Can we just be honest about Modus shafts?

[JD3]

For the most part they aren't anything new, other than overall tighter weight tolerances. 120 is just a somewhat lighter R300, 130 somewhat heavier PX. I don't have much experience with 115 or 125 but I think theyre just slight variations on true temper somethings. I really think the only meaningfully different bend profile for it's weight class is the 105, which is like a much lighter $-taper. But since $-taper is too stiff in butt and bend point too high already imo, just makes the 105 unplayable. So yeah the tolerances are better than other brands, the bend profiles are for the most part dressed up versions of something already out there for a while. 

Edited June 10, 2024 by JD3

[Nessism]

Modus 120 is a unique shaft, with no other shaft in the marketplace with the same profile.  

[rsballer10]

1 hour ago, JD3 said:

For the most part they aren't anything new, other than overall tighter weight tolerances.

But in terms of what makes a quality steel shaft - this is pretty much at the top of the list. It's what defines the dynamic gold line, and what ultimately created the tour issue DG line. What's nice about Nippon is they meet those tolerances at a lower price point than DG TI or PX or KBS. At least for me, the average Joe who pays MSRP for shafts.

1 hour ago, JD3 said:

120 is just a somewhat lighter R300, 130 somewhat heavier PX. I don't have much experience with 115 or 125 but I think theyre just slight variations on true temper somethings

I hear this sentiment a lot, however they are not carbon copies. The 120 has a similar EI profile to DG, but I don't think it's accomplished the same way. The step patterns are clearly different. Looks closer to an old Hogan apex shaft than a DG. Similar weight as well.

 

Modus 130 also is not the same as PX. I wouldn't consider the PX to have a softer tip section at all. I believe PX has a constant 2" tip section throughout the set, which is unusual.

1 hour ago, JD3 said:

I really think the only meaningfully different bend profile for it's weight class is the 105, which is like a much lighter $-taper. But since $-taper is too stiff in butt and bend point too high already imo, just makes the 105 unplayable.

I don't think the 105 and the $-taper are comparable at all. Not the same weight. This statement is just odd in general, as the $-taper is somehow stiff in the handle AND has too high of a bend point - which is a contradictory statement. There's also no such thing as a bend point.

 

At the end of the day, there's only so much you can do with steel. I think Nippon did a great job of pushing the boundaries of wall thicknesses/step patterns in the modus line.

 

Your title reads "Can we just be honest about Modus shafts". This is as honest as I can be about the Modus line.

 

Edited June 10, 2024 by rsballer10

[markheardjr]

Turn around, upside, flip over and look in a mirror and maybe your post makes sense?  Tour105 I would argue is the most common of the profiles. 120 is an exacerbated DG profile, 130 is an exacerbated PX, and 125 maybe is a more extreme KBS Tour?

 

In terms of stiffness "Mark's Feel" grading 1-10 Butt to Mid to Tip id say:

 

DG goes 6-6-8, Tour120 goes 4-7-9

PX goes 7-6-5, Tour130 goes 8-9-4

KBS Tour goes 7-5-7, Tour125 goes 8-4-8

Tour 105 is also mid/firm butt, softish middle and mid/firm tip which is like a watered down / lighter Tour125 and kind of fills that gap between DG and KBS. But theres a ton of shafts in that weight class. Modus just distributes the weight and flex in a way that fits more golfers. The modus line is a decade old now, their designs have been copied. KBS Tour V, DG 120 Mid, etc.

[Pepperturbo]

A shaft like Modus is smoother and provides a different trajectory than DG, thus different.  Just like PX is different from both of them.  Vary the weight and down range result varies. 

 

Attempting to compare all the shafts to one another to conclude they are similar, or no different doesn't accomplish much.  Subtle spec differences make shafts different.  I play MMT in irons because they are smoother and have a slightly different handle, vs. SF, and both are different from same weight Axiom.  Shaft specs may appear similar to one another, but how those variables play out in the hands of the user is what makes one better than the other.

[phizzy30]

Modus 130 is similar in EI profile to the KBS Tour V where it's softer in the tip then gets really stiff in the mid and handle.  Modus 120 is a unique profile and I don't think it's similar to any steel shaft on the market in this regard.  125 is pretty much the equivalent to the classic DG line up in general. 

[bcflyguy1]

21 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Modus 130 is similar in EI profile to the KBS Tour V where it's softer in the tip then gets really stiff in the mid and handle.  Modus 120 is a unique profile and I don't think it's similar to any steel shaft on the market in this regard.  125 is pretty much the equivalent to the classic DG line up in general. 

This is correct.

[3step]

Respectfully, and at the risk of also making an incorrect post, it sounds like you do not like that some golfers love their Modus shafts, and you are saying-  "Hey, let's be honest, there is nothing special here. It is all the same stuff. Please stop imagining that you are playing something so great." If I am wrong, please correct me.

 

Just saying that these models are simply "dressed up versions of something already out there", does not make it so. Here are 3 points that popped into my head regarding your suggestion.

 

1) Many years back, when True Temper bought the intellectual property, name, etc. from Royal Precision, (makers of the Project X and other models) and Royal Precision ceased to exist, True Temper had 23 of the top 25 players on the PGA TOUR using their products. TT wanted to have all the top 25 to have TT in their bags, so they worked like heck to get Vijay Singh and Jim Furyk to switchover to TT. They both played an Apollo model at the time. TT gave it a valiant effort to build a shaft that gave these guys a similar performance to their existing shafts, but they were not able to get their products into the bags of Singh and Furyk.  My point is that despite the number one steel shaft company's effort to produce a similar product to the Apollo models, both Vijay Singh and Jim Furyk told them that TT models and the Apollo models were different. Even though they created shaft options that had super similar specifications, it is not so easy to make a steel shaft copy, even when you trying to intentionally capture the same feel, performance, etc.

 

2) However, in the case of the Modus models, the specification differences between the Nippon and TT are stark, and as Nessism accurately posts - "Modus 120 is a unique shaft, with no other shaft in the marketplace with the same profile.". If you hit or measure this shaft model, and compare it to other models that came before it, it is impossible to say with accuracy that this model is a copy.

 

3) A definitive example of a specification that is contrary to your claims, is the Modus Tour130. If you look at the Cool Clubs S3 database you can see that this model has the stiffest mid section of any steel shaft model, before or today, which belies your contention that this model is a dressed up version.

 

3step

 

 

 

 

[JD3]

6 minutes ago, 3step said:

Respectfully, and at the risk of also making an incorrect post, it sounds like you do not like that some golfers love their Modus shafts, and you are saying-  "Hey, let's be honest, there is nothing special here. It is all the same stuff. Please stop imagining that you are playing something so great." If I am wrong, please correct me.

 

Just saying that these models are simply "dressed up versions of something already out there", does not make it so. Here are 3 points that popped into my head regarding your suggestion.

 

1) Many years back, when True Temper bought the intellectual property, name, etc. from Royal Precision, (makers of the Project X and other models) and Royal Precision ceased to exist, True Temper had 23 of the top 25 players on the PGA TOUR using their products. TT wanted to have all the top 25 to have TT in their bags, so they worked like heck to get Vijay Singh and Jim Furyk to switchover to TT. They both played an Apollo model at the time. TT gave it a valiant effort to build a shaft that gave these guys a similar performance to their existing shafts, but they were not able to get their products into the bags of Singh and Furyk.  My point is that despite the number one steel shaft company's effort to produce a similar product to the Apollo models, both Vijay Singh and Jim Furyk told them that TT models and the Apollo models were different. Even though they created shaft options that had super similar specifications, it is not so easy to make a steel shaft copy, even when you trying to intentionally capture the same feel, performance, etc.

 

2) However, in the case of the Modus models, the specification differences between the Nippon and TT are stark, and as Nessism accurately posts - "Modus 120 is a unique shaft, with no other shaft in the marketplace with the same profile.". If you hit or measure this shaft model, and compare it to other models that came before it, it is impossible to say with accuracy that this model is a copy.

 

3) A definitive example of a specification that is contrary to your claims, is the Modus Tour130. If you look at the Cool Clubs S3 database you can see that this model has the stiffest mid section of any steel shaft model, before or today, which belies your contention that this model is a dressed up version.

 

3step

 

 

 

 

Im just questioning what all the hype is about, I dont care what other people play. When I say "dressed up" I mean a somewhat exaggerated bend profile of an existing and popular shaft. WRT Tour 120, PX LZ would be most similar ... actually, quite similar, it's just that the softer mid section isn't as long.

[HateTheHighDraw]

Honestly, whatever the profile, Nippons just feel better. To me at least. 

[CTG77]

All I can say about Nippon shafts is that the 1150gh Stiff shafts paired with the Mizuno Pro 223 irons were giving me HORRIBLE elbow pain.  I've now been through MMT125TX (in the Mizunos) and TT DG X100, both regular in a set of Toura CB irons I built for MGS and Tour Issue in a set of 2020 TaylorMade P7MCs I got off Facebook Marketplace.  My elbow pain has not only not returned, but I'm hitting more balls then ever doing this testing, and almost all of it off mats or indoors (so also off artificial turf).  I think there was something about the profile of the Nippon shaft that was transferring the vibration to my arms that the X100 shafts just don't do.

[Nessism]

27 minutes ago, JD3 said:

Im just questioning what all the hype is about, I dont care what other people play. 

 

I think that a lot of people respect Nippon shafts, but I'm unaware of any hype.

[mogc60]

I always love the comments on the creation of the Tour Issue Dynamic gold. Weight sorted same shafts for $30 more a pop. Not much creation. For the record I just shafted two sets of irons with dynamic gold non tour issue. Biggest margin of variance was 1 gram in all the shafts 

[PNW]

39 minutes ago, JD3 said:

Im just questioning what all the hype is about, I dont care what other people play. When I say "dressed up" I mean a somewhat exaggerated bend profile of an existing and popular shaft. WRT Tour 120, PX LZ would be most similar ... actually, quite similar, it's just that the softer mid section isn't as long.

Not sure what you mean by "hype." They're barely played on tour compared to True Temper products. I think KBS gets more play.

 

They're just another good quality set of product lines that are fairly diverse in profiles and offer good alternatives to DG, PX, and KBS players but with their own unique differences. 

[JD3]

4 minutes ago, mogc60 said:

I always love the comments on the creation of the Tour Issue Dynamic gold. Weight sorted same shafts for $30 more a pop. Not much creation. For the record I just shafted two sets of irons with dynamic gold non tour issue. Biggest margin of variance was 1 gram in all the shafts 

thanks, thats good to know. my concern w/ non-tours is that their weights were all over the place because the tighter ones were all pre-sorted for "tour" designation

[nick_guard]

Switched from DGTI's to Nippons two seasons ago. Instantly loved them. Truthfully feel better than any truetempers imo. Yet to really give KBS a go but I'm in no hurry.

[Puttersaurus Rex]

120x gets considerable play in the PGA.  Then 130, 125, and a few 115/105.  Lots of Modus in the other tours as well.  Enough of a difference that these players are using them over alternative choices.

 

Plenty of amateurs have found success as well.

 

There is also this thread to peruse at your leisure:

 

 

[3step]

2 hours ago, JD3 said:

Im just questioning what all the hype is about, I dont care what other people play. When I say "dressed up" I mean a somewhat exaggerated bend profile of an existing and popular shaft. WRT Tour 120, PX LZ would be most similar ... actually, quite similar, it's just that the softer mid section isn't as long.

Yes, I would say that the PX LZ is kind of a similar design to the TOUR120. But it is not so accurate to say that the TOUR120 is a dressed up version of the PX LZ. The PX LZ was not introduced until a year or two or three after the invention of the TOUR120.

 

3step

[JD3]

3 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

Modus 130 is similar in EI profile to the KBS Tour V where it's softer in the tip then gets really stiff in the mid and handle.  Modus 120 is a unique profile and I don't think it's similar to any steel shaft on the market in this regard.  125 is pretty much the equivalent to the classic DG line up in general. 

I pretty much agree with this. I'm not saying they're bad, just that a lot of them are not unique, again just a more pronounced version of something already existed. That said, I pretty much agree 120 may be the lone exception. But imo the last clearly different shaft to come out was the KBS 120. I'd call that stiff, soft, stiff...but overall smooth because the transition from one part of the shaft to another is not dramatic. Before that of course there were DG S300 (softish, firmer, stiff) X100 (touch of soft, very stiff, tiny touch of active), and PX (very stiff, very stiff, small area of really active).

Edited June 10, 2024 by JD3

[JD3]

Just now, 3step said:

Yes, I would say that the PX LZ is kind of a similar design to the TOUR120. But it is not so accurate to say that the TOUR120 is a dressed up version of the PX LZ. The PX LZ was not introduced until a year or two or three after the invention of the TOUR120.

 

3step

I agree 120 is different than both, I don't really compare them. If I had to I'd go with KBS 120 because the stiff tip section seem longer on them than the PX LZ. 

[AbSWFPGA]

That’s what’s great about all the different shaft options out there. What works for some doesn’t work for others. Working in the industry I’ve tested different Nippon shafts hundreds of times. To me they are the best feeling shaft on the market. Doesn’t matter how stiff of flex I go. But they also do not work for my swing whatsoever. I can hit them perfect and the ball almost goes backwards. I love my x100s. I’m sure a lot of people don’t get along with x100s. Nippon certainly has a long lasting presence on tour. Whatever they are doing works for a lot of people. 

[Nessism]

9 minutes ago, JD3 said:

I pretty much agree with this. I'm not saying they're bad, just that a lot of them are not unique, again just a more pronounced version of something already existed. 

 

It's just a golf shaft.  There is only so much manufacturers can do to create something "unique".  And who says every shaft needs to be unique?  Most people do just fine with a medium flex profile shaft.  Nothing unique what so ever, and that's fine.

[JD3]

18 minutes ago, AbSWFPGA said:

That’s what’s great about all the different shaft options out there. What works for some doesn’t work for others. Working in the industry I’ve tested different Nippon shafts hundreds of times. To me they are the best feeling shaft on the market. Doesn’t matter how stiff of flex I go. But they also do not work for my swing whatsoever. I can hit them perfect and the ball almost goes backwards. I love my x100s. I’m sure a lot of people don’t get along with x100s. Nippon certainly has a long lasting presence on tour. Whatever they are doing works for a lot of people. 

How would you characterize the x100 profile? 

[CTG77]

3 hours ago, AbSWFPGA said:

That’s what’s great about all the different shaft options out there. What works for some doesn’t work for others. Working in the industry I’ve tested different Nippon shafts hundreds of times. To me they are the best feeling shaft on the market. Doesn’t matter how stiff of flex I go. But they also do not work for my swing whatsoever. I can hit them perfect and the ball almost goes backwards. I love my x100s. I’m sure a lot of people don’t get along with x100s. Nippon certainly has a long lasting presence on tour. Whatever they are doing works for a lot of people. 

I Ioved the feeling off the clubface. I hated the elbow pain. It 100% had to be the shafts, because I played and practiced just as much with the Mizunos with the MMT 125TX shafts in the and have practiced WAY more with the P7MC and Toura CB irons shafted with the X100s than I ever did with the Nippon 1150gh shafts. 

[Punkekid]

JMHO, each manufacturer has their own versions of various weight steel shafts, Nippon is always the smoothest. Modus is unique in that it fills holes other manufacturers don't fill. The 130 is unlike any other shaft out there, with where the stiffness is in the shaft. Same for the 105 and 120. Others make similar shafts, but the "feel" factor is just different with Nippon. I play Nippon shafts in all my clubs.

[AbSWFPGA]

4 hours ago, JD3 said:

How would you characterize the x100 profile? 

A nice balanced smooth shaft. But not even close to the smoothness of a Nippon. Can go 60% at it and get such a nice feel. 

[phizzy30]

4 hours ago, JD3 said:

How would you characterize the x100 profile? 

It's actually what I fit into but I've never been a fan from a feel perspective.  Back in the day, DG was pretty much the only option then PX came along and I absolutely hated the way they felt.  I prefer the Modus 125X in terms of a shaft that's pretty much the same EI profile as X100 because it's much smoother.  X100 has some feel to it, but it's meh to me.  The younger generation is lucky to have so many options now in terms of shafts in general. 

[Valtiel]

6 hours ago, JD3 said:

I pretty much agree with this. I'm not saying they're bad, just that a lot of them are not unique

 

6 hours ago, Nessism said:

 

It's just a golf shaft.  There is only so much manufacturers can do to create something "unique"

Yeah that's what I was going to say. Steel is steel, its options are limited within the expected weight range of a golf shaft, so if you're doing it:

1) To a very high standard (weight sorting, CPM accuracy etc)
2) NOT offering it at some higher premium price point
3) Offering options that are materially different than what's already on the market...

I'd say any attention they got on these grounds is merited, because that's *exactly* what a company attempting to make inroads into a market arguably dominated by two main players needs to do. Do it "better", do it cheaper or at a similar price point, and offer alternatives. The 120 is a perfect alternative to the S300/PZ LZ, the 130 is a highler launching PX Rifle with a softer tip, and the 105/115/125 are DG alternatives in a wider variety of weight classes. They innovated exactly as much as was possible. 

Edited June 11, 2024 by Valtiel

[CTgamer]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

 

Yeah that's what I was going to say. Steel is steel, its options are limited within the expected weight range of a golf shaft, so if you're doing it:

1) To a very high standard (weight sorting, CPM accuracy etc)
2) NOT offering it at some higher premium price point
3) Offering options that are materially different than what's already on the market...

I'd say any attention they got on these grounds is merited, because that's *exactly* what a company attempting to make inroads into a market arguably dominated by two main players needs to do. Do it "better", do it cheaper or at a similar price point, and offer alternatives. The 120 is a perfect alternative to the S300/PZ LZ, the 130 is a highler launching PX Rifle if a softer tip, and the 105/115/125 are DG alternatives in a wider variety of weight classes. They innovated exactly as much as was possible. 

^this is spot on…beyond “better/faster/cheaper” and “finding a new product niche” there wasn’t really any option for Nippon to do something different and/or break into the market. In some ways, it’s remarkable they could do so *at all* given TT’s position (and strategy of merely acquiring companies in complementary iron shaft categories as opposed to incubating them themselves). Though I prefer to leave my day job out of my golf hobby 😂

[Thayneil]

11 hours ago, rsballer10 said:

But in terms of what makes a quality steel shaft - this is pretty much at the top of the list. It's what defines the dynamic gold line, and what ultimately created the tour issue DG line. What's nice about Nippon is they meet those tolerances at a lower price point than DG TI or PX or KBS. At least for me, the average Joe who pays MSRP for shafts.

I hear this sentiment a lot, however they are not carbon copies. The 120 has a similar EI profile to DG, but I don't think it's accomplished the same way. The step patterns are clearly different. Looks closer to an old Hogan apex shaft than a DG. Similar weight as well.

 

Modus 130 also is not the same as PX. I wouldn't consider the PX to have a softer tip section at all. I believe PX has a constant 2" tip section throughout the set, which is unusual.

I don't think the 105 and the $-taper are comparable at all. Not the same weight. This statement is just odd in general, as the $-taper is somehow stiff in the handle AND has too high of a bend point - which is a contradictory statement. There's also no such thing as a bend point.

 

At the end of the day, there's only so much you can do with steel. I think Nippon did a great job of pushing the boundaries of wall thicknesses/step patterns in the modus line.

 

Your title reads "Can we just be honest about Modus shafts". This is as honest as I can be about the Modus line.

 

Im always amazed that anybody involved with golf/ repair  or supply pays full.price.Golfworks used to give me trade prices but then raised the yearly amount required to qualify

 

Im.overseas and get good discounts off shafts grips etc without spending $$$

 

Wonder if the wrxs  could get together and open trade accounts with say Gw Tt kbs Golfpride etc?