Grip pressure vs swing speed?

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, Chunkitgood said:

Based on this sort of thing one has to conclude that golf teaching, as an enterprise, has a fairly high failure rate.  Possibly it would be higher if the people being taught were of a superior species to humanity, but they aren’

Again with the ranting nonsense that has no data to support it.

 

You claimed this before and were

shown to be wrong. 
 

everything else is jibberish

[ThinkingPlus]

Just now, GoGoErky said:

Again with the ranting nonsense that has no data to support it.

 

You claimed this before and were

shown to be wrong. 
 

everything else is jibberish

Maybe it makes sense in trollish.

[Shilgy]

34 minutes ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Maybe it makes sense in trollish.

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Maybe it makes sense in trollish.

That might be debatable 😂

[Shilgy]

4 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

That might be debatable 😂

“Might”? 🤣🤣🤣

[GoGoErky]

21 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

“Might”? 🤣🤣🤣

There’s a .00001% chance 😂

[ShortGolfer]

Last year  didn't do much with driver and focused on short game and wedges.

I discovered that when I finally went back to driver, I wasn't gripping the club hard enough!

All that short game work made my grip insufficient for driver.

 

I've been working on roses for the past few months to win Rose Show trophies. I was quite successful this year!

I practiced driver hitting foam balls across the yard.

All that driver practice had little effect on my irons and wedges. 

There was a minor alignment problem that I easily fixed while playing golf while waiting for the Rose Show Judges to do their thing.

Edited June 20, 2024 by ShortGolfer

[Valtiel]

3 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

But I digress....

Gee ya THINK? 😂

There might be a couple good points about intentionality and how the hands work in there if you hadn't right clicked the entire post and run a thesaurus "find and replace" function to sporadically engender an enterprise of disparate intentionality only fit for a superior species that would otherwise understand the explicit encompassing of appropriate ensemble behaviors, so as to better fulfill their intentions. 😅

Edited June 20, 2024 by Valtiel

[SwingBlade]

First, very interesting thread with a fair amount of thought provoking discussion.  Lots of good info.  
 

Second, some seem to hold that there is only one correct grip technique, some hold that only they possess the secret, and some hold that they are right because they are a teacher or a single digit.  
 

Third, some highly knowledgeable and skilled golfers say 4 to 7, some others say 8 to 10, some others say constant pressure,  some others say variable, and (heresy?) some say as light as possible.  
 

Perhaps there are no truly wrong answers and it largely depends on what the players primary objectives really are.  Assuming that virtually none are trying to play on the PGA Tour, then it is what best helps each to achieve their respective goals that determines what technique enables the accomplishment of that goal.  
 

If a 60 year old 90 mph swinger simply wants to hit the fairway with their driver and he or she might have been told to grip lightly and take their pinkies off the shaft when practicing to stop their aggressive OTT  moves and groove a slight draw and it's working for them, I would hazard that maybe that's completely OK.  

 

 

[Valtiel]

31 minutes ago, SwingBlade said:

If a 60 year old 90 mph swinger simply wants to hit the fairway with their driver and he or she might have been told to grip lightly and take their pinkies off the shaft when practicing to stop their aggressive OTT  moves and groove a slight draw and it's working for them, I would hazard that maybe that's completely OK.  

"If it works, it works" definitely has its place here for sure, but i'd be willing to bet that this "cure" would more often fall into the bandaid category. Those definitely have their place too, but it's one of those cases where the instructor and the student should be agreement about exactly what is happening, because the likelihood that the bandaid falls off at some point is high and the last thing you want is that kind of "buyer's remorse" coming from a student that thought they were fixed. Setting expectations based on what the student is looking for basically. Some people just want those little quick fixes in a "hey doc, can you just give me something for the pain?" kind of way, and that's fine if everyone is on the same page. 

Personally I don't mind temporarily using these things to aid in developing a feel for something that needs to change, and they can stick around if they just seem to keep working (see Fitzpatrick's cross-handed chipping as an example), but it's just good to understand what you're messing with there IMO. 

[Haroputt]

On 6/10/2024 at 9:57 AM, MonteScheinblum said:

This is why grip it like a baby bird is awful advice

I created a thread many years ago about  forearm strength and how that was related to swing speed and distance   Monte chime in about story about how after a long  driving match, he and a bunch of long driving dudes went to a bar  there was a machine that tested grip pressure for arm wrestling and Monte had one of the strongest force there despite dudes bigger than him.  
 

[SwingBlade]

I tried some of these grip thoughts today and had some very nice results that actually enhanced rhythm & tempo.  Understanding that I have a pretty strong grip, I was working on a grip range between 4-7 while endeavoring to minimize tension in the forearms.   So, is that a point from which to work going forward or am I missing the point?   Thanks.  

[MonteScheinblum]

30 minutes ago, Haroputt said:

I created a thread many years ago about  forearm strength and how that was related to swing speed and distance   Monte chime in about story about how after a long  driving match, he and a bunch of long driving dudes went to a bar  there was a machine that tested grip pressure for arm wrestling and Monte had one of the strongest force there despite dudes bigger than him.  
 

The strongest by a lot despite being the smallest guy

[TheDeanAbides]

1 hour ago, Haroputt said:

I created a thread many years ago about  forearm strength and how that was related to swing speed and distance   Monte chime in about story about how after a long  driving match, he and a bunch of long driving dudes went to a bar  there was a machine that tested grip pressure for arm wrestling and Monte had one of the strongest force there despite dudes bigger than him.  
 

That was a good thread and anecdote. 

[PedronNiall]

On 6/20/2024 at 1:30 AM, SwingBlade said:

I tried some of these grip thoughts today and had some very nice results that actually enhanced rhythm & tempo.  Understanding that I have a pretty strong grip, I was working on a grip range between 4-7 while endeavoring to minimize tension in the forearms.   So, is that a point from which to work going forward or am I missing the point?   Thanks.  

 

A grip that remains in control without producing unnecessary tension in the arms & shoulders would be a key point of all of this, including the main grip pressure vs swing speed title item. What has been measured correlates to that and to what you found: while limited, those better players who have gotten on the dynomometer showed varying pressure throughout the swing, with peaks occurring at similar points after takeaway and max applied forces that tended to be lower than the absolute maximum they are capable of applying. At least none of the measurements I recall show players with an address pressure approaching that of the other peaks in the swing. 

 

My best results are in from a secure but not tight grip at address. I'd honestly have trouble quantifying what the pressure really feels like approaching impact other to tell you that I feel in control and that it decreases after impact and into the follow through. 

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, PedronNiall said:

 

A grip that remains in control without producing unnecessary tension in the arms & shoulders would be a key point of all of this, including the main grip pressure vs swing speed title item. What has been measured correlates to that and to what you found: while limited, those better players who have gotten on the dynomometer showed varying pressure throughout the swing, with peaks occurring at similar points after takeaway and max applied forces that tended to be lower than the absolute maximum they are capable of applying. At least none of the measurements I recall show players with an address pressure approaching that of the other peaks in the swing. 

 

My best results are in from a secure but not tight grip at address. I'd honestly have trouble quantifying what the pressure really feels like approaching impact other to tell you that I feel in control and that it decreases after impact and into the follow through. 

 

[SwingBlade]

I've always wondered how it is that top pros can make a 115 mph driver swing in which they supposedly are using a very strong grip pressure at impact, yet they can completely and instantly release all pressure in both hands in the split second before the swing is finished and leave the club dangling in their open left hand at the top of the follow through?   Seems to often happen when the shot goes haywire or really off track from the planned result.  
 

It seems that if they were only creating the grip tension in their hands necessary for the swing speed created, it would understandably be easier to have such a totally relaxed ending in that split second.  
 

Just making an interesting observation and asking a question, not making any statement or drawing any conclusions.  
 

 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, SwingBlade said:

I've always wondered how it is that top pros can make a 115 mph driver swing in which they supposedly are using a very strong grip pressure at impact, yet they can completely and instantly release all pressure in both hands in the split second before the swing is finished and leave the club dangling in their open left hand at the top of the follow through?   Seems to often happen when the shot goes haywire or really off track from the planned result.

 

There's no "supposedly" about it — we can measure or determine with how much force the golf club is pulling at impact or just before impact (or at any other point in the golf swing), and if they didn't meet or exceed that force, the club would move in their hands (begin slipping out of their hands).

 

That's simple physics. It's factual. The club is pulling, and if the club isn't slipping, the golfer is pulling with equal and opposite forces.

 

Human beings are capable of letting go with one hand and finishing with one hand on the club. If that's a shock to you, I don't know what to tell you. We're capable of it. We're also capable of hitting a golf ball with a weird little stick 900 feet. Or more. Or rolling a ball across a green toward a hole 4.25" in diameter and pretty accurately predicting its path, and so on…

[SwingBlade]

3 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

My best results are in from a secure but not tight grip at address. I'd honestly have trouble quantifying what the pressure really feels like approaching impact other to tell you that I feel in control and that it decreases after impact and into the follow through. 

This statement seems quite logical and is what I would wish I had stated.  

[Soloman1]

call me crazy, but people can try different grip pressures themselves.

[MonteScheinblum]

2 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

call me crazy, but people can try different grip pressures themselves.

Just like it’s never dawned on the public in politics, it’s likely never to dawn on golfers and the instruction industry that both extremes are 🐶 💩 and you don’t solve the issues of one extreme by doing the other.

 

Baby bird-Death grip

Casting-Holding Lag

Over the top-Swing to right field

Turn in a Barrel-Shift Weight

Pivot driven swing-Arm driven swing

Hit up on driver-Hit down on irons

 

 

 

[SwingBlade]

On 6/21/2024 at 5:28 PM, iacas said:

 

There's no "supposedly" about it — we can measure or determine with how much force the golf club is pulling at impact or just before impact (or at any other point in the golf swing), and if they didn't meet or exceed that force, the club would move in their hands (begin slipping out of their hands).

 

That's simple physics. It's factual. The club is pulling, and if the club isn't slipping, the golfer is pulling with equal and opposite forces.

 

Human beings are capable of letting go with one hand and finishing with one hand on the club. If that's a shock to you, I don't know what to tell you. We're capable of it. We're also capable of hitting a golf ball with a weird little stick 900 feet. Or more. Or rolling a ball across a green toward a hole 4.25" in diameter and pretty accurately predicting its path, and so on…

It seems that for some reason, if someone endeavors to ask a question, you sometimes take it as an attack on your own grip theories and rather than choosing to respond to it with an informative clarifying explanation, you instead choose to focus on maybe one word,  ignore the question completely, and instead respond with indignant snarky sarcasm or belittling remarks. 
 

The term "supposedly" was a qualifier to the question of "how do they perform  this particular physical feat" without instantly releasing grip force or were they intentionally using much less pressure for the desired result on that particular shot?

 

You have posted data in the past stating that Tour Pros grip at up to 137 pounds of grip force or more in the lead hand.  That is one hell of a lot of force.  Yet, sometimes, I emphasize SOMETIMES, in the split second of an almost always very poor swing, they not only release the trail hand, they completely open the lead hand and the club dangles for a split second before falling straight down to the ground before the follow through is even finished.  
 

Since that virtually never happens with a good swing, does this indicate that a highly skilled big powerful guy like Scheffler recognizes in the instant before impact that his grip pressure is way over cooked or under cooked and or his downswing is way off plane and he backs off grip pressure to minimize the ensuing ball flight problem?

 

Thanks...

[TheDeanAbides]

30 minutes ago, Double Mocha Man said:

 

Diplomacy is not one of Erik's (iacas) strong points.  He's been rubbing people the wrong way for years now.  Otherwise, he's a pretty decent guy, though short on a sense of graciousness and humor.

 

 

 

 

 

My experience is that Erik simply doesn't suffer fools gladly. 

[iacas]

 

Spoiler

1 hour ago, SwingBlade said:

It seems that for some reason, if someone endeavors to ask a question, you sometimes take it as an attack on your own grip theories and rather than choosing to respond to it with an informative clarifying explanation, you instead choose to focus on maybe one word,  ignore the question completely, and instead respond with indignant snarky sarcasm or belittling remarks.

• I answered your question, seemingly not as thoroughly as you'd like, I guess.
• You're right that I keyed in on "supposedly" — it's a simple fact of physics and the measured data backs it up. There's no "supposedly" about it.
• I did not take it as an attack. It's a fact — your post just now is way more of a personal attack than anything you typed before. I admit to caring about understanding what is a fact and what is an opinion or a preference, and understanding the difference between the two.
• What I've said about the grip is not a "theory" either: the club is going to pull with a certain amount of force and if you don't match or exceed it, the club would slip in your hands. As I said before… which goes right to my next point:
• I've responded several times already: should I have to reply anew to every new person saying the same things to which I've already replied?
• There was nothing indignant, snarky, or belittling in my response to you. I also can't control how people read things. You wanna read tone of voice into plain text or something, I can't stop you; I can only point out you are the one adding it.

 

1 hour ago, SwingBlade said:

The term "supposedly" was a qualifier to the question of "how do they perform  this particular physical feat" without instantly releasing grip force or were they intentionally using much less pressure for the desired result on that particular shot?

 

I don't know what to tell you: they do. They're capable of hitting a ball and then letting go with typically their trail hand* before the end of the swing. How long do you think it takes to let go of a club?

 

You'll rarely see people let go with the lead hand, because it's typically gripping more firmly than the trail hand.

 

1 hour ago, SwingBlade said:

You have posted data in the past stating that Tour Pros grip at up to 137 pounds of grip force or more in the lead hand.  That is one hell of a lot of force.  Yet, sometimes, I emphasize SOMETIMES, in the split second of an almost always very poor swing, they not only release the trail hand, they completely open the lead hand and the club dangles for a split second before falling straight down to the ground before the follow through is even finished.

 

Again, how long do you think it takes to release the pressure in the grip? Cuz we know the answer: not very long. That's why golfers are capable of doing what you asked.

 

1 hour ago, SwingBlade said:

Since that virtually never happens with a good swing, does this indicate that a highly skilled big powerful guy like Scheffler recognizes in the instant before impact that his grip pressure is way over cooked or under cooked and or his downswing is way off plane and he backs off grip pressure to minimize the ensuing ball flight problem?

 

It's all happening after impact. And even if he recognized it before impact, his muscles wouldn't begin moving to do anything measurable until well after impact anyway. The signal doesn't travel along the nerves quite that quickly.

 

How does Rory hit this as hard as normal, yet slam on the brakes so quickly? He does. And his clubhead speed doesn't dip, he's not braking before impact, etc.:

 

 

The human body is pretty amazing.

 

15 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

My experience is that Erik simply doesn't suffer fools gladly. 

 

I don't, but it's not really about that. It's mildly tiring to keep having to repeat the same things over and over again, things that we know to be factual. Combine that with people adding their own tone of voice to posts which is not there as it's being typed, and you get… annoyed or unhappy people. I can't control how others take something; only how I type it.

[SheriffBooth]

Must be the heat.  Thread's been cleaned up a bit.  Please don't squabble and stay on topic.  Thanks!

[iNeedMoreGolf]

When i grip hard.. i tend to hook or pull shots. Too light though and fade or big fade or worse. I think a medium grip makes sense.

[Shilgy]

4 hours ago, iNeedMoreGolf said:

When i grip hard.. i tend to hook or pull shots. Too light though and fade or big fade or worse. I think a medium grip makes sense.

That’s been the gist of the entire thread. Light medium hard are YOUR feels. What feels firm to you might be barely there to someone with stronger hands.

Edited June 24, 2024 by Shilgy

[Dewdman42]

On 6/21/2024 at 5:14 PM, SwingBlade said:

I've always wondered how it is that top pros can make a 115 mph driver swing in which they supposedly are using a very strong grip pressure at impact, yet they can completely and instantly release all pressure in both hands in the split second before the swing is finished and leave the club dangling in their open left hand at the top of the follow through?   Seems to often happen when the shot goes haywire or really off track from the planned result.  
 

It seems that if they were only creating the grip tension in their hands necessary for the swing speed created, it would understandably be easier to have such a totally relaxed ending in that split second.  
 

Just making an interesting observation and asking a question, not making any statement or drawing any conclusions.  
 

 

 

grip pressure and wrist tension are two different things.  I think of holding my club about like a hammer if I were hammering nails.  There is looseness in the wrist, but I am gripping the handle tight enough to handle the force that will be exerted from the head of the hammer being whipped by my looser wrists.  

 

I think much ado about nothing has been made sometimes telling people to have a looser grip, because basically they had tight shoulders, hunched over the ball, white knuckling the grip, etc.  Lighter grip may have been a somewhat misguided cue to get them generally loosen up their wrists, their arms, their shoulders...  This idea has just circulated around a lot, along with many other myths.    Yet, white knuckling the grip,...which yes is a thing also...will in fact lead to overly tight wrists, arms and shoulders.  So...is there a place to tell someone to lighten up their grip?  Probably sometimes yes.  But this idea has been overplayed many times IMHO.

 

I don't hold a hammer like a baby bird, yet my hammer throwing wrist will be loose.  My arm and shoulder will be loose.  Not rag doll!  Loose, allowing joints to move fully through muscular effort in order to swing the hammer at the nail.  However, the actual "grip" will fundamentally have to be enough to safely hold the hammer while doing this...and its not like holding a baby bird or any of the other analogies that people have said.  The wrist looseness needs to be there though.

 

There is a fine line between maintaining firm grip and loose wrists.  But IMHO that is what we're talking about.  I think also it's likely that our actual grip does change throughout the swing and through impact.  It's firm at the moment we need it to be.

Edited June 24, 2024 by Dewdman42

[PedronNiall]

For those still having trouble, I'll add you'll know you're there when the club can't help but respond well to feeling the appropriate level of pressure being applied. 

 

[Dewdman42]

I'll also add for myself that I am a piano player, where speed, finger strength and dexterity have always been more important then hand strength per se.  I have somewhat small hands, they are literally dainty looking.  when I meet golfers to play, I have to knuckle bump them because about 1 out of 3 golfers will vice grip me in the hand shake in a way that is painful and can stress my hand and linger for half the round even...  It's always a coin toss every time I meet someone, if I try to be friendly and shake their hand, will they try to crush my hand like a gorilla, or make more of a firm, yet uncrushing handshake.  There is no rhyme or reason to it..I can never tell who will have control over their own strength and who will literally try to destroy my hand with a simple handshake...so I don't even do it anymore, I just knuckle bump them and smile more.  But the point is...people are all over the place with their handshake grip pressure...there is very little rhyme or reason to it.  If I wince when someone shakes my hand too hard, they seem genuinely surprised by my reaction...they literally have no idea and do not realize they are doing it, they just thought a good firm handshake would be respectful in some way (i see it the other way around).  I mean who likes a rag doll dead fish handshake?  Its not super enjoyable, but honestly I prefer that over a death grip bone crusher.  But people literally just have no idea about their grip strength.    some people use too much, some people use too little.  What I can say for myself is that I seem to have enough to swing the golf club.  I try to shake hands with people with a grip that is somewhere halfway between dead fish and bone crushing.  Personally I think the golf grip probably ought to be somewhere in that zone as well.  its firm.  its not bone crushing.  But honestly I believe that there are many people that seriously have no idea where they sit on that spectrum.

Edited June 24, 2024 by Dewdman42