DON'T hold the lag?

[TheDeanAbides]

5 hours ago, Ri_Redneck said:

IMHO, feel needs to relate to real by seeing what you're doing and relating it to the feels. Many hear "feel isn't real" and figure they have to use something other than feel to make a proper swing. And that is impossible. All we have to go on while swinging a golf club is feel.

 

BT

I agreee, which is why I added the longer version, and others improved on it. Saying "feel isn't real" and then just abandoning the player without context is stoopid. It's three words to remind us that we have to check and measure instead of taking feels for granted. 

[Valtiel]

17 hours ago, Simpsonia said:

When people are saying fire the arms, they aren't talking about firing the arms in transition, they're talking about firing the arms to start the downswing, ie as you are reestablishing lead side pressure.

This is absolutely what I feel when i'm swinging my best and golf seems "right". It's like a meter that fills up in my head as pressure starts increasing on that lead side followed by a late 1980's toaster oven *ding* that goes off when there is enough. When I can get there consistently there is a sense at that point that no amount of arm speed is too much, you can just *go* and you'll automatically end up where you're supposed to be at impact. I remember the first time I ever felt that, and thinking later that "holy s***, this is what Nicklaus was talking about" re: his quote "it’s impossible to release the club too early". 

The way I visualize it is that lead side pressure = the potential for lead side rotation, and lead side rotation (internal rotation of the lead hip) inherently maintains a tiled spine angle, whereas the more common external trail hip rotation you see from early extenders (right hip coming forward) wants to straighten a tilted spine. When spine angle is maintained, the chain of shoulders -> torso -> arms -> wrists -> hands can just unleash as fast as you can fire them. When spine angle *isn't* maintained, trying you unleash that chain of upper body parts creates problems. You can only have that same freedom to "go" if you swing the club several feet above the ball, otherwise you'll have to redirect that chain of parts somewhere where it doesn't automatically want to go, which is several feet down to where the ball is. This creates a sense of restriction, friction, and inefficiency, and it should because that's exactly what is happening. Things have to stall/disconnect/redirect in a way that takes quite a lot of effort, but since that all happens in the blink of an eye it's being done somewhat unconsciously based on your intent, and you're just left feeling like...



The insidious part is that when you're stuck in what i'm going to now call the "Cranston F*** Pattern", every step towards where you need to actually get to feels terrible until you arrive at the other side. It's like being on the wrong side of a gorge and the bridge back looks like this:



To be able to get off your trail side and into your lead side in transition to minimize external rotation of the trail hip and maximize internal rotation of the lead is to set yourself up to fire everything hard and fast. 

[nikos74]

19 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

it’s estimated (by others) that 80-85% of recreational golfers slice.

 

maybe if people stopped rotating the torso so fast, throwing the trail shoulder out and across in the early part of the downswing, it would help.

 

unless people like slicing drives 185 yards out and curving 40 yards to the right. in that case, just keep doing it that way.

 

 

I often have the opposite problem, especially with the short irons.  My torso stalls out or falls behind my arms coming down and out in the DS and as a result I either push or shank the ball at impact.  When I focus on completing my turn and "hit through the ball" I hit the ball straight and solid.

 

I have a rotational swing: 45 degree hip turn, 90 degree shoulder turn.  Approximately.

Edited June 9, 2024 by nikos74

[Soloman1]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

To be able to get off your trail side and into your lead side in transition…

 

that’s good, but before transition is gooder.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, nikos74 said:

My torso stalls out or falls behind my arms coming down and out in the DS

Incredibly rare bordering on almost impossible if you mean from P4-5.5-ish.

 

I can do it when demonstrating hyper exaggerated stuff to a student. Had to yesterday. Path was 15 out.

 

“Pics or it didn’t happen.” 😀

[nikos74]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

Incredibly rare bordering on almost impossible if you mean from P4-5.5-ish.

 

I can do it when demonstrating hyper exaggerated stuff to a student. Had to yesterday. Path was 15 out.

 

“Pics or it didn’t happen.” 😀

I would post a video if I had a smart phone, but I still use the old fashion mobiles.  My swing thought actually works because I initially had to think about pulling my short irons to get a straighter path.  The follow through is often over-looked or downgraded, but in reality it allows and reinforces a proper PS and WS in the DS.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

I would post a video if I had a smart phone, but I still use the old fashion mobiles. My swing thought actually works

 

:sigh: so you're talking about a feel (a swing thought)?

 

My comment said that it's almost impossible (unless you're exaggerating for a drill) to see the arms get ahead of the pivot during the downswing, which is what you said:

 

2 hours ago, nikos74 said:

My torso stalls out or falls behind my arms coming down and out in the DS

[GoGoErky]

11 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

I would post a video if I had a smart phone, but I still use the old fashion mobiles.  My swing thought actually works because I initially had to think about pulling my short irons to get a straighter path.  The follow through is often over-looked or downgraded, but in reality it allows and reinforces a proper PS and WS in the DS.

If you don’t have video how do you know what’s happening in your swing?

 

 

[nikos74]

2 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

If you don’t have video how do you know what’s happening in your swing?

 

 

Trial and error. I had a very weak follow through and when I fixed it a lot of problems got sorted out.  I was throwing the club at the ball and not back in after impact.  Hence it was a rotation problem.

Edited June 9, 2024 by nikos74

[GoGoErky]

1 minute ago, nikos74 said:

Trial and error. I always had a weak follow through and when I fixed it a lot of problems got sorted out.

So you just have feelings and no evidence of what you are feeling is actually happening. Feel isn’t real

[iacas]

20 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

Trial and error. I always had a weak follow through and when I fixed it a lot of problems got sorted out.

 

Oh boy.

[Zeph]

I understand how a lot of golf swing related stuff could be more confusing before the age of publicly available cameras, but we're in 2024. You don't have to guess what your swing looks like anymore. If you don't have a digital camera, ask a friend to borrow a phone or something. Or don't, but then you can't make claims about what your swing looks like based on what you feel. Without video you don't even know precisely what or how much you changed it to fix something, no matter what you felt.

[Soloman1]

hogan only had five lessons.

 

deepak chopra’s got seven.

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

Another thread that's descended into farce. 

[TheDeanAbides]

7 hours ago, Jugs said:

  

Not meaningless if surrounded by proper context, a good grip, comfortable stance, no tension, a guiding hand, a little trust, then letting it go.  Will there be tweaks required, sure, but it's a relatively easy climb.   Jackie at his best, one minute and 23 seconds of a lifetime.   

 

 

Everything Jackie says is entirely dependent on the body moving correctly - something that he has long taken for granted. That's why I said what I said. 

[nikos74]

On 6/9/2024 at 4:51 PM, Zeph said:

I understand how a lot of golf swing related stuff could be more confusing before the age of publicly available cameras, but we're in 2024. You don't have to guess what your swing looks like anymore. If you don't have a digital camera, ask a friend to borrow a phone or something. Or don't, but then you can't make claims about what your swing looks like based on what you feel. Without video you don't even know precisely what or how much you changed it to fix something, no matter what you felt.

If I didn't feel confident about what I experienced I wouldn't mention it and describe it.  I would start a thread, post a video and ask for advice or I would go to a nearby teaching pro that could help me.  In other words at worst I make educated guesses, not wild guesses.  I also refrain from helping people if there is even a small chance I will confuse them and/or make them worse.

 

So while I understand what you are saying, I believe I have a solid grasp of the fundamentals(setup and swing plane) and that allows me to experiment, probably at an intermediate level.  Some people are a bit hyperbolic and immature in their responses, not you though.

[slytown]

Congrats. You combed through the bs online and found out that you have to release the club early in the downswing. Anyone that teaches ams to hold lag needs to be questioned or ignored.

[MonteScheinblum]

6 hours ago, nikos74 said:

If I didn't feel confident about what I experienced I wouldn't mention it and describe it.  I would start a thread, post a video and ask for advice or I would go to a nearby teaching pro that could help me.  In other words at worst I make educated guesses, not wild guesses.  I also refrain from helping people if there is even a small chance I will confuse them and/or make them worse.

 

So while I understand what you are saying, I believe I have a solid grasp of the fundamentals(setup and swing plane) and that allows me to experiment, probably at an intermediate level.  Some people are a bit hyperbolic and immature in their responses, not you though.

This is the problem.  I was very polite in telling you earlier in the thread that there is a near 100% chance you will make people worse if you try and help them.  You have an extremely weak and antiquated grasp of “fundamentals” and people telling you this is not immature, it’s a matter of fact.  You seem like an otherwise reasonable individual, but you shouldn’t be doling out advice to anyone based on intangible ideas you discovered on your own that are objectively incorrect.  The things you said are in fact wild guesses.   

[nikos74]

1 hour ago, MonteScheinblum said:

This is the problem.  I was very polite in telling you earlier in the thread that there is a near 100% chance you will make people worse if you try and help them.  You have an extremely weak and antiquated grasp of “fundamentals” and people telling you this is not immature, it’s a matter of fact.  You seem like an otherwise reasonable individual, but you shouldn’t be doling out advice to anyone based on intangible ideas you discovered on your own that are objectively incorrect.  The things you said are in fact wild guesses.   

55% can break 100

25% can break 90

5% can break 80

1% can break 70

 

And here is the thing....I am NOT the one teaching them!

 

Golf has been played for several hundred years in scotland and ireland and they didn't have computers back then to analyze anything.  I doubt they even had full time instructors, as most people had other full-time occupations.  And the people who played golf were probably better athletes with not 50 different swing thoughts in their mind. They were shown once or twice and they learned, if even that.    Much like you don't think about plowing your garden with a hoe.

 

No need to write 2 or 3 paragraphs to tell me I su@k. 1 or 2 sentences suffice.  Call me a 54 handicapper. No skin off my back cause I don't care.  I will stay on this site to pass my time as much as I like.

 

"Is this device good for anything other than warding off vampires?

…….NO!!!"

 

I learned with it and it is a great tool.

Edited June 14, 2024 by nikos74

[ferrispgm]

18 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

55% can break 100

25% can break 90

5% can break 80

1% can break 70

 

And here is the thing....I am NOT the one teaching them!

 

Golf has been played for several hundred years in scotland and ireland and they didn't have computers back then to analyze anything.  I doubt they even had full time instructors, as most people had other full-time occupations.  And the people who played golf were probably better athletes with not 50 different swing thoughts in their mind. They were shown once or twice and they learned, if even that.    Much like you don't think about plowing your garden with a hoe.

 

No need to write 2 or 3 paragraphs to tell me I su@k. 1 or 2 sentences suffice.  Call me a 52 handicapper. No skin off my back cause I don't care.  I will stay on this site to pass my time as much as I like.

Here's the thing......Unless you dedicate hours upon hours to studying the golf swing and giving lessons to golfers of various skill levels to see what works and what doesn't, you aren't qualified, I don't care what your skill level is, and that includes tour players.  You said in an earlier post that you wouldn't post anything if you thought there was even a small chance it would hurt them...but you claim they are educated guess...fine...let's go that route.  Would you rather have an "educated guess" from a mechanic who has watched a couple dozen youtube videos and works on his own go kart......or would rather go to a mechanic with years of experience working on your type of car?  

 

I posted this before......but as a +3, I have a moderate and I mean moderate understanding of the swing...probably a 3-4 on a scale of 1-10.  If I go awry, I can usually get myself out of it with a bandaid fix relatively quickly.  I even post some thoughts here and there on this forum in an effort to help or at least give a different way to see things (usually when it's something I have fixed in the past)....BUT I also am not going to sit there and argue with any legitimate instructor and say I know better because I know my swing.  You should be open minded enough and accept the fact that you aren't an expert and maybe you are wrong there is no shame in that  Perhaps this article will help:  https://www.shooksvensen.com/can-you-admit-when-youre-wrong/

 

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, nikos74 said:

55% can break 100

25% can break 90

5% can break 80

1% can break 70

 

And here is the thing....I am NOT the one teaching them!

 

Golf has been played for several hundred years in scotland and ireland and they didn't have computers back then to analyze anything.  I doubt they even had full time instructors, as most people had other full-time occupations.  And the people who played golf were probably better athletes with not 50 different swing thoughts in their mind. They were shown once or twice and they learned, if even that.    Much like you don't think about plowing your garden with a hoe.

 

No need to write 2 or 3 paragraphs to tell me I su@k. 1 or 2 sentences suffice.  Call me a 54 handicapper. No skin off my back cause I don't care.  I will stay on this site to pass my time as much as I like.

 

"Is this device good for anything other than warding off vampires?

…….NO!!!"

 

I learned with it and it is a great tool.

That’s fine, but others on the site need to know you don’t know what you’re talking about and a layman doesn’t know what peak on the Dunning Kruger graph someone is.

 

There’s one sentence and if you wouldn’t have quoted me several times in multiple threads telling me what I was saying wasn't right, you wouldn’t have gotten anything from me and I would have let your ignorant opinions stand.

 

There’s your two sentences.

 

 

Sorry, needed 3.  By your thinking, humans have been around for hundred’s of thousands of years and lived without MRI, Xray, blood pressure gauges, etc…….to the ripe old age of 30.  
 

Unless you don’t take advantage of the “computers” for your health, you can file that state,met with the analyses of the swing.  Damn, 4.

 

The fact so many good players are emerging and shooting low numbers on ridiculously setup golf courses in the last 10-15 years, might be a result of better diagnostics versus antiquated cliches.

 

Shoot 5.  I guess I’m just not smart enough to to refute multiple falsities and rationalizations in 2 sentences.

 

Considering your retort was 5 paragraphs, I think I’m OK.

Edited June 14, 2024 by MonteScheinblum

[nikos74]

10 minutes ago, ferrispgm said:

Here's the thing......Unless you dedicate hours upon hours to studying the golf swing and giving lessons to golfers of various skill levels to see what works and what doesn't, you aren't qualified, I don't care what your skill level is, and that includes tour players.  You said in an earlier post that you wouldn't post anything if you thought there was even a small chance it would hurt them...but you claim they are educated guess...fine...let's go that route.  Would you rather have an "educated guess" from a mechanic who has watched a couple dozen youtube videos and works on his own go kart......or would rather go to a mechanic with years of experience working on your type of car?  

 

I posted this before......but as a +3, I have a moderate and I mean moderate understanding of the swing...probably a 3-4 on a scale of 1-10.  If I go awry, I can usually get myself out of it with a bandaid fix relatively quickly.  I even post some thoughts here and there on this forum in an effort to help or at least give a different way to see things (usually when it's something I have fixed in the past)....BUT I also am not going to sit there and argue with any legitimate instructor and say I know better because I know my swing.  You should be open minded enough and accept the fact that you aren't an expert and maybe you are wrong there is no shame in that  Perhaps this article will help:  https://www.shooksvensen.com/can-you-admit-when-youre-wrong/

 

Already said I refrain from helping people when I am not sure about something.  I get involved in maybe 1 or 2 threads per night instead of 5 or 10. If I disagree with something it's because it doesn't work for me, it feels unnatural, like a premature weight shift in the DS instead of a PS to the lead side initially.  It causes me to slide and the result is limited rotation and a poor follow through.  Or side tilting for ground shots instead of just tee shots.  Don't like too much shaft lean either.  They promote digging swings for everyone and that is probably the main reason people can't hit long irons.

 

It has nothing to do with narcissism.  I admit when I am wrong.  But the burden of proof lies on the person making claims(the instructor) not on the student having to accept everything at face value. Hogan, Nicklaus, Tiger all had different swings with some "faults" but they all excelled.

[MonteScheinblum]

This forum is one of the most academically educated places on the swing there is.  Here’s what happens.  People who are revered in their small circle of knowing what they’re talking about show up here and try to throw their knowledge around.

 

It turns into the same thing that happens when someone who their friends and family think are funny, go to a comedy club, do a stand up and go boo’d off the stage.  
 

Their first reaction is that crowd was a bunch of a-holes.

 

On further review, they’re family and friends funny, but not strangers funny.

 

People come here and get boo’d off the stage and they get butt hurt.  Been there more times than I can count.  The proper course of action is not to lash out at everyone who says you don’t know what you’re talking about, it’s to learn from people who know more than you.

 

 

The first year I was here, Dan ripped me a new one seemed like every day.  My first reaction was I’d like to kick his @$$, but it dawned on me quickly he knew a lot more than I did on the academic side despite my practical experience.

 

Edited June 14, 2024 by MonteScheinblum

[ferrispgm]

28 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

Already said I refrain from helping people when I am not sure about something.  I get involved in maybe 1 or 2 threads per night instead of 5 or 10. If I disagree with something it's because it doesn't work for me, it feels unnatural, like a premature weight shift in the DS instead of a PS to the lead side initially.  It causes me to slide and the result is limited rotation and a poor follow through.  Or side tilting for ground shots instead of just tee shots.  Don't like too much shaft lean either.  They promote digging swings for everyone and that is probably the main reason people can't hit long irons.

 

It has nothing to do with narcissism.  I admit when I am wrong.  But the burden of proof lies on the person making claims(the instructor) not on the student having to accept everything at face value. Hogan, Nicklaus, Tiger all had different swings with some "faults" but they all excelled.

Ooooohhhh ok.....So you are equating any of your swing faults to that of some of the all time greats??? Tell me...Do you practice for 8+ hours a day?  Were you breaking par at a young age? Do you have the ability to swing it over 120mph from Rahm's backswing length, or have DJ's flexibility to get your hips and chest open and that level of sidebend to square the face from an insanely closed position at the top?  I'm guessing no.  

 

What doesn't work for you in a couple sessions doesn't mean it doesn't work.  I can't name 1 swing change that didn't feel unnatural.  Whether it's a small setup change in putting, pressure shifting left halfway into the backswing, starting my arms down sooner, etc.  BUT.....after 10 or 12 months my swing got better and my scores dropped as a result.  If anyone only did what felt natural they wouldn't get better.  Do you think it felt natural for Tiger to feel like his arms beat his belt buckle to the ball from the top??? No...he even said he hated that drill but it made him better.  

 

And if you want proof......I have been getting 1 lesson a year from Monte for the last 6 years or so...I have worked on what he often speaks about on here.  As a result, my handicap went from a rollercoaster 5 to what's now a +3.5.  The difference was sticking with it and not being bone-headed thinking I know my swing better.  

[GoGoErky]

50 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

Already said I refrain from helping people when I am not sure about something.  I get involved in maybe 1 or 2 threads per night instead of 5 or 10. If I disagree with something it's because it doesn't work for me, it feels unnatural, like a premature weight shift in the DS instead of a PS to the lead side initially.  It causes me to slide and the result is limited rotation and a poor follow through.  Or side tilting for ground shots instead of just tee shots.  Don't like too much shaft lean either.  They promote digging swings for everyone and that is probably the main reason people can't hit long irons.

 

It has nothing to do with narcissism.  I admit when I am wrong.  But the burden of proof lies on the person making claims(the instructor) not on the student having to accept everything at face value. Hogan, Nicklaus, Tiger all had different swings with some "faults" but they all excelled.

You don’t have any video of your swing so what you are feeling is probably not what’s happening so saying this or that doesn’t work for you is not something you can say you are actually doing or not doing, or if you are doing it correctly.

 

It all ideas and as has been pointed out they are all outdated and have been disproven by actual measurements.

 

You can think it’s ok to give advice based on what you think but it isn’t helping anyone. That’s what people are trying to tell you. Your advice is bad advice.  
 

what the actual experts are doing is pointing out the errors so that when someone comes on the site to read they have the proper info

Edited June 14, 2024 by GoGoErky

[iacas]

1 hour ago, nikos74 said:

It has nothing to do with narcissism.  I admit when I am wrong.  But the burden of proof lies on the person making claims(the instructor) not on the student having to accept everything at face value. Hogan, Nicklaus, Tiger all had different swings with some "faults" but they all excelled.

 

The burden of proof lies with you, because you don't even record your swing on video (let alone on GEARS or a pressure mat or whatever), so you really have no idea what you're actually doing and whether something would "work" for you or not.

 

And, what's your index? What "works" for someone to play 4 handicap golf is often far and away different than what someone needs to "work" to get from a +3 to a +4.

 

13 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

You don’t have any video of your swing so what you are feeling is probably not what’s happening so saying this or that doesn’t work for you is not something you can say you are actually doing or not doing, or if you are doing it correctly.

 

👍🏼

[Shilgy]

39 minutes ago, ferrispgm said:

Ooooohhhh ok.....So you are equating any of your swing faults to that of some of the all time greats??? Tell me...Do you practice for 8+ hours a day?  Were you breaking par at a young age? Do you have the ability to swing it over 120mph from Rahm's backswing length, or have DJ's flexibility to get your hips and chest open and that level of sidebend to square the face from an insanely closed position at the top?  I'm guessing no.  

 

What doesn't work for you in a couple sessions doesn't mean it doesn't work.  I can't name 1 swing change that didn't feel unnatural.  Whether it's a small setup change in putting, pressure shifting left halfway into the backswing, starting my arms down sooner, etc.  BUT.....after 10 or 12 months my swing got better and my scores dropped as a result.  If anyone only did what felt natural they wouldn't get better.  Do you think it felt natural for Tiger to feel like his arms beat his belt buckle to the ball from the top??? No...he even said he hated that drill but it made him better.  

 

And if you want proof......I have been getting 1 lesson a year from Monte for the last 6 years or so...I have worked on what he often speaks about on here.  As a result, my handicap went from a rollercoaster 5 to what's now a +3.5.  The difference was sticking with it and not being bone-headed thinking I know my swing better.  

Exactly…..if it doesn’t feel unnatural are you even really making a change?  What you are already doing is what feels natural.  Even though it’s wrong.

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, ferrispgm said:

What doesn't work for you in a couple sessions doesn't mean it doesn't work.  I can't name 1 swing change that didn't feel unnatural. 

And to expand on this, i've worked with just enough people to know how wildly this can vary in ways I *never* would have seen or understood if I just worked on my own swing and pulled from that sample size of 1.

Facing a student that does everything the opposite of what you personally relate to is an eye-opener, and it very quickly starts invalidating many of the absolutes you may have held previously. Then you'll get someone that is the opposite of THAT that is still somehow *still* the opposite of you and suddenly it's like being exposed to a spectrum of colors you didn't even know existed before. Suddenly you're faced with the reality that a big chunk of what you believed were absolutes about the golf swing based on analyzing yourself are not absolutes at all, but conditional based on the player in a "what's good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander" kind of way. 

I think the pushback you're getting @nikos74 is because you seem to be speaking like you aren't aware of the above, or not as aware as you should be, which is kinda crucial when dispensing advice to strangers on the internet. For guys like Monte this was probably lesson #1 in week #1 of being a professional teacher working with the general public which was well over a decade ago now. When someone sounds like they're speaking from inside a box that is one of the first ones you had to break out of, and they speak as though they aren't even aware of the box at all, that's where this kind of criticism comes from. You're saying many things that fit this criteria, things that sound kinda like they make sense on paper but would have pretty quickly failed the quality control test of applying them to other people.

You don't change to having "very light grip pressure" when swinging lighter graphite shafted clubs to "maintain feel of the club", that is a silly generalization at best and mostly incorrect at worst. The nuanced version of that statement would be something like "a player with excess tension in their grip might be somewhat alleviated by using lighter overall clubs that they don't feel they have to strangle to keep control of, but the root of where that tension comes from needs to be examined as it could be one of a dozen different things". The hammer/pencil analogy you made is the same....an idea that sounds good in your head but wouldn't have held up to any kind of practical application. 

Ideas that we dream up to explain things we've intuitively figured out *for ourselves* are for internal use only basically. Take those ideas and attempt to apply them to a dozen different students and the mish mash of results that you get will refine those ideas into something suitable for general public consumption. 

[NoTalentLefty]

I like pie.

[Dewdman42]

Getting back to the original question about holding lag....  I have been going through Clay Ballard's speed enhancement video series recently.  There are a few different technical choices he points out for creating more CHS through technique, one of which is related to lag.   I did manage in one session to add 7mph CHS to my driver just trying a few of these things, including "proper" lag.  So let me comment on what I have learned and what I am trying to do.  Some of you gurus may correct or enhance anything I might say I will take no offense...

 

I have apparently been doing one thing wrong for a long time which is setting my RH wrist into extension too early and fully in the backswing.  I think I got in the habit of doing this as a way to prevent myself from getting too cupped at the top with my LH.  If i don't set it early, then I think right at transition I have a fairly strong tendency to at the last instant hinge at the top and the LH falls into a cupped position, which ends up badly later.  By extending my RH earlier and in the right way I have managed to maintain a much flatter LH all the way to the top and at transition.

 

However, that approach has  negative consequences, more then one, but one thing is that at transition my already-pre-extended RH wrist, then basically wants to release that tension immediately upon starting the downswing.  THis has to do with our muscles, we extend and the muscle wants to release that extension.  So that causes a strong trigger to cast the club...regardless of whether I hide this fact with aggressive shallowing and dropping the hands, etc...the extended and hinged hands will release the lag too soon and definitely contribute at least some amount of over the plane casting.

 

Then you can try to "hold" that lag, to avoid the casting, but I have found that to be a fools errand.  "holding" it is not the way.

 

So the emphasis now is being careful not to extend my RH all the way or ulnar deviate the LH into full hinge until later during the transition.  My hands will already be moving down even as I establish the full extension of RH and hinging of LH into the lag I am going to have.  Yes, I am at risk of becoming LH cupped if I am not careful, I am working on that.  But anyway, when I do it this way, I end up with considerably more lag being apparent on camera all the way until P6.  I'm not having to actually "hold" anything.  The hands go all the way down to P6 without feeling that RH extension because of the direction they are going the club will just hang out back there, no need to "hold" anything...

 

This has to be combined with also doing certain things around P6 to cause the club to release like a whip out of that lag.  some here have talked about the hands slowing down, but I am not consciously thinking about slowing them down, they probably are, but what I am thinking about is changing the direction they are moving from down, to up.  Time that just right the clubhead will whip out of lag all on its own.  

 

Yes in one session I added 7mph to my driver CHS and roughly 20 yards.  Still working on it.  I do have a much looser sense of disconnectedness in my hands compared to before...for now I have less sense of where the club face is exactly.  Hard to tell if my wrist is cupped or bowed or what because it basically feels looser.  The entire feeling going into transition, into the downswing and then finally whipping the club through P6-P7 is much looser feeling and less connected in a way, but on camera I can see the lag is more, I can see that it's staying in lag longer and my CHS has gone up.  My swings feel more effortless yet with more speed.  

 

I think lag is incredibly important.  I think "holding" lag is not the right way to maintain lag longer in the downswing.  It's more about timing how and when to "set" the lag at the top, in a way that it won't bounce out of lag too early with casting...and this creates even more need to have more aggressive things happening around P6 to slingshot the clubhead out to the ball, but in the end that IS actually maintaining lag longer....but its not "holding" it.

 

Edited June 22, 2024 by Dewdman42