DON'T hold the lag?

[ThinkingPlus]

16 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

"Let it go" is largely meaningless because impact isn't something you can control, it's a result of what went before. 

 

"Get lessons" won't be that helpful unless you understand that feel isn't real. 

 

You do understand that "feel is not real" doesn't mean that what you feel is never real, right? It means that what you feel is probably not real. I guess that if we want to be sematically correct you could adapt it to "Feel is rarely real, but sometimes it is, so don't take it for granted. Measure, video, observe." That's not quite as catchy though.

How about, "One measurement is worth a thousand feels"? LOL. That somehow sounds a little creepy...

[TheDeanAbides]

1 minute ago, ThinkingPlus said:

How about, "One measurement is worth a thousand feels"? LOL. That somehow sounds a little creepy...

I typed and then backspaced a few answers to that one! 

[MonteScheinblum]

5 hours ago, Jugs said:

 

It's not necessarily a question of whether a sequence starts from ground up but a question about what happens if a player comes out of transition and succumbs to a hit impulse.  Even though they are using ground they really aren't, so at that point is the player involved with managing the swing with hands and arms, or is the swing allowed to gain and control on it's own while its coming through.   Give up control to gain control is the idea. 

 

I'm sure flat earthers have considered earth is not flat, we stand in a bowl- we stand on the horizon while our eyes are level with it. 🌍 <lol>   

Hit impulse is shoulders spinning open early and arms being late 

[Soloman1]

hit a one-handed backhand in tennis.

which foot has most pressure?

what does your lead leg do?

where are you hips and shoulders?

[MonteScheinblum]

12 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

hit a one-handed backhand in tennis.

which foot has most pressure?

what does your lead leg do?

where are you hips and shoulders?

My arm is passive and the ball never gets to the net

[iNeedMoreGolf]

The lag swing thought is a swing killer. The sooner you stop chasing lag and more distance as a regular player the sooner your scores will start getting better. The goal is to play the course... plan your shots even if you cant work the ball and put a natural swing on the ball. Let the club be the guide to your distance not how hard or fast or how much lag you can generate. A good grip is way more key then that lag talk. Learn to drive it straight as you can... a good short game and use your instincts and you will see huge benefits.

[nikos74]

12 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

The important factors.

 

When golfers are measured:

 

1.  The arms trail the thorax by .01 seconds in elite players.  
2.  Elite players and long hitters accelerate their arms/hands earlier and faster.

3.  Most ams have their arms trailing their body badly.  90%, both visually and when measured.

4. Starting with the arms is IMPOSSIBLE.  
 

None of the above is opinion.

 

Ground up passive arm narrative persists.

 

Welcome to flat earth.

There are probably over a hundred videos on Youtube that say "don't rush the downswing" and some even say don't pull the club down with your hands/arms.  I assume the majority are made by PGA professionals.  What are they trying to convey or do you think they are wrong?

[Soloman1]

43 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

My arm is passive and the ball never gets to the net

 

ah yes, the pivot-driven tennis shot.

[TheDeanAbides]

15 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

There are probably over a hundred videos on Youtube that say "don't rush the downswing" and some even say don't pull the club down with your hands/arms.  I assume the majority are made by PGA professionals.  What are they trying to convey or do you think they are wrong?

What this really means is "Don't screw up your sequencing by rushing to open up your shoulders". Most ams are stuck in trying to leave their arms behind the torso rotation to create lag. 

[CoreyW1369]

29 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

What this really means is "Don't screw up your sequencing by rushing to open up your shoulders". Most ams are stuck in trying to leave their arms behind the torso rotation to create lag. 

I’m plagued by the hit impulse even though I’m not focused on lag. At least not consciously. Perhaps a vestige of earlier days when I absolutely was. 
 

Is the remedy Justin Rose drills?

[TheDeanAbides]

1 minute ago, Golf_Goof said:

I’m plagued by the hit impulse even though I’m not focused on lag. At least not consciously. Perhaps a vestige of earlier days when I absolutely was. 
 

Is the remedy Justin Rose drills?

Very often it's a combo of that and NTC.

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, nikos74 said:

There are probably over a hundred videos on Youtube that say "don't rush the downswing" and some even say don't pull the club down with your hands/arms.  I assume the majority are made by PGA professionals.  What are they trying to convey or do you think they are wrong?

Most are not pga pros.  Many PGA pros are just as in the dark as the average golfer as they have not taken the time to learn and evolve their knowledge.  They are conveying an antiquated narrative.    Nearly all elite golfers  on YouTube are speaking of delaying rotation and bringing the arms down and release earlier.  Nicklaus, Rose, Woods, Dechambeau, Garcia, Harrington, Mcilroy, to name a few.
 

You are not combative nor rude, but I have to be straight.  Many of the ideas you post here are decades old concepts that have been disproven with modern technology and measuring what actually happens.  There’s no shame in that.  Shame would be turning a blind eye, which many do.

 

Rushing the upper torso open is the rushed move, not accelerating the arms/hands on time.  

Edited June 8, 2024 by MonteScheinblum

[iacas]

6 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Which is why the myth of a slow and smooth backswing is nonsense. You need the momentum of a fast arm swing back to create decent tempo and a fast arm swing from the top.

 

We talked about making a faster backswing in our book, but that said, it's not a need. I typically swing my 6I just north of 90 MPH and today I was working on something^*, pausing at the top, and then doing my thing^* from there. I regularly got to 94 and 95 MPH. Higher than typical.

 

So, it's a bit pedantic, but it's not a "need." It does help, though.

 

^* I'm actually working on… moving the arms as quickly as possible, as wide as possible, as early as possible. Somewhat relevant as the hands getting down sooner delivers a little less loft and a higher smash factor.

 

5 hours ago, Jugs said:

The golf swing is a combination of hitting a baseball (body) and chopping wood (arms).    Two separate systems combining, some call it merging, into one system that's amplified by the merge.  Arms away is not good, anchors aweigh is, merge arms and pivot and set sail.   

 

Depending on what you mean by "arms away" I might disagree. A wide hand path is often a good hand path.

 

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Rushing the upper torso open is the rushed move, not accelerating the arms/hands on time.  

 

Yep. Early turning and passive arms carries the hands out toward the golf ball while leaving them high, requiring the golfer to stall the pivot and often tip right early so that they can get the clubhead and hands down to the ball.

 

That was one of the central themes to two of my lessons today.

[Soloman1]

it’s estimated (by others) that 80-85% of recreational golfers slice.

 

maybe if people stopped rotating the torso so fast, throwing the trail shoulder out and across in the early part of the downswing, it would help.

 

unless people like slicing drives 185 yards out and curving 40 yards to the right. in that case, just keep doing it that way.

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

38 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

it’s estimated (by others) that 80-85% of recreational golfers slice.

 

maybe if people stopped rotating the torso so fast, throwing the trail shoulder out and across in the early part of the downswing, it would help.

 

unless people like slicing drives 185 yards out and curving 40 yards to the right. in that case, just keep doing it that way.

 

 

👏

[MonteScheinblum]

On the left, torso and shoulders opening early and the quintessential hands behind thigh at p6 from firing the hips and sliding while leaving left arm pinned to spinning torso, FORCING him to cast the lag to get the club to the ball.  Holding lag he’d miss it.

 

Throwing a head cover left handed as far as you can when you would never think to do any of the above.  Perfect sequencing no casting needed.🤯🤯🤯🤯

Edited June 8, 2024 by MonteScheinblum

[Zeph]

1 hour ago, Soloman1 said:

it’s estimated (by others) that 80-85% of recreational golfers slice.

 

maybe if people stopped rotating the torso so fast, throwing the trail shoulder out and across in the early part of the downswing, it would help.

 

unless people like slicing drives 185 yards out and curving 40 yards to the right. in that case, just keep doing it that way.

Someone has to bring the views to all the “INSTANT Slice Fix!” videos out there.

[TheDeanAbides]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

We talked about making a faster backswing in our book, but that said, it's not a need. I typically swing my 6I just north of 90 MPH and today I was working on something^*, pausing at the top, and then doing my thing^* from there. I regularly got to 94 and 95 MPH. Higher than typical.

 

So, it's a bit pedantic, but it's not a "need." It does help, though.

 

 

I hear you. I was talking generally, so, yes, need wasn't the best word. 

[TheDeanAbides]

40 minutes ago, Jugs said:

 

Lord, have mercy, one has finally seen the light.    Of course it can't be controlled, that's why there's nothing more to do out of transition other than to 'let it go', let the club be a club, it's probably one of the more meaningful things one can do. 

But it's meaningless because without everything that allows the letting go to be in placethey'd hit it off the planet. People who hold on for grim death and fail to release the club don't do it consciously - it's a compensation to hit the ball. 

 

[tthomasgolfer605]

With lag,  I basically don't try to throw or hold the angle. With hip turn, I don't resist or try to turn them. I will say that if you turn the body, the arms must swing up. As you turn on the downswing, they must swing down. Your pressure shift needs to be good though. I see golfers who turn way too much with no arm swing. A friend of mine hits a bad shot and says he didn't turn. I'm like, yeah you did. 

[MonteScheinblum]

Ensalada palabra

[Soloman1]

1 hour ago, Jugs said:

But if slicing comes naturally to that many folks why not teach by explaining to them what they are doing biomechanically

 

because their eyes become glassy and roll back in their heads? 🙂

 

 

i could write a book on biomechanics, but it’s more for the instructor and than the player.

 

 

[betarhoalphadelta]

8 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

 

You do understand that "feel is not real" doesn't mean that what you feel is never real, right? It means that what you feel is probably not real. I guess that if we want to be sematically correct you could adapt it to "Feel is rarely real, but sometimes it is, so don't take it for granted. Measure, video, observe." That's not quite as catchy though.

 

I'd go with "whatever feel creates the right real is valid."

 

Or to paraphrase something I've heard regarding statistical models...

 

"All feels are wrong. Some of them are useful."

 

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

 

"All feels are wrong. Some of them are useful."

 

 

[mgoblue83]

This has turned into a continuation of the thread about speed from last week.

 

The arms and hands are incredibly important to generating speed and must be active in the swing.

 

Additionally, hand a forearm strength (grip strength) is a huge limiting factor for slow swingers. They are not strong enough to transfer the body and ground forces into the shaft and club head so the brain ends up limiting speed subconsciously.

[Ri_Redneck]

19 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

When it’s measured it’s actually the opposite in elite players and long hitters.

I'm not surprised. Odds are if mine were measured, it would show the same thing. But it still feels the way it feels and that's really all that I can go by.

 

BT

[Ri_Redneck]

11 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

"Feel isn't real" is the most important teaching phrase in golf. 

IMHO, feel needs to relate to real by seeing what you're doing and relating it to the feels. Many hear "feel isn't real" and figure they have to use something other than feel to make a proper swing. And that is impossible. All we have to go on while swinging a golf club is feel.

 

BT

[CoreyW1369]

7 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

it’s estimated (by others) that 80-85% of recreational golfers slice.

 

maybe if people stopped rotating the torso so fast, throwing the trail shoulder out and across in the early part of the downswing, it would help.

 

unless people like slicing drives 185 yards out and curving 40 yards to the right. in that case, just keep doing it that way.

 

 

“maybe if people stopped” implies some level of intent to accomplish those actions - when those actions seem to be the result of the intent to hit the golf ball hard. 
 

Focusing on not doing some thing(s) is futile. 
 

 

[Soloman1]

[iNeedMoreGolf]

If you hold lag what happens??? You come into the ball with an open face most likely. Swing to the top then swing back to the ball in slow motion holding that angle.. way open face. Now do that at normal speed on the range. Shank right. 

Lag is a natural accurance you dont have to think about. If you over do it because of trying to do it you will shank it right most likely. Heres the key. See target. Line up. Correct grip. Feel comfortable. Apply smooth reactionary swing. Thats it. Anything swing adjument wise comes from bad lies. Below feet above feet or deep in rough or sand. Its just adjusting to strike the ball correctly. Swing thoughts are mostly bad. Just react. You need a correct grip though. Anyone see jim furyks swing??? Isnt he good at golf?? Thats because only impact matters. If you have natural long distance great but if not pull the correct club to fly the distance. Most balls stick the landing unless your a severe low ball hitter.