VICE Golf - New Irons

[subrew]

Maybe I have lived under a rock, but I didn't realize VICE was offering irons now.  Both a forged hollow-body (VGi01) and what I assume is a cast cavity-hollow setup (VGi02):

 

https://www.vicegolf.com/golf-clubs/irons/vice-golf-vgi01-green

 

https://www.vicegolf.com/golf-clubs/irons/vice-golf-vgi02-lime

 

 

Edited May 28, 2024 by subrew

[subrew]

Saw this shot on IG of some demo heads of both irons and their wedge:

 

 

[TheMoneyShot]

Not sure how these will sell but the forged version don’t look bad at all imho. 

[JoshBro]

Are all of these DTC iron heads being made in the same place? I get that theres only so much variety to be had, but these look just like the new Bettinardi MB ones

[phizzy30]

29 minutes ago, JoshBro said:

Are all of these DTC iron heads being made in the same place? I get that theres only so much variety to be had, but these look just like the new Bettinardi MB ones

Yeah, they kinda do but waaaaay cheaper.  I definitely wouldn't mind putting the forged ones in the bag. 

[teedub21]

pretty nice looking, no lefty stuff though.

[HeftyLefty5]

54 minutes ago, JoshBro said:

Are all of these DTC iron heads being made in the same place? I get that theres only so much variety to be had, but these look just like the new Bettinardi MB ones

 

Yes.

[roundersmitty]

Can get New Level or Takomo for cheaper with way more shaft options and build options 

[andrelo]

They also are doing putters now but the putters look to be frank, pretty awful. These irons aren't bad looking at all. 

Edited May 29, 2024 by andrelo

[LPSISCO]

I’m a hard pass on that lime green paint 🙂

[CanFred]

Saw the Vice mallet recently...its something.  These irons don't look bad, but as others have pointed out, I'm assuming these are all coming from the same place at this point.

[this_is_golf]

The black accent irons don’t look bad. What shafts are those? And am I missing the specs somewhere? 

[NRJyzr]

14 hours ago, LPSISCO said:

I’m a hard pass on that lime green paint 🙂

 

I would probably think about doing that intentionally   😁

 

[TiScape]

17 hours ago, JoshBro said:

Are all of these DTC iron heads being made in the same place? I get that theres only so much variety to be had, but these look just like the new Bettinardi MB ones

These DTC clubs that are essentially picked outta a catalog and branded by the buyer reminds me of the recent rash of celebrity spirits. Seems every time I turn around some celeb is pushing their new tequila or vodka. Neither is actually designing/developing anything. 

[elwhippy]

These look dreadful. Stick to golf balls. 

[IndyArcher]

On 5/28/2024 at 6:37 PM, TheMoneyShot said:

Not sure how these will sell but the forged version don’t look bad at all imho. 

 

I actually think it looks fantastic! 

I fear them getting too much into the mainstream, though, as I don't want to see their ball prices rise to be seen as equal to the 'big boys'. 

[IndyArcher]

Horrible shaft selection options, no customization for loft/lie. No grip options. Price is not at all good for a new entry into the market. For $80 more I can get an equivalent set of Cobra Forged MB or a flow set with MUCH better options. Do like the look of the Vice Forged in black, but at that price, NO THANKS!

[Cameron Circle T]

Weird—ClubChampion is going to offer these in their stores... That seems very strange since there are no options through Vice for any customization.

[MattM97]

24 minutes ago, Cameron Circle T said:

Weird—ClubChampion is going to offer these in their stores... That seems very strange since there are no options through Vice for any customization.

 

CC is gonna price these out in line with a set of Miura irons.

[dekez]

On 5/28/2024 at 7:39 PM, roundersmitty said:

Can get New Level or Takomo for cheaper with way more shaft options and build options 

For what it's worth, there was an article on an unnamed site that categorized these DTCs based on whether they did any R&D (higher tier) or just used open molds (lower tier).  They loosely classified Sub70, New Level and Hogan as higher tier, Ram and MacGregor mid-tier and Takomo and Caley as low tier.  // That said, it was noted that these didnt necessarily translate into their performance.

[jls667]

I got the e-mail about them and as someone who plays the Pro Plus and uses Sub70 irons I was pretty exited. Really liked the look of the MB's.....then I clicked the link to their site and saw not only what they're charging but the lack of options available and immediately went back to mowing the lawn.

 

For me, what makes Sub70 great is the opposite of what Vice is doing with their clubs. Vice entered the market with prices nearly inline with major OEMs with super limited custom options being built god knows where. In today's golf equipment market, why even bother if you're not going to at least have a number of custom options? Like someone said, for $80 more I can get a set of Cobras with more innovation and tech with my shaft and specs. And don't forget the likely terrible resale for when we inevitably list them on BST.

[PSUJJH86]

13 hours ago, MattM97 said:

 

CC is gonna price these out in line with a set of Miura irons.

These irons will really sing once fitted with pured shafts from CC!

[KGrinols]

While I agree, I was shocked by their pricing decision, it seems incredibly unfair to automatically assume they lack any innovation or tech before we've seen anyone test them.

 

The lack of options is completely valid though, only 1 degree either way, and nearly no shafts... The only people who wouldn't be turned away by that lack of options would be people who would be in a lower price bracket, so it seems counter intuitive to me.

 

Having said that, I watched the 2 YouTube videos last night and they put the Vice wedge up against a Vokey, and the Vice was spinning 1k more, breaking 11k spin consistently at 56 degrees.  Fresh grooves obviously, so grain of salt, but that at least implies these aren't just some lazy attempt at golf equipment, they're trying to make a legitimate product up to the standards of the big OEMs.

 

The VGI01 looks good, but is not my style.

The VGI02 looks ugly to my eye.

I like the way the Mallett putter looks, quite a bit actually with plenty of customizing options, but again, the price doesn't make sense to me.

 

I think it will be interesting to see where they go.  Strategically, there are incentives to higher price points on your first release, and offering DTC pricing on a lower model later on down the road.  Human instinct sometimes won't let you go the other way.

 

For example, if Takomo puts out a $2000 set tomorrow... Will any of you take that dive, or are they forever in your mind as a low end budget brand?

 

Now go the other way.  PXG was originally the Lamborghini price and profile iron set, 3k+ or some s***.  They built an image of luxury, exclusivity, and then... Dropped DTC priced range of the 0211 Irons, Driver, etc and we ate it up like crazy because us poor folk could finally afford a piece of that elite tier manufacturing.

 

Consider your outlook today on PXG (commercials aside) vs Takomo and you can quickly understand that the first release you bring to market, can have long lasting effects on the way your company will forever be viewed.

 

Like all of you, I also expected a more budget friendly line of equipment.  But if they can prove to be on equal ground with their equipment, and undercutting the OEMs just slightly, then that gives them options for the future to go either direction.

 

So it's fair to be caught off guard by their strategy, I don't think it means their strategy isn't the correct play for long term success.

[IndyArcher]

6 minutes ago, KGrinols said:

While I agree, I was shocked by their pricing decision, it seems incredibly unfair to automatically assume they lack any innovation or tech before we've seen anyone test them.

 

The lack of options is completely valid though, only 1 degree either way, and nearly no shafts... The only people who wouldn't be turned away by that lack of options would be people who would be in a lower price bracket, so it seems counter intuitive to me.

 

Having said that, I watched the 2 YouTube videos last night and they put the Vice wedge up against a Vokey, and the Vice was spinning 1k more, breaking 11k spin consistently at 56 degrees.  Fresh grooves obviously, so grain of salt, but that at least implies these aren't just some lazy attempt at golf equipment, they're trying to make a legitimate product up to the standards of the big OEMs.

 

The VGI01 looks good, but is not my style.

The VGI02 looks ugly to my eye.

I like the way the Mallett putter looks, quite a bit actually with plenty of customizing options, but again, the price doesn't make sense to me.

 

I think it will be interesting to see where they go.  Strategically, there are incentives to higher price points on your first release, and offering DTC pricing on a lower model later on down the road.  Human instinct sometimes won't let you go the other way.

 

For example, if Takomo puts out a $2000 set tomorrow... Will any of you take that dive, or are they forever in your mind as a low end budget brand?

 

Now go the other way.  PXG was originally the Lamborghini price and profile iron set, 3k+ or some s***.  They built an image of luxury, exclusivity, and then... Dropped DTC priced range of the 0211 Irons, Driver, etc and we ate it up like crazy because us poor folk could finally afford a piece of that elite tier manufacturing.

 

Consider your outlook today on PXG (commercials aside) vs Takomo and you can quickly understand that the first release you bring to market, can have long lasting effects on the way your company will forever be viewed.

 

Like all of you, I also expected a more budget friendly line of equipment.  But if they can prove to be on equal ground with their equipment, and undercutting the OEMs just slightly, then that gives them options for the future to go either direction.

 

So it's fair to be caught off guard by their strategy, I don't think it means their strategy isn't the correct play for long term success.

 

I think one difference between Vice and PXG is that Vice BUILT the company on a reputation of affordable, DTC. "Equal quality at a drastically reduced price tag" was the point. Now the appearance seems to be "Almost equal quality at an almost equally high price!" I don't say "almost equal" because the clubs might not be the same quality as some other forging out there, but let's face it, the likelihood that these are going to be the same quality as Mizuno, Cobra, etc is virtually nil. Add to that the (IMO) somewhat cheesy look of the painted lines on the clubs and it just doesn't rate to being a $1000+ set of 4-P clubs for most consumers who can get into a known brand for not much more $$. Now, cut the price by 30-40% like they've done on their balls and they may be onto something. 

 

There is no disputing the fact that I could end up being wildly wrong here, but trying to enter a value brand into the club market with nearly the same pricing as the big names just seems like a gamble to me. 

[Cameron Circle T]

Especially when you cannot try them anywhere but club champion.  You're taking a big risk on DTC brand that will have absolute crap resale.  You can resell one of the major oem irons for a decent recovery. I'd bet these hold very little value and are pretty hard to move on the secondary market.

[KGrinols]

11 minutes ago, IndyArcher said:

I think one difference between Vice and PXG is that Vice BUILT the company on a reputation of affordable, DTC.

But... That was my point?

 

If your first golf equipment drop is 'affordable' you'll never escape that market.

That's why I used PXG as an example.  If the 0211 line was the first club they ever released, at $99 a club, direct to consumer... they would still be viewed as a budget company today and would never have a chance to sell a 3k set of irons and market themselves as the Lamborghini of golf.

 

But because PXG started with the Lamborghini marketing angle, and then offered a budget line, it doesn't have lasting impact on their image, and they were able to successfully market and sell both lines.

In fact, the profits from the high end release, are what make the low end release possible.

 

Ergo, my point was, regardless of what Vice does with golf balls, they only have 1 chance at a first impression with golf equipment.  If they entered the market as a value company, they will struggle forever to escape that box.

I mean, look at how hard you are fighting the notion of releasing a product that's 'slightly' cheaper than OEMs.  You've already locked in your mind that they aren't allowed to do that.  You're forcing a glass ceiling on their products, because you like their cheaper golf balls.

 

A box of Callaway SuperSofts is only $24 a box, should Callaway clubs be discounted because of that?  See how the perspective changes based on how and when you offer a budget option?

 

The only way to break the glass ceiling, in this example, is to literally price yourself above that ceiling and let the world come to terms with the fact, that just because you sell budget balls, doesn't mean you have to sell budget equipment.

 

You only get 1 chance at a first impression.  Vice has made it clear, they do not intend to position themselves as 'only' a budget company.

 

As I stated previously, I understand that may shock you/many and I completely agree, I too was caught off guard, but I think it's a smart strategy, if their goal is truly to have long term success in the market as anything more than that.

 

This is their first and only chance to break the mindset people have of them only being a budget company.  I think they did the right thing, based on their goals.  Whether it's a goal I think will succeed in today's market, is a different story.

 

My personal opinion is that the middle ground of golf is a dead zone.  Either you market like crazy and target people who want the name brand... Or you undercut significantly and capitalize on the other end of the market, like Takomo, Maltby, Kirkland, PXG 0211, etc.

 

If Mizuno struggles to move Woods, Drivers, and Hybrids, even at a discount, even with proven performance equal to all other OEMs... No one else should be thinking that's a good market to price yourself into, but I'm sure someone who gets paid a lot more than me, already did the research.

 

I don't know anyone who is like "I don't want to pay top dollar for TM, but I also don't want to save the most money on a budget brand like Takomo, give me the worst of both right in the middle!". That middle market seems like such a losing space in the industry to me, but I could very well be wrong.

[IndyArcher]

3 minutes ago, KGrinols said:

But... That was my point?

 

If your first golf equipment drop is 'affordable' you'll never escape that market.

 

 

But that IS their market, AND it's the very market they SAID they WANTED. Remember the whole, "We don't pay people to play with our balls!" thing?? Are they now trying to give us the shaft? 

 

So, IF they are intentionally trying to move AWAY from the 'quality but affordable' market, does that mean that we can soon expect to see sponsorships and pricing equivalent to ProV1, etc? Their clubs are going to have to have a much classier profile if that's the case; otherwise, their products are sending a very conflicting message, IMO. 

[Cameron Circle T]

11 minutes ago, IndyArcher said:

 

But that IS their market, AND it's the very market they SAID they WANTED. Remember the whole, "We don't pay people to play with our balls!" thing?? Are they now trying to give us the shaft? 

 

So, IF they are intentionally trying to move AWAY from the 'quality but affordable' market, does that mean that we can soon expect to see sponsorships and pricing equivalent to ProV1, etc? Their clubs are going to have to have a much classier profile if that's the case; otherwise, their products are sending a very conflicting message, IMO. 

This...

 

No one is going to distinguish between Vice entering the ball market and the club market.  Vice has too long a reputation as an affordable company with a goofy shtick for clothes/towels/a million "limited edition" golf balls for every major etc.  If PXG had been an affordable ball company and entered the club market at the price point it did, people would've thought it was nuts.

 

Callaway is an inapt comparison.  It is a full service golf company that started out so long ago with a normal priced club line that this doesn't really work.  If Callaway offered supersofts forever and then brought out 1000 dollar drivers, yea people would look at them like they were crazy.  If they started out offering a 60 dollar Pro V1 competitor, you'd say "ohhh this is a tour-level ball company bringing out tour-level clubs!"

 

They also needed to do something other than offer colored shafts with little to no information.  If their product offerings came out looking like Sub70 or Hogan, I might buy it.  But their clubs look like they fall right into their ball shtick (and I love and play their ball!).  And that is not a premium-priced offering.

Edited May 30, 2024 by Cameron Circle T

[KGrinols]

5 minutes ago, IndyArcher said:

 

But that IS their market, AND it's the very market they SAID they WANTED. Remember the whole, "We don't pay people to play with our balls!" thing?? Are they now trying to give us the shaft? 

 

So, IF they are intentionally trying to move AWAY from the 'quality but affordable' market, does that mean that we can soon expect to see sponsorships and pricing equivalent to ProV1, etc? Their clubs are going to have to have a much classier profile if that's the case; otherwise, their products are sending a very conflicting message, IMO. 

This is why I asked you about Callaway SuperSofts.

 

Are you allowed to sell budget balls and high end equipment, or not?

 

Mizuno sells top dollar irons, but price their woods usually $100 lower than other major OEMs.  Are they a budget company now that's no longer allowed to price their irons competitively?

 

Wilson Dynapower driver is $200.

But the Wilson Staff blades are $1199.  Are we scoffing at that?

 

Every other company in the market is allowed to target different markets for different products.  Why not Vice?

 

6 minutes ago, Cameron Circle T said:

No one is going to distinguish between Vice entering the ball market and the club market.

 

Why not?

 

Why are Titleist clubs so cheap then?  Pro V1s are the most expensive ball on the market, why is Titleist equipment the same price as every other major OEM, instead of significantly more expensive?

According to you guys, your golf equipment can not possibly be differentiated from your golf balls.

 

Except for every other company that does it every day for decades, not named Vice.

 

That harder you guys fight to force Vice to be a budget company, the more you prove my point that this was the best strategic move for them, to get OUT of that box that you want to trap them in.

 

As I said, I don't know if that's a smart business decision that will work, but it's obvious that the general consensus refuses to acknowledge them as anything other than budget.  So how do you break that cycle?  By releasing high end equipment that defies any notion of budget.

[Cameron Circle T]

27 minutes ago, KGrinols said:

This is why I asked you about Callaway SuperSofts.

 

Are you allowed to sell budget balls and high end equipment, or not?

It goes back to your point about starting high end—Callaway started high-end and entered the budget ball market much later.

 

27 minutes ago, KGrinols said:

 

Mizuno sells top dollar irons, but price their woods usually $100 lower than other major OEMs.  Are they a budget company now that's no longer allowed to price their irons competitively?

 

You've identified it yourself several times—they entered the high-end equipment a long time ago as their primary golf market.  Their woods were good a LONG time ago and were priced similarly to other companies.  They've long had a reputation for amazing irons that justify the price.  But their woods have been terrible for a while, and they've had to try to undercut in price and they still don't really sell well in mass market.  Their marketshare compared to say...Titleist sales...for woods is tiny.  If they were a new company trying to enter the iron market and all they had made was 200 dollar woods, they'd have a VERY hard time selling folks 1100 blades (especially if they looked like some open mold from a Chinese foundry).

 

27 minutes ago, KGrinols said:

 

Why are Titleist clubs so cheap then?  Pro V1s are the most expensive ball on the market, why is Titleist equipment the same price as every other major OEM, instead of significantly more expensive?

According to you guys, your golf equipment can not possibly be differentiated from your golf balls.

 

Except for every other company that does it every day for decades, not named Vice.

 

Titleist balls are identical in price to Callaway's tour ball, Taylormade's tour ball, etc. They're 54.99 for their "tour grade" balls.  Their clubs are also right in line with everyone else.  They also offer a lower end ball.  But back in the day the Titleist Professional and the Balata were the gold standard of "tour level" balls that were expensive.  If they entered with the AVX (or whatever their cheap ball is, I don't know its name), they'd have trouble.

They can't be differentiated if they look like they follow the same ethos.  Vice has been a "lifestyle" golf brand about bright colors and bucking the trends and not paying pros etc.  Indy identified it—are they going to start paying tour pros to play their irons (I cannot imagine any would take what they could offer) to convince us they're tour quality and worth the price I can get a set of Titleist's for?

 

27 minutes ago, KGrinols said:

 

That harder you guys fight to force Vice to be a budget company, the more you prove my point that this was the best strategic move for them, to get OUT of that box that you want to trap them in.

 

As I said, I don't know if that's a smart business decision that will work, but it's obvious that the general consensus refuses to acknowledge them as anything other than budget.  So how do you break that cycle?  By releasing high end equipment that defies any notion of budget.

 

Perhaps they COULD have broken the mold with the right strategy and approach.  It'd be an uphill battle. The problem is they DIDN'T. You can try to change expectations.  But you've got to wow people to get them to change their minds about you as a company.  The offering doesn't do that.  If they came out with something that was market-changing (PXG kind of did that at the time with the highly customizable iron head weights etc. and they took designers from Ping) they might have been able to overcome things.  PXG also dumped a ton of money into marketing to convince people that they were high end.  Heck, if they came out with something that was even on par with Ben Hogan or Sub70, they might've been able to hit those brands' pricing.

 

Vice instead comes out with pretty limited options that carry on with their shtick of bright colors and looks (paintfill is one of your few options!) being their distinguishing factor.  You can choose your shaft by color (at least they tell you True Temper makes the steel and Mitsubishi makes the graphite, but what shaft are they??), flex, and weight.  That is not what a serious golfer is going to lay out 900 bucks on irons for.  So I don't think anyone who would shell out that much for irons is going to be convinced they're doing anything other than what they've been doing—rebranding some third-party's product—when they do something like that.

 

Your sum total of options for irons is:

 

+/– 1º loft & lie

length

color of ferrule

color of shaft

color of grip (major option seems to be of unknown origin, but they do offer a Lamkin option)

color of paintfill on the back

 

This is exactly what their balls were all about when they came out—fun colors! That's great. I've played their golf balls since they came out.  I remember their Pink Flamingo. I loved that ball.  But for $1000 bucks, I'd want more options than customizing the color of a few components of my irons.

 

I'm not exactly anti cheap or expensive clubs or balls.  I have a set of PXG 0311T's in one bag in my garage and a set of Maltby TS4's in another bag.  I also have dozens of Maxfli Tour and Vice Pro as well as TP5's.  I 

just think that they've failed if they were trying to convince me that these clubs were about anything different than their balls.

 

 

Edited May 30, 2024 by Cameron Circle T