Grip pressure vs swing speed?

[baudi]

1 hour ago, Dewdman42 said:

 If I wince when someone shakes my hand too hard, they seem genuinely surprised by my reaction...they literally have no idea and do not realize they are doing it, they just thought a good firm handshake would be respectful in some way (i see it the other way around).  I mean who likes a rag doll dead fish handshake?  Its not super enjoyable, but honestly I prefer that over a death grip bone crusher.  But people literally just have no idea about their grip strength.    some people use too much, some people use too little.

Quite a good point. I changed my PoV over time: for a hand shake I strive to adjust my firmness to match the person's force and attitude. A very interesting perspective as there are many sorts of people it is a sort of social experiment.  

#feel is real.

 

A similar attitude I use for the golf shot at hand. The softness or rigidity goes with the kind of shot and affects the release.

My shortgame pre shot is filled with these types of feels as a pretest: to the surface and the guessed outcome.  

Hence the topic of grip pressure vs swing speed is a bit to narrow for my liking. But that's OP's choice.

 

Moreover how many Newtons the club pulls is the kind of depth in singularity I don't care for at all. 

Not that I question the measurement. It 's just the kind of fact that hardly means anything to me. 

Whereas some may think the pulling the club being important at a certain point, I prefer to realize how (not even how much) my arms push down from my shoulders/waist to make sure the release of the wrists are shallow and fluently in line with the swing. 

   

 

 

[Valtiel]

11 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

For those still having trouble, I'll add you'll know you're there when the club can't help but respond well to feeling the appropriate level of pressure being applied. 

 

Similarly...

[PedronNiall]

10 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Similarly...

 

You can really see the benefit of starting with a looser but in control grip and naturally firming it up towards impact there. 

 

@Dewdman42 Think you gave one of the best illustrations in the thread for the reality of applying grip pressure. Both ends of the spectrum lack control in the swing for different reasons, though. The ones with weaker closing strength can't generate the force needed coming into impact while the ones crushing other people's hands squeeze the club so hard their wrists can't hinge properly going back. 

 

Mentioned it in another thread on grip pressure, but besides what's needed to ensure the club doesn't fly out of control coming into impact there also needs to be enough pressure from address to ensure the club doesn't twist while going back or while setting and redirecting during transition. Whether you tend towards a more square face orientation in the takeaway or one that rotates open at P2 there's going to be torque occurring along the path that needs to be kept in check. One more reason to have a good glove and clean grips for every single session. 

[GungHoGolf]

Just playing devil's advocate here: does Min Woo Lee look like he's on the high end of grip strength, or that he might crush your hand if you shook hands with him? He's #3 on the PGA Tour driving distance for 2024, averaging 314 yards (5 yards behind Rory and 7 yards ahead of Jake Knapp).

 

I'm not saying he doesn't have above-average grip strength. But usually you can see more forearm muscle mass/definition and vasculature in guys with an unusually strong grip (e.g. "farmer's arms").

 

[Dewdman42]

plus if you think abou the way the clubhead is delivered to the ball...first with lag where hardly any grip strength is needed...and then the clubhead releases towards the ball, but I am not convinced at the moment that some super grip strength is needed when the clubhead is moving out through release.  Its like a jedi lightsaber move with moment of inertia as the clubhead moves around the hands.  it does not pull the hands towards the ball or anything of this nature.  the clubhead moving out will create at least SOME amount of force the hands have to be able to accommodate, but i personally don't think its much more than wielding a hammer to nails.

 

Now i say that, when I am not any kind of long ball champion and never will be, so maybe those guys are in a completely different world.  I do think baby bird grip is not enough.  You have to grip the club enough to keep it from leaving your hands and also to prevent it from twisting in your hand...that's about it.  A good glove and clean quality grip adds a lot of ability to have that without necessarily squeezing the grip super hard to get it.  

 

 

Edited June 25, 2024 by Dewdman42

[betarhoalphadelta]

46 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

plus if you think abou the way the clubhead is delivered to the ball...first with lag where hardly any grip strength is needed...and then the clubhead releases towards the ball, but I am not convinced at the moment that some super grip strength is needed when the clubhead is moving out through release.  Its like a jedi lightsaber move with moment of inertia as the clubhead moves around the hands.  it does not pull the hands towards the ball or anything of this nature.  the clubhead moving out will create at least SOME amount of force the hands have to be able to accommodate, but i personally don't think its much more than wielding a hammer to nails.

 

 

The force that even a 210g clubhead attached to a shaft traveling in an arc at 100+ mph puts on the hands is actually quite a bit. Tutelman goes into it here, but for higher swing speeds it can easily exceed 100 lbs of force. The only thing you have to keep that club from slipping out of your hands is the friction that comes from your grip pressure. 

 

I recommend reading the Tutelman piece in full... Quite fascinating stuff.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, GungHoGolf said:

Just playing devil's advocate here: does Min Woo Lee look like he's on the high end of grip strength, or that he might crush your hand if you shook hands with him? He's #3 on the PGA Tour driving distance for 2024, averaging 314 yards (5 yards behind Rory and 7 yards ahead of Jake Knapp).

 

I'm not saying he doesn't have above-average grip strength. But usually you can see more forearm muscle mass/definition and vasculature in guys with an unusually strong grip (e.g. "farmer's arms").

 

Again…

• We know how much the golf club is pulling around the bottom of his swing.
• It's a simple fact of physics that if he's not applying an equal (or higher) and opposing force, the club would begin sliding out of his hands.

That the club isn't sliding out of his hands tells us that he's squeezing with over 100 pounds of force.

 

Good grips help, but they're not literally glued to your hands.

 

3 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

The force that even a 210g clubhead attached to a shaft traveling in an arc at 100+ mph puts on the hands is actually quite a bit. Tutelman goes into it here, but for higher swing speeds it can easily exceed 100 lbs of force. The only thing you have to keep that club from slipping out of your hands is the friction that comes from your grip pressure. 

 

I recommend reading the Tutelman piece in full... Quite fascinating stuff.

 

Yup.

[Dewdman42]

Yea, I know my measly little 275 drives are not what some of you can do, but there is no way I am experiencing anything remotely close to 100 pounds of force in my hands when striking the ball or at any other time in the golf swing.

 

 

[TheDeanAbides]

9 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

Yea, I know my measly little 275 drives are not what some of you can do, but there is no way I am experiencing anything remotely close to 100 pounds of force in my hands when striking the ball or at any other time in the golf swing.

 

 

Feel ain’t real. 

[Dewdman42]

ok so you think I need to grip the club, or apparently you think I already am gripping the golf club, with the same force as if I were lifting 100 pound dumbells?  I'm sorry but I disagree.  But hey...go ahead and grip as you like..what I am doing is working for me and I'm not going to lose sleep over it.  I don't think it requires gorilla grip....and I also don't think it makes sense to hold the grip like a bay bird you don't want to crush...it's somewhere in the middle.  if in the middle is 100 pounds according to you, then so be it.

 

Edited June 25, 2024 by Dewdman42

[TheDeanAbides]

4 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

ok so you think I need to grip the club, or apparently you think I already am gripping the golf club, with the same force as if I were lifting 100 pound dumbells?  I'm sorry but I disagree.  But hey...go ahead and grip as you like..what I am doing is working for me and I'm not going to lose sleep over it.  I don't think it requires gorilla grip....and I also don't think it makes sense to hold the grip like a bay bird you don't want to crush...it's somewhere in the middle.  if in the middle is 100 pounds according to you, then so be it.

 

Do you understand what ‘measured’ means? 

[betarhoalphadelta]

19 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

ok so you think I need to grip the club, or apparently you think I already am gripping the golf club, with the same force as if I were lifting 100 pound dumbells?  I'm sorry but I disagree.  But hey...go ahead and grip as you like..what I am doing is working for me and I'm not going to lose sleep over it.  I don't think it requires gorilla grip....and I also don't think it makes sense to hold the grip like a bay bird you don't want to crush...it's somewhere in the middle.  if in the middle is 100 pounds according to you, then so be it.

 

 

There's a big difference between "lifting" and even "holding" 100 lb of weights and what happens in the golf swing. It happens quickly:

 

 

So about half a second before impact, grip force starts to ramp up, and peaks (according to Tutelman) about 80 ms before impact. And then it ramps down. 

 

The parallel would be if you had a grill relatively hot and you pass your hand over it. To you it might not FEEL like you've just exposed your hand to ~400 degrees of heat, because it passed quickly. Whereas "lifting or holding" weights would be like leaving your hand above that 400 degree grill for a minute. You'd burn the crap out of yourself. 

 

It's simply physics. 275 is an excellent driving distance suggesting >100 mph of swing speed. There's no way to hold on to the club if you're not applying that much force on the grip:

 

 

[Socrates]

2 hours ago, GungHoGolf said:

Just playing devil's advocate here: does Min Woo Lee look like he's on the high end of grip strength, or that he might crush your hand if you shook hands with him? He's #3 on the PGA Tour driving distance for 2024, averaging 314 yards (5 yards behind Rory and 7 yards ahead of Jake Knapp).

 

I'm not saying he doesn't have above-average grip strength. But usually you can see more forearm muscle mass/definition and vasculature in guys with an unusually strong grip (e.g. "farmer's arms").

 

Back in my youth, I didn't look much different and was getting close to what he is doing.  Looks can be deceiving.  I might not have been able to crush walnuts in my hands, but I clearly had enough grip strength for the forces I was generating.

[johnrobison]

34 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

ok so you think I need to grip the club, or apparently you think I already am gripping the golf club, with the same force as if I were lifting 100 pound dumbells?

Well, it really depends how you're lifting it. That aside... you definitely would do exactly that and it's not hard to do with a rubber wrap on the dumbbell and a golf glove on your hand, for only about a tenth of a second.

[iacas]

https://superspeedgolf.com/blogs/news/grip-strength-correlations-to-speed

 

 

Correlation isn't causation, but also… if you can't grip the club firmly enough, your body will not generally let you swing it fast.

 

[Tfb003]

Can someone explain to me that if I take my right (trail) grip and feel like it is literally resting on the club and not squeezing at all, I jump from about 155 to 162 ball speed in a simulator and feel like I have more control. Left hand is on the grip solidly but not squeezing hard.

 

Is this just an insane case of feel vs. real where what I feel is “gripping” with the right hand is just overly tense and when I feel like I’m really not even holding it I am using proper pressure?

[betarhoalphadelta]

12 minutes ago, Tfb003 said:

Can someone explain to me that if I take my right (trail) grip and feel like it is literally resting on the club and not squeezing at all, I jump from about 155 to 162 ball speed in a simulator and feel like I have more control. Left hand is on the grip solidly but not squeezing hard.

 

Is this just an insane case of feel vs. real where what I feel is “gripping” with the right hand is just overly tense and when I feel like I’m really not even holding it I am using proper pressure?

 

If you read the Tutelman stuff linked above, the lead hand grip is by FAR the controlling one. I think based on what they measured, about 95% of the total grip force. 

 

So it's possible that for you, individually, you're getting too tense with the trail hand inhibiting swing speed, and when loosening up you are freeing yourself to swing more effectively. From that Tutelman data, the trail hand grip pressure should be a tiny portion of what you need to hold onto the club, so if you're getting unnecessarily tense in the trail hand, it might be causing other issues?

 

That said, I'm probably over my skis on this one. I don't know that much about the golf swing. I just get involved in physics discussion because I'm an engineer 😉

 

[ThinkingPlus]

15 minutes ago, Tfb003 said:

Can someone explain to me that if I take my right (trail) grip and feel like it is literally resting on the club and not squeezing at all, I jump from about 155 to 162 ball speed in a simulator and feel like I have more control. Left hand is on the grip solidly but not squeezing hard.

 

Is this just an insane case of feel vs. real where what I feel is “gripping” with the right hand is just overly tense and when I feel like I’m really not even holding it I am using proper pressure?

Very likely the case.

[johnrobison]

47 minutes ago, Tfb003 said:

Can someone explain to me that if I take my right (trail) grip and feel like it is literally resting on the club and not squeezing at all, I jump from about 155 to 162 ball speed in a simulator and feel like I have more control. Left hand is on the grip solidly but not squeezing hard.

 

Is this just an insane case of feel vs. real where what I feel is “gripping” with the right hand is just overly tense and when I feel like I’m really not even holding it I am using proper pressure?

I bet it's a very different looking swing, too. You may be tipping the shaft or holding off the face or some sort of not good stuff when you apply your trail hand, and then causing you to slow the swing.

[Tfb003]

1 minute ago, johnrobison said:

I bet it's a very different looking swing, too. You may be tipping the shaft or holding off the face or some sort of not good stuff when you apply your trail hand, and then causing you to slow the swing.

I need to use my simulator camera when I get the chance, but my qualitative assessment is I am more likely to hit a push or a push draw with the “light to none” trail grip pressure vs. normal I am more likely to hit a hook to toe hook. Maybe I am holding too tight and flashing the face shut.

[Simpsonia]

3 hours ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

 

It's simply physics. 275 is an excellent driving distance suggesting >100 mph of swing speed. There's no way to hold on to the club if you're not applying that much force on the grip:

 

 

 

That graph is fascinating in an illustrative way by including the 5i data. It would appear that grip force is probably NOT the limiting factor at in at all in most tour players' driver swing. If a tour average 5i swing speed is 96mph (according to the new Trackman averages), that's just shy of 150lbs of grip force, which would be about the same as the driver at 125mph. Given that tour average driver is 115mph, there has to be other limiting factors at play then for them. 

 

If you try to correlate that with amateurs' swing speeds, I bet you'd see a similar swing speed ratios where the driver lags behind what they are capable of with a 5i (when comparing relative grip force required). 

[Nels55]

Some thoughts:

The grip is tapered and made of material that is designed to give a good hold.  It does not take that much grip pressure to hold a driver that is moving at 100 mph. 

The centripetal force is provided by the body and applied through the arms and hands. 

A lot of pressure would be required to swing a club with no grip and Vaseline on the shaft. 

I mean when is the last time you felt like the club might slip out of your hands while swinging?

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

It does not take that much grip pressure to hold a driver that is moving at 100 mph. 

 

I couldn't decide between:

 and 

Edited June 26, 2024 by iacas

[Soloman1]

well, the same thing is being said over and over, and also in the video above. more of the same.

 

firm grip, but maintaining good wrist motion is what better players do.

 

squeeze a ball or a spring grip exerciser with your lead hand for a month and see what happens.

 

ever wonder why older players lose so much distance?

by the time you reach 55, grip strength has reduced to about that of a 14-15 year old.

 

[CoreyW1369]

Increased grip strength/pressure does not necessarily increase the friction between the hands and the grip. 

 

I would love to know Min Woo's numbers on a grip dyno. 

[Soloman1]

38 minutes ago, Golf_Goof said:

Increased grip strength/pressure does not necessarily increase the friction between the hands and the grip. 

 

oh my.

[Nels55]

42 minutes ago, Golf_Goof said:

Increased grip strength/pressure does not necessarily increase the friction between the hands and the grip. 

 

I would love to know Min Woo's numbers on a grip dyno. 

If you hold onto a club while having another person pull on the head then the harder they pull the tighter your grip will get.  You will also need to counter act the pulling force with your body.

[cav5]

the force only becomes too hard for your hands to handle when you get out of position or do not reposition correctly

[CoreyW1369]

52 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

If you hold onto a club while having another person pull on the head then the harder they pull the tighter your grip will get.  You will also need to counter act the pulling force with your body.

Didn't you bring up the Vaseline covered shaft example? These are 2 different forces at play.  

Edited June 26, 2024 by Golf_Goof

[GolfTurkey]

I sense that this thread has all-time potential