Fitters: is it unwise to mix and match shafts?

[JD3]

Years ago I didn't really think twice about having a dissimilar bend profile in wedges, irons, fairways, driver, etc. Nowadays I'm borderline obsessive about it. For example, I am looking at a set of irons with either C-Taper or Modus 130, very different than the DG S200's in my wedges. Or should I be less concerned because they're at least in a comparable weight range, especially the 130's?

Edited June 10, 2024 by JD3

[Puttersaurus Rex]

Different horses for different courses.  Check out Bernhard Langer's bag for an example of different shafts being used.

[ShortGolfer]

My first bag was a mixed set and it definitely hurt my game.

 

I now have a carefully selected mix set of clubs that work well together.

 

Edited June 10, 2024 by ShortGolfer

[Pepperturbo]

2 hours ago, JD3 said:

Years ago I didn't really think twice about having a dissimilar bend profile in wedges, irons, fairways, driver, etc. Nowadays I'm borderline obsessive about it. For example, I am looking at a set of irons with either C-Taper or Modus 130, very different than the DG S200's in my wedges. Or should I be less concerned because they're at least in a comparable weight range, especially the 130's?

IME as long as the bend profiles are similar, fit your mechanics and similar SW, go for it.

 

Bend profiles in wood are mid-to high with stiff handles, irons are mid-to high with stiff handles, same with wedges; however weights progress from light in woods and long irons to mid in irons and heavier in wedges.  SW is same from Driver to 9i, D3, but more progressive in SW in PW, SW, and LW.

[phizzy30]

You don't need your iron shafts to match your wedge shafts, EI profile wise.  I have MMT in my irons and KBS Tour and 610 in my wedges.  MMT are more in line with DG while KBS Tour and 610 have softer tips with stiffer handles.  

[rollen]

Not a fitter, but I have C-Taper in my irons, Dynamic Gold in my 52°, DG Tour issue Spinner wedge in my 54°, and KBS 2.0 Hi-Rev in my 58°.  I would venture to guess you would not have an issue mixing them, providing that the weights and flexes aren’t dramatically different. 

[bcflyguy1]

Absolutely not a problem, and I say that as somebody who does have shafts that "match" in woods and irons (1K Black in woods, DG 120 in irons, DG in wedges).

 

For anecdotal example, I cannot use any "soft mid" type of shaft in my driver. However, in fairway woods I get good results. Not the best, but not complete trash like it is in driver.

Jon Rahm has a stiff mid Ventus Black 7x in his driver, but his fairways have the soft mid Tour AD DI in them.VERY different, but they give him what he's looking for.

Scotty Scheffler and Xander are two examples of similar profiles from top to bottom. All about what fits best.

[JD3]

8 minutes ago, bcflyguy1 said:

Absolutely not a problem, and I say that as somebody who does have shafts that "match" in woods and irons (1K Black in woods, DG 120 in irons, DG in wedges).

 

For anecdotal example, I cannot use any "soft mid" type of shaft in my driver. However, in fairway woods I get good results. Not the best, but not complete trash like it is in driver.

Jon Rahm has a stiff mid Ventus Black 7x in his driver, but his fairways have the soft mid Tour AD DI in them.VERY different, but they give him what he's looking for.

Scotty Scheffler and Xander are two examples of similar profiles from top to bottom. All about what fits best.

I agree with your driver and fairway setup, for years I've been going with lower launching driver and softer higher launching fairway. My concern now is iron shaft, I have no intention to swap wedges ...they are perfect for me. But the irons I'm will to tinker some.

[Valtiel]

Agreed with the above posts. IMO the only thing that is "unwise" is to ever think in absolutes about what should and shouldn't be done, especially as it related to something as subtle as shaft bend profiles.

Edited June 11, 2024 by Valtiel

[Nessism]

I've never heard of anyone trying to match bend profile throughout the bag.  Sounds like a silly quest.

[mizuno player]

I've done both. 

 

In the past I've played DG x100 from 4 iron through 58°. 

 

Currently have KBS Tour 130 x I'm 5  through PW. DG s400 in my  three wedges. 

 

It's whatever works in my opinion. 

[JD3]

15 minutes ago, Nessism said:

I've never heard of anyone trying to match bend profile throughout the bag.  Sounds like a silly quest.

I'm seeing it more and more these days, one reason I'm questioning deviating from a reasonably matched set. I.e. I don't see PX guys like Rory or Spieth using DG in their wedges.

[phizzy30]

1 hour ago, JD3 said:

I'm seeing it more and more these days, one reason I'm questioning deviating from a reasonably matched set. I.e. I don't see PX guys like Rory or Spieth using DG in their wedges.

Tom Kim plays PX in his irons and I'm almost certain he plays S400 in his wedges.  There's actually a number of guys on tour that do that. 

[ClayNotTon]

I think it’s as personal as any other equipment choice throughout the bag. For me, I get better numbers from KBS 610 in my wedges on trackman and at the practice area. Take it to the course and I get in my own head about it not matching irons and what that means for full shots vs partials. I am building a test wedge with the BGT RedZNE, as despite SWing to be where I want, I do wish for a heavier Axiom wedge shaft. I feel I have a lot more control over what equipment I use than I do my golf swing, for better or worse, so for me eliminating variables where I can is helpful. I love adjustable drivers, fairways, but unless I’m actively tuning I legit have to leave the adjustment wrench at home or I’ll be moving mid range session/round

[Stuart_G]

12 hours ago, JD3 said:

Years ago I didn't really think twice about having a dissimilar bend profile in wedges, irons, fairways, driver, etc. Nowadays I'm borderline obsessive about it. For example, I am looking at a set of irons with either C-Taper or Modus 130, very different than the DG S200's in my wedges. Or should I be less concerned because they're at least in a comparable weight range, especially the 130's?

 

The more new information and data comes out about the equipment (shafts and EI profiles in this particular case), the more that the common people will find ways to misuse and misinterpret that data.   It happened (and in some cases still happening) with torque and now it's happening with stiffness profiles.   Stiffness profiles are certainly a step up from the simple flex ratings - but they can still be easily mis-used.   A classic case of how a little information can be dangerous.

 

People put way too much stock in things like the shape of the profile.  Probably thanks to Russ and all those graphs with no actual numbers on them for the low cost subscription. 

 

The ONLY reason to be concerned is if actual real life problems arise when using or testing a shaft.  Period.

 

The only valid use of the stiffness profiles is to give us a relative comparison between two shafts.   Will shaft A feel stiffer or softer than shaft B?  And it can't even always tell us that (e.g. if the butt is stiffer but the tip is softer - different people will interpret that differently).    So it's really only useful in a limited context to help guide the fitter in the fitting process.   But most importantly, the stiffness profile does not (and never will) bypass the need for that fitting process and actual testing of the shaft.

 

And with wedges, FWIW, the shorter the club, the less the shaft stiffness really matters.   So for most ams, the only thing that really matters in the wedge shaft is the weight.

 

 

Edited June 11, 2024 by Stuart_G

[JD3]

7 hours ago, phizzy30 said:

Tom Kim plays PX in his irons and I'm almost certain he plays S400 in his wedges.  There's actually a number of guys on tour that do that. 

From the WITBs Ive seen for Kim, he has PX irons and TT X100 wedges. Imo these aren't that far off in profiles, and arguably complementary if one wants a touch less active tip, and touch more smooth handle in wedges, while maintaining the beefy mid section.

[rsballer10]

2 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

The more new information and data comes out about the equipment (shafts and EI profiles in this particular case), the more that the common people will find ways to misuse and misinterpret that data.   It happened (and in some cases still happening) with torque and now it's happening with stiffness profiles.   Stiffness profiles are certainly a step up from the simple flex ratings - but they can still be easily mis-used.   A classic case of how a little information can be dangerous.

 

People put way too much stock in things like the shape of the profile.  Probably thanks to Russ and all those graphs with no actual numbers on them for the low cost subscription. 

 

The ONLY reason to be concerned is if actual real life problems arise when using or testing a shaft.  Period.

 

The only valid use of the stiffness profiles is to give us a relative comparison between two shafts.   Will shaft A feel stiffer or softer than shaft B?  And it can't even always tell us that (e.g. if the butt is stiffer but the tip is softer - different people will interpret that differently).    So it's really only useful in a limited context to help guide the fitter in the fitting process.   But most importantly, the stiffness profile does not (and never will) bypass the need for that fitting process and actual testing of the shaft.

 

And with wedges, FWIW, the shorter the club, the less the shaft stiffness really matters.   So for most ams, the only thing that really matters in the wedge shaft is the weight.

 

 

Stuart - I agree with you. I don't want to say EI doesn't matter, but I think people equate similar EI curves with those shafts being "the same" or that they will play similar. I don't think that's the case. I figured I would post the definition of what an EI measurement actually is for reference:

 

https://www.golfshaftreviews.info/ei/

 The term, EI is engineering short hand for E= Modulus of Elasticity and I = Area Moment of Inertia. Or, more simply, the elasticity of the shaft material and the thickness of the cross section of the shaft. The combination of these combine into the stiffness of the shaft at any point on the shaft. If the walls are thicker that section the shaft is stiffer.  If the graphite strands are running from butt to tip the stiffness they give to the shaft is more than if they are angled to control torque.

 

There is a MASSIVE assumption here. "If the walls are thicker, that section the shaft is stiffer" is only true if the shaft OD is the same from section to section. Which leads me to the point I'm trying to make : the same EI value can be created by manipulating different variables. A shaft can become stiffer through wall thickness, shaft diameter, or changing the material (the E in EI). While the EI could be the same for 2 shafts - HOW they achieve the profile/section could be vastly different, and vastly change the feel of the shaft.

 

I would like to submit the Modus 120S/X vs DGS300R/S as an example. EI profiles are very similar, but there are people that swear they are different. And they are probably right.

[phizzy30]

2 hours ago, JD3 said:

From the WITBs Ive seen for Kim, he has PX irons and TT X100 wedges. Imo these aren't that far off in profiles, and arguably complementary if one wants a touch less active tip, and touch more smooth handle in wedges, while maintaining the beefy mid section.

While PX and X100 share very stiff tips, X100 has a softer handle which make them not feel as harsh as PX, IMO.  I think maybe that's what Tom's looking for. 

Edited June 11, 2024 by phizzy30

[GoGoErky]

23 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

While PX and X100 share very stiff tips, X100 has a softer handle which make them not feel as harsh as PX, IMO.  I think maybe that's what Tom's looking for. 

That’s been my experience with these shafts

[Stuart_G]

While agree with your first point, the second part needs a little correction.

 

6 hours ago, rsballer10 said:

There is a MASSIVE assumption here. "If the walls are thicker, that section the shaft is stiffer" is only true if the shaft OD is the same from section to section

 

It's not really an assumption - it's just one example of how the EI values can be manipulated.

 

The EI value for any point in the shaft is the bottom line for how the shaft will behave (and feel for that matter) at that point when something tries to bend it.   So how the EI value is designed or obtained actually doesn't matter - at least to the longitudinal loading.   How it might change other things like the torsional stiffness and response is a different question that needs to look at different values.  

 

Think of it akin to the spring constant of a coiled spring.   Lots of ways to manipulate the spring constant but when it comes time to determine how much compression happens for a given force, all you need to know is the value of the spring constant, not how they managed it.   In fact, you can sort of look at the EI values as a kind of spring constant for a leaf spring - (which isn't implying constant over the length of the structure).

 

I think the bigger problem is that most people look at and see graphs without numbers and try to compare them.  For accurate assessment the actual values are critical.   You can't just look at the shape of the curve and make any kind of accurate assessment of how the shaft will feel.   And even if the values are known,  as long as there are some differences to the values, it's still not easy to predict how the feel will change for any given individual.   Some can make an educated case on how the feel might change - but you still have to get the shaft in your hands and put a full swing on it to confirm that guess.   There are situations where even small changes to the EI profile could potentially result in larger changes to the feel.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2024 by Stuart_G

[rsballer10]

16 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

The EI value for any point in the shaft is the bottom line for how the shaft will behave (and feel for that matter)

 

Has anyone proven that equal EI values will feel the same? Can that be proven?

 

 

Edited June 12, 2024 by rsballer10

[Stuart_G]

39 minutes ago, rsballer10 said:

Has anyone proven that equal EI values will feel the same? Can that be proven?

 

If your asking about just the feel limited to the influence of the longitudinal stiffness (as opposed to torsional stiffness) I don't see why anyone would bother.   That's like taking the effort to prove that a 120 grams is going to feel heavier than 60 grams - or that two items that are both 60 grams will feel equally heavy.    It certainly has been proven that how the shaft will actually bend under a given force is fully defined by the EI values.

Edited June 12, 2024 by Stuart_G

[JD3]

33 minutes ago, rsballer10 said:

 

Has anyone proven that equal EI values will feel the same? Can that be proven?

 

 

I haven't seen exact same values but similar always seem similar to me. Of course weight also plays a significant part of feel. Seems like top fitters these days like Ian (formerly TXG) gets that first for shafts, and bounce/sole for heads. 

[phizzy30]

3 hours ago, rsballer10 said:

 

Has anyone proven that equal EI values will feel the same? Can that be proven?

 

 

It won't always feel the same.  For example the Tour Z RPG Gold it pretty smooth for a tip and handle stiff shaft with a slight dropoff in stiffness in the mid.  TR Black has the same EI profile and has some feel to it but not nearly as smooth as the RPG.  Then you have Smoke Green Hulk which is the same profile which feels like rebar.  They only things they share in common is EI profile and how linear they feel. 

Edited June 12, 2024 by phizzy30

[Stuart_G]

28 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

It won't always feel the same.  For example the Tour Z RPG Gold it pretty smooth for a tip and handle stiff shaft with a slight dropoff in stiffness in the mid.  TR Black has the same EI profile and has some feel to it but not nearly as smooth as the RPG.  Then you have Smoke Green Hulk which is the same profile which feels like rebar.  They only things they share in common is EI profile and how linear they feel. 

 

I'll bet if you plot the two EI profiles on the same graph they wont really be the same (completely coincedent) over the full length of the shaft.  There will be some difference in values. 

 

Edited June 12, 2024 by Stuart_G

[phizzy30]

14 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

I'll bet if you plot the two EI profiles on the same graph they wont really be the same (completely coincedent) over the full length of the shaft.  There will be some difference in values. 

 

Probably not exactly the same but similar. 

[Stuart_G]

2 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Probably not exactly the same but similar. 

 

Any difference can potentially result in a change in feel.    The point being questioned by @rsballer10 is if the feel can be different even if the EI profiles are exactly the same.

 

Anecdotally Tom Wishon used to post about how much of a change in the profiles needed to be different to be noticeable - and that amount varied depending on the which measurement was used.  But that was with respect to his DB and the frequency numbers - so I don't think that information would be useful with direct EI values.

Edited June 12, 2024 by Stuart_G

[phizzy30]

Just now, Stuart_G said:

 

Any difference can potentially result in a change in feel.    The point being questioned by @rsballer10 is if the feel can be different even if the EI profiles are exactly the same.

You and I know that two shafts that have the exact same EI profile can feel different from the different materials used. 

[Stuart_G]

1 minute ago, phizzy30 said:

You and I know that two shafts that have the exact same EI profile can feel different from the different materials used. 

 

Sorry, I don't know that and I've never seen any proper data to support that.    And it would be very difficult to test - considering there can be measurable differences in EI values between two different shafts of the exact same model, weight, and flex.   So finding two shafts that had the exact same EI values but with different construction or materials would pretty much be impossible.

 

Of course, the manufacturing variations alone in shafts kind of make it a pointless question in a practical context.   So it's really only a discussion that can occur in the theoretical realm.

[JD3]

Ok so what's the takeaway here? I need to make a decision soon on a good deal of iron set with PX 6/6.5. would that work with my S200 wedge shafts and Axiom 105 3 iron?