Grip pressure vs swing speed?

[Pepperturbo]

2 minutes ago, Socrates said:

I think the key thing to take from this discussion is that the stronger your hands (grip strength) and the better your grip, the less effort you perceive is needed to maintain control and generate speed during the swing.  You might not feel you are using more strength through impact, but you likely are.  You're just not aware of it because of your good fundamentals and you are using a smaller percentage of your total strength than a not so good amateur.

You're probably right. 

 

I am still physically strong, and use a hand/forearm grip strengthener while plopped in front of the TV.  I've never analyzed stuff like that though; it's more my impression. 

[KMeloney]

The question was about a correlation between grip pressure and [swing] speed, not whether anyone should/does maintain constant pressure throughout the swing.

[nvr3putt]

Hitting a fat shot with a 10/10 grip pressure at 90+ mph will likely cause bleeding somewhere.

[Socrates]

On 6/10/2024 at 1:52 PM, KMeloney said:

 

What's the correlation you have in mind? Lighter=faster, or the inverse?

 

I suspect that it's more a matter of WRIST/arm "looseness," and that too much grip pressure can cause tension in the wrist/arms, and thereby limit your swing speed potential. If lighter grip pressure promotes less tension, then I suspect you can probably swing faster.

 

21 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

The question was about a correlation between grip pressure and [swing] speed, not whether anyone should/does maintain constant pressure throughout the swing.

You are drawing the wrong conclusion about grip strength.  If you have a lot of grip strength and a good grip, you can grip the club tightly with very little tension.  To achieve higher speeds, you need to be able to hold on with a lot of grip pressure but not be tense.  That is why Tour players and LD people have high strength numbers and relative to amateurs, they use a smaller percentage of their grip strength to grip the club during the swing.  As several have said, you cannot swing fast with a light/loose grip as you need to have enough grip pressure to control the forces of the swing.  The video shows that the peak pressure is at transition and I'd bet that pressure is maintained through impact.  

[Socrates]

2 minutes ago, nvr3putt said:

Hitting a fat shot with a 10/10 grip pressure at 90+ mph will likely cause bleeding somewhere.

Only if your grip sucks.  

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

Disagree.

 

I mean, that's fine, but I've seen the measurements. PGA Tour players increase grip pressure slightly in transition and around impact (when the club is pulling the hardest). Average players often gripped it more loosely and thus had a higher change throughout the swing, particularly at those same two places.

 

I'm not sharing an opinion here. I'm sharing what measured data said.

 

4 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

I am NOT saying it's precisely the same from start to finish, that's humanly impossible, but it's close.  IME there is NO such thing is precise, but there is almost.

 

Maybe if you have a very broad definition of "almost." If your definition is anything under about a 5-10% change… then no, it's not really what they do.

 

4 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

What the tour players do has never worked for me, so I don't pay much attention to them, nor do I care about PGA stats.  They are as fickle as amateurs.  I know this because a few were my neighbors, and we played a lot of golf together.  Seeing them at home is different from their tour persona.

 

Oh brother. There he is.

 

4 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

Thanks for the heads-up, but I'll stick with what works for me. Thanks for the heads-up, but I'll stick with what works for me.  My grip pressure is relatively the same from start to finish...

 

Feel ain't real. If you're not measuring, you're basically just guessing.

[nikos74]

I think overall club weight and swing weight play a huge role.  If you are swinging clubs with graphite shafts or ultra-light steel shafts you need a very light grip pressure to feel the club moving as you swing.  If the clubs are on the heavy side you can grip it much stronger and should to maintain control because the mass demands it.  You don't grab a hammer the same way you grab a pencil.

[golferdude54]

I always felt after P2 that grip pressure will increase naturally coming to P3 and P4 with more lead wrist radial deviation. Not like death grip but firm. Try lightening your grip pressure on the club as you add more radial deviation, it's almost impossible to do.

[ThinkingPlus]

11 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

I think overall club weight and swing weight play a huge role.  If you are swinging clubs with graphite shafts or ultra-light steel shafts you need a very light grip pressure to feel the club moving as you swing.  If the clubs are on the heavy side you can grip it much stronger and should to maintain control because the mass demands it.  You don't grab a hammer the same way you grab a pencil.

Uhhhh, no.

[GoGoErky]

28 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Uhhhh, no.

The wrongs just keep piling up 

[GoGoErky]

40 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

I think overall club weight and swing weight play a huge role.  If you are swinging clubs with graphite shafts or ultra-light steel shafts you need a very light grip pressure to feel the club moving as you swing.  If the clubs are on the heavy side you can grip it much stronger and should to maintain control because the mass demands it.  You don't grab a hammer the same way you grab a pencil.

The material of the shaft or weight are irrelevant 

Edited June 12, 2024 by GoGoErky

[nikos74]

3 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

The material of the shaft or weight are irrelevant 

If you can't feel the club in your hands as you swing it around your body, then you basically have no control of swing path and clubface direction.  It is like swinging blind.  Anyone ,but a beginner, knows it.  Then you need enough strength to control it, especially from the deep rough.

[GoGoErky]

3 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

If you can't feel the club in your hands as you swing it around your body, then you basically have no control of swing path and clubface direction.  It is like swinging blind.  Anyone ,but a beginner, knows it.  Then you need enough strength to control it, especially from the deep rough.

Grip pressures is the same regardless of the shaft material or shaft weight.

 

 

[nikos74]

44 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

The wrongs just keep piling up 

Why not join the PGA tour?

 

You seem to know everything and have a perfect swing.

 

Or maybe you just like annoying people.  There isn't a single thing you don't disagree on.  Not normal behavior!

Edited June 12, 2024 by nikos74

[Soloman1]

why guess when you can measure?

 

@iacas has described the results of measurements. everyone is a little different, but patterns of elite players are packed more tightly.

 

i would say most people prefer mri’s, blood tests and x-rays, etc. i suppose there are others who prefer their doctor guess without any data or measurements.

[SNIPERBBB]

1 hour ago, nikos74 said:

I think overall club weight and swing weight play a huge role.  If you are swinging clubs with graphite shafts or ultra-light steel shafts you need a very light grip pressure to feel the club moving as you swing.  If the clubs are on the heavy side you can grip it much stronger and should to maintain control because the mass demands it.  You don't grab a hammer the same way you grab a pencil.

Just get heavier clubs. If you have to try to feel an ultralight club, you probably aren't more that 5 years old.

[MonteScheinblum]

There are still people (and a lot) who think the ball starts in the direction of the path and curves to where the face was pointed as address.  They get mad and call people stupid who say the ball mostly starts where the face is pointed at impact and say, “Nicklaus and Palmer did fine aiming where they wanted the ball to start and aimed the club where they wanted it to finish.”

 

Completely missing the point that the old ball flight ideas were fine for a Tour player who figured stuff out through trial and error, but are awful ideas for the guy who thought pull hooks were over the top.

 

Being disagreed with is part of a good debate.

 

Those that see they are on the wrong side of the debate learn, those steadfast in old beliefs have no chance to learn.  
 

When I came to this forum 15 years ago I had my beliefs.  I was a former world long drive champion and played and succeeded at the highest levels.  If anyone would be steadfast in their position it would be me.  
 

I quickly learned I didn’t know $h!t.  Instead of holding my position, I aspired to learn things.  
 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, nikos74 said:

I think overall club weight and swing weight play a huge role.  If you are swinging clubs with graphite shafts or ultra-light steel shafts you need a very light grip pressure to feel the club moving as you swing.  If the clubs are on the heavy side you can grip it much stronger and should to maintain control because the mass demands it.  You don't grab a hammer the same way you grab a pencil.

 

Others have mentioned it already, so I won't talk about that, but also… you can swing a lighter club a bit faster, and the speed is a squared factor in this type of stuff… so lighter but swung faster can equal the same or more force required. It's not a single variable system.

 

31 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

why guess when you can measure?

 

@iacas has described the results of measurements. everyone is a little different, but patterns of elite players are packed more tightly.

 

Yeah, and let me correct myself a bit: most of the graphs look a bit more like this, with the peaks occurring in transition and just before impact (and a smaller one just after).

Basically, you grip the club a bit tighter ~P4, ~P6, and ~P8.

 

 

1 is late backswing, 2 is the top, 3 is early downswing, 4 is P6, 5 is impact, 6 is just after P8. Pretty consistent amongst all the measurements and papers I just looked at (sorry, @Pepperturbo, time to review your definition of "almost").

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, nikos74 said:

Why not join the PGA tour?

 

You seem to know everything and have a perfect swing.

 

Or maybe you just like annoying people.  There isn't a single thing you don't disagree on.  Not normal behavior!

I don’t know everything but I know enough that what you have posted in this section of the forum isn’t correct and has data to backup what’s correct.

 

Others have noted the errors in your statements as well. The experts who know the most have shown the errors and that the thought process are outdated and debunked

[phizzy30]

7 hours ago, nvr3putt said:

Hitting a fat shot with a 10/10 grip pressure at 90+ mph will likely cause bleeding somewhere.

More like a hernia. 

[Valtiel]

3 hours ago, nikos74 said:

You don't grab a hammer the same way you grab a pencil.

Because the intent is completely different, which it isn't with a golf club. I would certainly grip a pencil and a hammer the same if I was trying to hammer a nail with both of them, and i'd only grip the hammer slightly more to deal with it's increased mass if I was trying to write with it. Plus golf clubs *within the set* weigh very different amounts and you aren't gripping your PW harder than you are your driver just because it's heavier. 

Edited June 12, 2024 by Valtiel

[Nels55]

25 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Because the intent is completely different, which it isn't with a golf club. I would certainly grip a pencil and a hammer the same if I was trying to hammer a nail with both of them, and i'd only grip the hammer slightly more to deal with it's increased mass if I was trying to write with it. Plus golf clubs *within the set* weigh very different amounts and you aren't gripping your PW harder than you are your driver just because it's heavier. 

It would be easier to write a letter in the sand with a hammer than it would be to hammer a nail with a pencil.  Trying to hammer a nail with a pencil would require a rather tight grip...

[Nickb333]

I’ve enjoyed reading most of this thread. And now have a couple questions. 
 

background
 

I played racquetball at a very high level when I was 19-23 yrs old. People used to comment that my racquet looked like it was going to fall out of my hand. I could hit a forehand over 130mph and a backhand over 125. (Back in the 80’s before racquetball rackets became the size of tennis rackets. Think persimmon drivers before Big Bertha) 
 

My forehand grip really involved my middle two fingers only. And my backhand grip added only my thumb. 
 

I guarantee my grip pressure increased as I made contact with the ball. But up to that point, I’m 100% sure the baby bird was just fine and dandy. 
 

Why would gripping down hard at address, through the backswing, and at the beginning of the downswing help you with club head speed? This concept flies in the face of everything I learned playing tournament racquetball. 
 

When you squeeze your grip on anything, don’t you restrict the free flow of movement in your forearms? 

[Soloman1]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

Basically, you grip the club a bit tighter ~P4, ~P6, and ~P8.

 

 

1 is late backswing, 2 is the top, 3 is early downswing, 4 is P6, 5 is impact, 6 is just after P8. Pretty consistent amongst all the measurements and papers I just looked at (sorry, @Pepperturbo, time to review your definition of "almost").

 

something doesn't look right to me with this graph. i believe it could be grip force of amateurs or women pros. might want to check it?

 

maximum force for pros tops out about 580 N, which is near max for all men 30-39 years old.

about half of that force is max for amateurs and women pros.

 

which leads to this (sigh, again) - the old feel is not real.

 

1. men pros feel they are gripping lightly because their max potential force is about double the amateur force potential.

 

like 100lbs feels like a feather to an olympic weightlifter, but a bit of a struggle to an out of shape golfing accountant.

 

2. an amateur gripping their maximum force would only get them half way to the force by a male pro.

--------

 

that should help visualize the difference in amateur anecdotal feel and real forces of male pros.

 

losing grip strength is an important reason why we lose distance as we age.

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2024 by Soloman1

[KD1]

18 hours ago, Jugs said:

 

 

 

If John can do it I must be able to do it too.

 

What do you guys think of my new grip at address?

 

[Soloman1]

13 minutes ago, Nickb333 said:

I’ve enjoyed reading most of this thread. And now have a couple questions. 
 

background
 

I played racquetball at a very high level when I was 19-23 yrs old. People used to comment that my racquet looked like it was going to fall out of my hand. I could hit a forehand over 130mph and a backhand over 125. (Back in the 80’s before racquetball rackets became the size of tennis rackets. Think persimmon drivers before Big Bertha) 
 

My forehand grip really involved my middle two fingers only. And my backhand grip added only my thumb. 
 

I guarantee my grip pressure increased as I made contact with the ball. But up to that point, I’m 100% sure the baby bird was just fine and dandy. 
 

Why would gripping down hard at address, through the backswing, and at the beginning of the downswing help you with club head speed? This concept flies in the face of everything I learned playing tournament racquetball. 
 

When you squeeze your grip on anything, don’t you restrict the free flow of movement in your forearms? 

 

that’s ball speed. top players are closer to 180-190 mph ball speed. so, you weren’t near a pro player any more than a pro golfer for an amateur.

 

it’s not about gripping tightly at address, it’s about having less time available to time a grip change from light to hard at impact with a long moment arm of a golf club making the club feel heavy and requiring a strong centripetal countering force.

 

the downswing is a blink of an eye - 0.2 second. and much force is used at transition also, especially with heavier shafts used by pros.

 

apples and androids. 🙂

 

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, Soloman1 said:

it’s not about gripping tightly at address, it’s about having less time available to time a grip change from light to hard

That. 

@MonteScheinblum touched on it earlier, but that whole "hold the club like a baby bird" is a classic example of two flavors of bull**** at once, one golf specific and one generally life specific. 

The golf specific flavor being great players saying confusing s*** that hasn't held up with time that was just based on their subjective interpretation; see also Lee Trevino's quotes about "compressing the ball into the ground". 

The second flavor is the persistent and obnoxious tendency to take a quote with deeper or more nuanced meanings and stripping away half of it to make a simpler, often opposite meaning. See;

- Jack of all trades, master of none
- Pull yourself up by your bootstraps
- The early bird gets the worm
- Curiosity killed the cat
- Blood is thicker than water

All of those quotes have been corrupted and flipped to mean or imply the opposite of the original and often much wiser and more nuanced versions. It's usually the charlatans that do this btw, and as a result i've become somewhat annoyingly (according to my partner) distrustful of anyone using these or versions of them when trying to add weight to a point or argument. They always appear in complex discussions via someone trying to look smart.  

[Trippels]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

That. 

@MonteScheinblum touched on it earlier, but that whole "hold the club like a baby bird" is a classic example of two flavors of bull**** at once, one golf specific and one generally life specific. 

The golf specific flavor being great players saying confusing s*** that hasn't held up with time that was just based on their subjective interpretation; see also Lee Trevino's quotes about "compressing the ball into the ground". 

The second flavor is the persistent and obnoxious tendency to take a quote with deeper or more nuanced meanings and stripping away half of it to make a simpler, often opposite meaning. See;

- Jack of all trades, master of none
- Pull yourself up by your bootstraps
- The early bird gets the worm
- Curiosity killed the cat
- Blood is thicker than water

All of those quotes have been corrupted and flipped to mean or imply the opposite of the original and often much wiser and more nuanced versions. It's usually the charlatans that do this btw, and as a result i've become somewhat annoyingly (according to my partner) distrustful of anyone using these or versions of them when trying to add weight to a point or argument. They always appear in complex discussions via someone trying to look smart.  

Fool me once, shame on you. But teach a man to fool me and I'll be fooled for the rest of my life.

 

[SNIPERBBB]

2 hours ago, Valtiel said:

That. 

@MonteScheinblum touched on it earlier, but that whole "hold the club like a baby bird" is a classic example of two flavors of bull**** at once, one golf specific and one generally life specific. 

The golf specific flavor being great players saying confusing s*** that hasn't held up with time that was just based on their subjective interpretation; see also Lee Trevino's quotes about "compressing the ball into the ground". 

The second flavor is the persistent and obnoxious tendency to take a quote with deeper or more nuanced meanings and stripping away half of it to make a simpler, often opposite meaning. See;

- Jack of all trades, master of none
- Pull yourself up by your bootstraps
- The early bird gets the worm
- Curiosity killed the cat
- Blood is thicker than water

All of those quotes have been corrupted and flipped to mean or imply the opposite of the original and often much wiser and more nuanced versions. It's usually the charlatans that do this btw, and as a result i've become somewhat annoyingly (according to my partner) distrustful of anyone using these or versions of them when trying to add weight to a point or argument. They always appear in complex discussions via someone trying to look smart.  

Curiosity killed the cat still works 😛

 

There's just only two proper ways to skin one.

[SNIPERBBB]

9 minutes ago, Jugs said:

Oh my, another outlier.  

 

 

 

 

 

If all you're looking at is the trail thumb there, its hardly an outlier.  Even with a 10 finger death grip you barely get any pressure on the grip with the trail thumb.