, rogolf said:

They could mark them as penalty areas, but seems they’ve decided not to.   “Play hard” comes to mind!

Yeah it's unusually penal. I did raise it as they don't use Model Rule E5 either. I was told if one hits it into the junk and your subsequent provisional is good, then don't look for the first ball!

I thought was madness. Of course if you hit a provisional, find the original in the pine scrub (and can't play or drop it) then you're toast and have to go back to the tee wasting even more time. That was when I was told I shouldn't bother looking for the first ball 🤦‍♂️

[rogolf]

9 hours ago, Mudguard said:

Yeah it's unusually penal. I did raise it as they don't use Model Rule E5 either. I was told if one hits it into the junk and your subsequent provisional is good, then don't look for the first ball!

I thought was madness. Of course if you hit a provisional, find the original in the pine scrub (and can't play or drop it) then you're toast and have to go back to the tee wasting even more time. That was when I was told I shouldn't bother looking for the first ball 🤦‍♂️

While pace of play is important, there are many times that following the Rules is a much higher priority than pace.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

While pace of play is important, there are many times that following the Rules is a much higher priority than pace.

 

Exactly!

 

Rules come first, PoP comes after. Even if the competition cannot be pulled through in the anticipated time it is of paramount importance that it is pulled through by the Rules of Golf.

[nsxguy]

On 5/7/2024 at 10:48 AM, kiawah said:

That is my go to. I pulled that one out on Saturday haha

 

Edit for those confused: ball was sitting a foot left of cart path, took my stance lefty because I couldn't make a stance righty. Dropped to right of cart path to the closest point of complete relief no nearer the hole. 

 

How about those of us who are still confused ?

 

Your ball is left of the path in the general area but you can't hit it righty.

 

So you take a stance to hit it lefty and find yourself on a cart path (just like in the video linked earlier).

 

I'm struggling to visualize how your nearest point of relief is on the right side of the cart path. Maybe that's what "confused" Mr B ?

[kiawah]

1 minute ago, nsxguy said:

 

How about those of us who are still confused ?

 

Your ball is left of the path in the general area but you can't hit it righty.

 

So you take a stance to hit it lefty and find yourself on a cart path (just like in the video linked earlier).

 

I'm struggling to visualize how your nearest point of relief is on the right side of the cart path. Maybe that's what "confused" Mr B ?

There is only about 2-3 feet of room left of the cart path between the cart path and a fence. No matter where I dropped to the left of the path I would have been able to claim stance relief. Going backwards would not change anything because the distance between path and fence is consistent going back about 50 yards. I believe closest point of complete relief would have been to the right of the cart path. 

[Mr. Bean]

58 minutes ago, kiawah said:

There is only about 2-3 feet of room left of the cart path between the cart path and a fence. No matter where I dropped to the left of the path I would have been able to claim stance relief. Going backwards would not change anything because the distance between path and fence is consistent going back about 50 yards. I believe closest point of complete relief would have been to the right of the cart path. 

 

So that fence was not indicating the margin of the course but was a normal Immovable Obstruction?

[Shankyouverymuch]

I feel like Jordan Spieth has used rules in his favor a few times. Wasn't it just a few weeks ago that he hit 90* away from the direction of the hole into a grandstand area because there was a designated relief area for balls hit into that which offered him a better shot than trying to punch out? Then a few years ago in the Open Championship he knew that he was able to go to the other side of the fairway at an equal distance for his relief and was able to hit to the green.