Grip pressure vs swing speed?

[iacas]

7 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

something doesn't look right to me with this graph. i believe it could be grip force of amateurs or women pros. might want to check it?

 

maximum force for pros tops out about 580 N, which is near max for all men 30-39 years old.

about half of that force is max for amateurs and women pros.

 

Yeah, it's not a PGA Tour player. It's just somewhat representative of how grip strength isn't even "almost" the same throughout the swing: there are peaks at two or three points (the one after impact I don't care about too much, as the ball is gone by then).

 

7 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

1. men pros feel they are gripping lightly because their max potential force is about double the amateur force potential.

 

Yeah. I've written about this before, too. And also, grip strength isn't linear: if a guy can squeeze a dynamometer at 150 pounds, 100 pounds will not feel like a 6 or a 7 out of 10, it'll feel like a 3 or a 4 or something. Going from 145 to 150 feels like 9.5 to 10 or something on the scale.

 

7 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

2. an amateur gripping their maximum force would only get them half way to the force by a male pro.

 

Indeed: https://superspeedgolf.com/blogs/news/grip-strength-correlations-to-speed

[Nickb333]

7 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

 

that’s ball speed. top players are closer to 180-190 mph ball speed. so, you weren’t near a pro player any more than a pro golfer for an amateur.

 

it’s not about gripping tightly at address, it’s about having less time available to time a grip change from light to hard at impact with a long moment arm of a golf club making the club feel heavy and requiring a strong centripetal countering force.

 

the downswing is a blink of an eye - 0.2 second. and much force is used at transition also, especially with heavier shafts used by pros.

 

apples and androids. 🙂

 

Well, at the time I was hitting it 130, the top player in the world was Marty Hogan. Pretty sure he maxed at 150. 
 

Regardless, I appreciate the rest. 

[Three_Jack]

I can hit over 180 ballspeed feeling like I barely hold onto the club.

 

If i feel anything over a 4 or 5 out of 10 on tension, I generate significantly less speed and hit it more crooked. 

[CoreyW1369]

44 minutes ago, iacas said:

Indeed: https://superspeedgolf.com/blogs/news/grip-strength-correlations-to-speed

It's surprising to me that trail hand strength is lower than lead hand, when the majority across all groups would statistically be trail hand dominant. 

 

[Socrates]

7 hours ago, Nickb333 said:

I’ve enjoyed reading most of this thread. And now have a couple questions. 
 

background
 

I played racquetball at a very high level when I was 19-23 yrs old. People used to comment that my racquet looked like it was going to fall out of my hand. I could hit a forehand over 130mph and a backhand over 125. (Back in the 80’s before racquetball rackets became the size of tennis rackets. Think persimmon drivers before Big Bertha) 
 

My forehand grip really involved my middle two fingers only. And my backhand grip added only my thumb. 
 

I guarantee my grip pressure increased as I made contact with the ball. But up to that point, I’m 100% sure the baby bird was just fine and dandy. 
 

Why would gripping down hard at address, through the backswing, and at the beginning of the downswing help you with club head speed? This concept flies in the face of everything I learned playing tournament racquetball. 
 

When you squeeze your grip on anything, don’t you restrict the free flow of movement in your forearms? 

 

5 minutes ago, Three_Jack said:

I can hit over 180 ballspeed feeling like I barely hold onto the club.

 

If i feel anything over a 4 or 5 out of 10 on tension, I generate significantly less speed and hit it more crooked. 

Feel isn't real for those that have strong hands and a good grip.  I have both strong hands and a good grip.  My pressure is even on the club at address and I don't feel like I am exerting a lot of force on the club, but I'd bet that I am putting as much or more pressure on the grip than another person with a poor grip and a stranglehold on the grip. 

[nikos74]

8 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Because the intent is completely different, which it isn't with a golf club. I would certainly grip a pencil and a hammer the same if I was trying to hammer a nail with both of them, and i'd only grip the hammer slightly more to deal with it's increased mass if I was trying to write with it. Plus golf clubs *within the set* weigh very different amounts and you aren't gripping your PW harder than you are your driver just because it's heavier. 

I wasn't talking about intent.  I was talking about the difference in mass.

I know for a fact heavier objects need more force to be lifted and held than lighter objects do.

Also I think the less tension in the body(including the hands and arms) the more efficiently energy/force is transmitted to the club and ball.

[golfortennis]

On 6/10/2024 at 4:11 PM, bladehunter said:

Grip it as hard as you can  - with your hands.  Meaning don’t tense the body up.   The baby bird reference is crap.  For goodness sakes keep your grips in good shape.  They should be changed way more often than alot of people do.  I picked up a guys driver last week. And the first thought I had was “ I can’t swing this and keep it in my hands , no wonder you can’t control the face “. 

 

I heard Martin Chuck do an interview, and was talking about the grip pressure thing.  He said(paraphrase), "I once shook hands with Sam Snead, and he had one of the strongest grips I have ever felt.  There's likely a lot of people for whom his "baby bird grip" would probably break their hands."

[nikos74]

11 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Just get heavier clubs. If you have to try to feel an ultralight club, you probably aren't more that 5 years old.

Already did that.  My point was generic for why one would want a stronger or weaker grip.

 

[Glock917]

11 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Completely missing the point that the old ball flight ideas were fine for a Tour player who figured stuff out through trial and error, but are awful ideas for the guy who thought pull hooks were over the top.

 

Regards for the tangent but I always thought that "pull hooks were over the top" just did not sound right.

 

Is there a better statement for that just in general? Knowing ever case is different and all but majority of the time would it be just flipping as an example.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Three_Jack said:

I can hit over 180 ballspeed feeling like I barely hold onto the club.

 

If i feel anything over a 4 or 5 out of 10 on tension, I generate significantly less speed and hit it more crooked. 

 

#FeelAintReal. You're holding on to the club with fairly significant force or it would slide out of your hands. That, or your hands generate SuperGlue instead of sweat.

 

Just basic physics.

 

1 hour ago, nikos74 said:

I wasn't talking about intent.  I was talking about the difference in mass.

I know for a fact heavier objects need more force to be lifted and held than lighter objects do.

Also I think the less tension in the body(including the hands and arms) the more efficiently energy/force is transmitted to the club and ball.

 

You may have missed…:

 

12 hours ago, iacas said:

You can swing a lighter club a bit faster, and the speed is a squared factor in this type of stuff… so lighter but swung faster can equal the same or more force required. It's not a single variable system.

 

In other words, simply swinging a lighter club… isn't the end of it. Consider that a driver generates more "pull" than a sand wedge despite the heavier static weight of a sand wedge.

 

In general, @nikos74, when your posts get reactions like these, you might re-evaluate what you're putting out into the world:

[GungHoGolf]

26 minutes ago, Glock917 said:

 

Regards for the tangent but I always thought that "pull hooks were over the top" just did not sound right.

 

Is there a better statement for that just in general? Knowing ever case is different and all but majority of the time would it be just flipping as an example.

By definition, for a righty, a pull hook starts left of the target line then curves further left. The only requirement for the club is that its face points left of the target line at impact, and the face is also closed to the path, which could be OTT, neutral, or in-to-out.

 

For a non-OTT player, you’re correct that a flip (early and excessive release of the clubhead) is a common cause for a pull hook.

[Three_Jack]

53 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

#FeelAintReal. You're holding on to the club with fairly significant force or it would slide out of your hands. That, or your hands generate SuperGlue instead of sweat.

 

Just basic physics.

 

 

You may have missed…:

 

 

In other words, simply swinging a lighter club… isn't the end of it. Consider that a driver generates more "pull" than a sand wedge despite the heavier static weight of a sand wedge.

 

In general, @nikos74, when your posts get reactions like these, you might re-evaluate what you're putting out into the world:

 

 

Feel IS real in terms of grip pressure relative to my grip strength...

 

And this has been proven by the Speed sticks guys.

 

Pros use less RELATIVE (% of their max) grip pressure than ams, by a significant margin. This lines up with exactly what i feel.

 

If i grip it as hard as I can, I cannot produce my max swing speeds. Not even close.

 

[iacas]

Just now, Three_Jack said:

Feel IS real in terms of grip pressure relative to my grip strength...

 

And this has been proven by the Speed sticks guys.

 

Pros use less RELATIVE (% of their max) grip pressure than ams, by a significant margin. This lines up with exactly what i feel.

 

If i grip it as hard as I can, I cannot produce my max swing speeds. Not even close.

 

I'm gonna put my faith in the physics on this one.

 

And I don't doubt that if you squeeze as hard as you can, you cannot produce max swing speeds. That's not the part that garnered a reply. This was:

 

3 hours ago, Three_Jack said:

I can hit over 180 ballspeed feeling like I barely hold onto the club.

 

Real: you're not "barely" holding onto the club, unless by "barely" you mean "with just enough force so the club doesn't slip" as in "barely above the threshold required."

 

Because we know you aren't lightly holding on to the club, because that would be impossible. Unless, again, the SweatGlue.

 

3 hours ago, Three_Jack said:

If i feel anything over a 4 or 5 out of 10 on tension, I generate significantly less speed and hit it more crooked. 

 

The scale isn't really linear. Have you tested your grip strength with a dynamometer? What is your max and what is your 4 or 5?

[nikos74]

"You may have missed…:

 

  14 hours ago, iacas said:

You can swing a lighter club a bit faster, and the speed is a squared factor in this type of stuff… so lighter but swung faster can equal the same or more force required. It's not a single variable system.

 

In other words, simply swinging a lighter club… isn't the end of it. Consider that a driver generates more "pull" than a sand wedge despite the heavier static weight of a sand wedge."

 

Nowhere have I mentioned swing speed and torque.  Just grip pressure relative to swing weight.

 

"In general, @nikos74, when your posts get reactions like these, you might re-evaluate what you're putting out into the world:"

 

I try my best to be clear and honest.  Sometimes it's not good enough.

Edited June 12, 2024 by nikos74

[iacas]

24 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

I made no analogy between static weight/swing weight and clubhead speed.

 

Let me re-phrase that for you: "I didn't consider all of the factors, including clubhead speed, despite that being the dominant factor in the grip strength required to hold onto a club."

 

24 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

Excessive grip pressure is not desired because it creates tension in the body that reduces swing efficiency.

 

 

Nobody here would disagree that excessive (the definition of which basically includes "too much" or "beyond the proper amount") grip pressure is a good thing.

 

"I know for a fact heavier objects need more force to be lifted and held than lighter objects do."

 

We all know that, but in talking about a golf club, it's not the "lifting" or "holding" of the club that's important, it's the swinging of it that is.

 

Edited June 12, 2024 by iacas

[KMeloney]

19 hours ago, Socrates said:

 

You are drawing the wrong conclusion about grip strength.  If you have a lot of grip strength and a good grip, you can grip the club tightly with very little tension.  To achieve higher speeds, you need to be able to hold on with a lot of grip pressure but not be tense.  That is why Tour players and LD people have high strength numbers and relative to amateurs, they use a smaller percentage of their grip strength to grip the club during the swing.  As several have said, you cannot swing fast with a light/loose grip as you need to have enough grip pressure to control the forces of the swing.  The video shows that the peak pressure is at transition and I'd bet that pressure is maintained through impact.  

 

Where did I draw the wrong conclusion?

 

First of all, no one has said in this thread (until you did) "you cannot swing fast with a light/loose grip as you need to have enough grip pressure to control the forces of the swing." They've simply said that the whole "grip it like you're holding a bird" is BS (which I have no reason to disagree with).

 

I believe you CAN swing fast with light grip pressure, especially if that light pressure prevents the individual from otherwise being tense in the arms and elsewhere (which you also stated above). As long as the "forces of the swing" you mention encompass the force of club trying to pull out of the hands, then we're not saying anything different. Even then, to talk about grip pressure needed to keep the club in your hands seems moot, assuming your grips aren't worn and slick.

 

Let's be clear that "light" and "strong" are relative. The video points out that despite LD and Tour guys having stronger grip strength capability than others, they are only employing a fraction of that strength when swinging a club. So, you can argue that they at least lighten their grip pressure (if you don't want to say that they use a "light" grip pressure) when swinging -- and most of them are swinging fast. Maybe they grip it tighter as they swing faster -- but I am inclined to think that at some point "too much grip pressure" within one's range could hamper their swing speed if it creates tension anywhere else in their body.

 

[Double Mocha Man]

On 6/11/2024 at 5:41 AM, Jugs said:

 

Interesting. Looks like his right thumb is completely off the grip. Maybe just an outlier in one photo? 

[Pepperturbo]

20 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I mean, that's fine, but I've seen the measurements. PGA Tour players increase grip pressure slightly in transition and around impact (when the club is pulling the hardest). Average players often gripped it more loosely and thus had a higher change throughout the swing, particularly at those same two places.

 

I'm not sharing an opinion here. I'm sharing what measured data said.

 

 

Maybe if you have a very broad definition of "almost." If your definition is anything under about a 5-10% change… then no, it's not really what they do.

 

 

Oh brother. There he is.

 

 

Feel ain't real. If you're not measuring, you're basically just guessing.

We fundamentally disagree on many issues, here.  You're welcome to any opinion regarding YOU or science; your opinion regarding me and my game has no merit.  I did NOT ask you for guidance.

[Socrates]

1 hour ago, KMeloney said:

 

Where did I draw the wrong conclusion?

....

I believe you CAN swing fast with light grip pressure, especially if that light pressure prevents the individual from otherwise being tense in the arms and elsewhere (which you also stated above). As long as the "forces of the swing" you mention encompass the force of club trying to pull out of the hands, then we're not saying anything different. Even then, to talk about grip pressure needed to keep the club in your hands seems moot, assuming your grips aren't worn and slick.

....

 

And I think that is where you are wrong.  You might believe that it is light pressure, but it is likely far more than you think.  One can apply a lot of pressure without feeling tense in the arms or hands and most with good grips and hand strength aren't even aware of it.

 

You can believe what you want and you and I obviously have differing opinions.

[Soloman1]

1 hour ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

Interesting. Looks like his right thumb is completely off the grip. Maybe just an outlier in one photo? 

 

lead hand grip is the primary hand for strength.

[KMeloney]

1 hour ago, Socrates said:

And I think that is where you are wrong.  You might believe that it is light pressure, but it is likely far more than you think.  One can apply a lot of pressure without feeling tense in the arms or hands and most with good grips and hand strength aren't even aware of it.

 

You can believe what you want and you and I obviously have differing opinions.

 

I haven't said anything different than what was said in that video -- I just said it before having seen the video.

 

Go back and read what I first posted in this thread. Then go back and watch the video again, and tell me where I'm "wrong." The entire premise of the video is that if you can increase your base grip strength, then you can apply a lower percentage of that strength to the grip so that you're not creating tension and can swing faster. This is what I contended in my initial post, and YOU HAVE SAID THIS ALSO. And although there are people out there who can "apply a lot of pressure without feeling tense in the arms or hands," there are a lot of people who CAN'T. Those [without substantial baseline grip strength] who grip it too tightly such that they create tension elsewhere in their body are likely limiting their speed potential... right?!

 

You don't know what I consider to be light pressure, so to pick a bone with me over that while ignoring the context it's in is silly. Why don't you address the OP's question instead?

[GoGoErky]

14 minutes ago, Jugs said:

 

Others too, pics of Jack, think Miller too and a couple others, but a computer crash took care of those    Here's another along with someone I recently saw one day from Jacksonville.  Maybe Jack is the biggest outlier, and the disease is spreading....

 

 

 

 

and all the pressure in in the middle two fingers where it should be on the trail hand. No bad tension created that way

[Socrates]

23 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

 

I haven't said anything different than what was said in that video -- I just said it before having seen the video.

 

Go back and read what I first posted in this thread. Then go back and watch the video again, and tell me where I'm "wrong." The entire premise of the video is that if you can increase your base grip strength, then you can apply a lower percentage of that strength to the grip so that you're not creating tension and can swing faster. This is what I contended in my initial post, and YOU HAVE SAID THIS ALSO. And although there are people out there who can "apply a lot of pressure without feeling tense in the arms or hands," there are a lot of people who CAN'T. Those [without substantial baseline grip strength] who grip it too tightly such that they create tension elsewhere in their body are likely limiting their speed potential... right?!

Yes, that is correct.

 

23 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

You don't know what I consider to be light pressure, so to pick a bone with me over that while ignoring the context it's in is silly. Why don't you address the OP's question instead?

I and what others have said, is that many good players don't realize how much pressure they are applying and when.  There is a definite correlation between ability to apply pressure and speed.  More pressure (applied correctly), the greater the speed that can be achieved.

 

Many never even realize or consider the pressure they apply.  Much like when I got braces (at almost 40), I never imagined how much pressure I was putting on my jaw and teeth during the swing.  Until the orthodontist "tightened" my braces and then I hit balls.  Then I understood why some golfers and pitchers use a mouth appliance to help them swing/throw faster.  It wasn't a conscious thought until then.  Much like my hands, I never considered it until I was tested for grip strength and understood why I could hit it further than many of my peers.  I was better than them in that one area.

[Double Mocha Man]

38 minutes ago, Jugs said:

 

Others too, pics of Jack, think Miller too and a couple others, but a computer crash took care of those    Here's another along with someone I recently saw one day from Jacksonville.  Maybe Jack is the biggest outlier, and the disease is spreading....

 

 

 

 

 

Don't make me have to try that at the range...

[Double Mocha Man]

Also, with that grip this guy will never win a major, much less a regular tournament.

 

[Shilgy]

10 hours ago, Nickb333 said:

Well, at the time I was hitting it 130, the top player in the world was Marty Hogan. Pretty sure he maxed at 150. 
 

Regardless, I appreciate the rest. 

In golf terms you would be hitting 164 ball speed compared to a top pro hitting 190.  Many ams hitting 164+ ball speed.

[iacas]

5 hours ago, Pepperturbo said:

We fundamentally disagree on many issues, here.  You're welcome to any opinion regarding YOU or science; your opinion regarding me and my game has no merit.  I did NOT ask you for guidance.

 

You seem to have confused facts with opinions again, @Pepperturbo. You can't disagree with facts, or measured data, and it's highly unlikely you're a magical unicorn capable of achieving something nobody else achieves.

 

Also, I didn't give an opinion on you or your game, nor did I offer you any guidance.

 

It's a discussion forum, though, so when you say stuff that doesn't make any actual sense, you'll be called on it. If not by me, by ten or twenty others.

[Nickb333]

1 minute ago, Shilgy said:

In golf terms you would be hitting 164 ball speed compared to a top pro hitting 190.  Many ams hitting 164+ ball speed.

And I’ll bet only a low percentage of 165+ ams know before they swing where their shot is headed consistently. I actually skipped a lower division of racquetball competition because the high velocity ams there had no idea where their shots would go. It was just dangerous. 
 

 I offered the numbers for background reference only. And only as it related to having a very light grip and still producing some decent power. Which I know I did. In addition, and unlike my golf game, I knew exactly where the ball was going. I used to break the exact same string on my rackets over and over. I’m willing to bet not many high ball speed amateurs in any sport know where their shots are going consistently. Again, I did playing racquetball. 
 

BTW, my training never included anything like what’s going on today. I hit balls, played 4 hours a night, stretched and ran. Avoiding the weight room and drinking beer were intertwined with racquetball. 

 

Like all sports, not every high level player is a powerhouse. While television has certainly promoted the long ball, it’s not the end all for winning. I’m sure Scotty could hit it way farther than he does, but why would he? 
 

Anyway, I’m very appreciative of some key takeaways in this thread for me personally. 
 

Since my trail hand was and is many times stronger than my lead hand (specifically because of racquetball) I’ve been fighting a losing battle with my grip.
 

I worked on my lead hand hard since I found this thread. Results have been immediate.
 

Also Resurrecting advice from Bob Toske, again in the 80’s, keeping even pressure from both hands throughout the entire swing. For whatever reason I kept straying from that. Dumb. With a good grip, it solves so many issues. Easily adds 10% distance to my shots. 
 

Now, I have only 40 years of bad habits to arrest. 😀

 

Keep the good info coming folks! 

[johnrobison]

5 hours ago, Jugs said:

 

Others too, pics of Jack, think Miller too and a couple others, but a computer crash took care of those    Here's another along with someone I recently saw one day from Jacksonville.  Maybe Jack is the biggest outlier, and the disease is spreading....

 

 

 

 

Outliers? The photos you keep posting show nothing about grip pressure.

[phizzy30]

2 hours ago, Nickb333 said:

And I’ll bet only a low percentage of 165+ ams know before they swing where their shot is headed consistently. I actually skipped a lower division of racquetball competition because the high velocity ams there had no idea where their shots would go. It was just dangerous. 
 

 I offered the numbers for background reference only. And only as it related to having a very light grip and still producing some decent power. Which I know I did. In addition, and unlike my golf game, I knew exactly where the ball was going. I used to break the exact same string on my rackets over and over. I’m willing to bet not many high ball speed amateurs in any sport know where their shots are going consistently. Again, I did playing racquetball. 
 

BTW, my training never included anything like what’s going on today. I hit balls, played 4 hours a night, stretched and ran. Avoiding the weight room and drinking beer were intertwined with racquetball. 

 

Like all sports, not every high level player is a powerhouse. While television has certainly promoted the long ball, it’s not the end all for winning. I’m sure Scotty could hit it way farther than he does, but why would he? 
 

Anyway, I’m very appreciative of some key takeaways in this thread for me personally. 
 

Since my trail hand was and is many times stronger than my lead hand (specifically because of racquetball) I’ve been fighting a losing battle with my grip.
 

I worked on my lead hand hard since I found this thread. Results have been immediate.
 

Also Resurrecting advice from Bob Toske, again in the 80’s, keeping even pressure from both hands throughout the entire swing. For whatever reason I kept straying from that. Dumb. With a good grip, it solves so many issues. Easily adds 10% distance to my shots. 
 

Now, I have only 40 years of bad habits to arrest. 😀

 

Keep the good info coming folks! 

I've seen Scottie hit 183 ball speed.  Pretty sure he has more in the tank.  I remember hearing Brandel recently saying that Scottie can easily jack up his ball speed however, chooses to play a spinny cut at a lower ball speed in order to find more fairways.  He's number one in fairway proximity swinging almost 119 mph.  Si Woo and Collin are 2 and 3 respectively and they swing 5 mph slower. 

Edited June 13, 2024 by phizzy30