Shaft Torque vs Grip Torque

[Yuck]

I historically have used Standard Size Crossline Cords built up a several wraps.  I recently tried some  mid-sized GP MC +4’s.  Between the mid size and all the Rubber under the lower hand, it felt pretty mushy compared to what I am used to.  The hands did not slip on the grip, but it felt like the club could torque open / closed easier than it could with a very firm grip compound.

 

I know people can get particular on how much torque resistance a shaft has, but it seems to me, some of these mushy grips I tried,  or even worse, Winn “marshmallows”, might torque enough to offset the resistance a shaft might have.  Anyone ever try to measure this?  Put a club in a vice on the grip, and twist the head while measuring torque.  See if there is a difference with different grips.  Then see how much difference in just different shafts with identical grips.  I think it is possible the variance in the grips is enough to overwhelm variance in the shafts.

[Pepperturbo]

Soft feeling grip doesn't necessary increase torque affecting face alignment.  I've tried out softer grips on testing irons, most have some sort of inner stabilizer, like CP2 Pro grips.  Played them on woods and wedges for the longest time.  I still have them on other iron sets, and they feel great; soft but not squishy soft.  They use a 2.5 inner control core stabilizer to eliminate torque.  The larger lower portion like on my MCC Plus4 and wraps, is to eliminate excessive grip pressure.

[Glock917]

 

I always believed different material and firmness of grips change the torque and frequency of the shaft. I been using jumbomax zen lite grip on my driver only. When I got to an all rubber grip like when trying out a different shaft, it feels dramatically softer and whippier. I always thought it was just a feel vs real thing until I saw this to confirm I aint the only one. 

[Wardonation]

23 minutes ago, Glock917 said:

 

I always believed different material and firmness of grips change the torque and frequency of the shaft. I been using jumbomax zen lite grip on my driver only. When I got to an all rubber grip like when trying out a different shaft, it feels dramatically softer and whippier. I always thought it was just a feel vs real thing until I saw this to confirm I aint the only one. 

This is amazing wow... 

Edited June 12, 2024 by Wardonation

[Wardonation]

This video needs it own thread...

[cw1209]

I think it's reasonable to assume that cord grips will be lower torque than non-cord. Some commentary from Iomic on grip torque

 

https://www.iomicusa.com/the-technology

 

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, Yuck said:

I historically have used Standard Size Crossline Cords built up a several wraps.  I recently tried some  mid-sized GP MC +4’s.  Between the mid size and all the Rubber under the lower hand, it felt pretty mushy compared to what I am used to.  The hands did not slip on the grip, but it felt like the club could torque open / closed easier than it could with a very firm grip compound.

 

Are you talking about:

1) how the face might rotate at impact as a result of an off center hit?

2) Or about the ability of the individual to control the face as they rotate the club via the grips and as the head moves into impact?

 

For 1) the torsional stiffness of the shaft doesn't really matter when it comes to the resulting ball flight.  The ball is long gone off the face before any rotation of the face can be restrained by the torsional stiffness of the shaft.   So the only effect it will have is on how the impact felt to the player.

 

For 2) the vast majority of golfers - especially am's - don't really apply enough torque to the club for this to be an issue.  The rare few that do will likely stay away from grips that would be problematic just because of the feel - the same way they would stay away from certain shafts for the same reason.

 

 

35 minutes ago, Wardonation said:

This video needs it own thread...

 

Not really.   It's just someone who doesn't understand that the frequency measurement is pointless with a grip on - or really meaningless in the context of shaft stiffness.  The grip doesn't change the stiffness of the shaft, it just corrupts and invalidates the measurement technique.

Edited June 12, 2024 by Stuart_G

[Glock917]

2 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

It's just someone who doesn't understand that the frequency measurement is pointless with a grip on - or really meaningless in the context of shaft stiffness.  The grip doesn't change the stiffness of the shaft, it just corrupts and invalidates the measurement technique.

Was it incorrectly used? Most definitely and the numbers it put out can definitely be in question. The grip doesnt change the properties of the shaft because that is fixed but it is taking it as a whole system with the grip and within that system there is noticeable difference in torque with different material grips.

He was just using the tools he already had on hand to put in question to buyers of a possible factor they should consider before buying new grips. It was not Bill Nye worthy but got the point across.  

[dmeeksDC]

4 hours ago, cw1209 said:

I think it's reasonable to assume that cord grips will be lower torque than non-cord. Some commentary from Iomic on grip torque

 

https://www.iomicusa.com/the-technology

 

This is interesting analysis. They’re saying on an open-face push the Iomic elastomer grips will reduce the amount of the push by almost 13 yards vs higher torque grips. 

[scotty_2987]

This is probably why I’ve always hated soft squishy grips. I always gravitate back to firmer grips because I feel like I have more control. 

[Stuart_G]

On 6/12/2024 at 5:54 PM, Glock917 said:

Was it incorrectly used? Most definitely and the numbers it put out can definitely be in question. The grip doesnt change the properties of the shaft because that is fixed but it is taking it as a whole system with the grip

 

Yes, it  really was used incorrectly, and no it was not because it was "taking at as a whole system."   When it comes to butt frequency, just changing the size of the clamp or the amount of clamp pressure can get you a change in the frequency reading.   So it's very easy to get a change in value that has nothing to do with any change to what you are actually trying to measure.

 

The problem is that the natural resonance frequency of a beam only has a very specific meaning and only in a very specific context.   A difference in readings is only meaningful if many assumptions about the context are true.   If you change the context (like adding the grip or changing something about the clamp or even changing where on the shaft the clamp is placed - or amount of weight at the tip of the shat), a change in value is no longer representative of any change to the system as a whole like it was when used without the grip.    So testing with the grip on is completely pointless and his results are not really telling us anything meaningful about the "whole system".

 

 

On 6/12/2024 at 5:54 PM, Glock917 said:

there is noticeable difference in torque with different material grips.

 

Sorry but the butt frequency is purely a means for testing longitudinal stiffness  (and a very limited one at that) - it has nothing to do with torsional stiffness.  That's a different aspect to the question I already commented on separately.

 

I mean if you want to take it too extremes you could even say the flesh in the hands and fingers can add torque.  It is true based on the definition of how torque is measured - but that doesn't mean it's any more meaningful or in any way influential on the ball flight.

 

There is no question that different grips can make the club feel different - in both objective and subjective ways.   So there is nothing new there.   But the subjective ways are the ones that will have any significant effect on the end results for the vast majority of golfers.

 

Edited June 14, 2024 by Stuart_G

[Stuart_G]

11 hours ago, dmeeksDC said:

This is interesting analysis. They’re saying on an open-face push the Iomic elastomer grips will reduce the amount of the push by almost 13 yards vs higher torque grips. 

 

"Assuming that these torques were created by opening the club face to the right during impact,"

 

That's really not a very well thought out assumption.   It can be shown mathematically (in theory at least) that shaft torque (even if you include the grip) will not have any significant influence on what the head does at impact - at least while the ball is still in contact with the face.  And therefore will not have any significant influence on what the ball does as a result of that impact.

 

Again that's in theory.  I wish they had done a better job documenting the testing and measuring methodology and raw data.   I tend to be skeptical of such tests w/o such proper documentation.  It's very easy to mis-interpete data and results and unbiased pear review of the test is generally considered mandatory to properly validate the results of such tests.   But it does still at least make one think.

 

I'm still of the opinion that the only real potential one needs to really worry about is how the grip might effect the ability of the player to control the face as they release the club and deliver the head into impact.   And I've not yet seen any data to substantiate that the torsional forces involved (applied by the hands to the club) are really large enough for that to be an issue in most cases.    Even if it were, it would be a very consistent torsional deflection - and therefor something that could be compensated for in the swing - likely even without the player being conscious of it.  But you never know.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2024 by Stuart_G

[Glock917]

5 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

I mean if you want to take it too extremes you could even say the flesh in the hands and fingers can add torque.  It is true based on the definition of how torque is measured - but that doesn't mean it's any more meaningful or in any way influential on the ball flight.

 

This is all anecdotal to the truest sense. To have it to say it affect flight is pretty subjective and really down to individual perception to have noticeable impact deficiencies. 

 

Yes, I am aware of butt frequency is longitudinal and has little to no value to torsional. This is not an elaborate scientific experiment nor it should be deemed as one. I am not expecting him to provide his raw data, equipment used, and procedural methodology of what he did and how he did it. Sometimes you just listen to people in whatever industry and give their take on it. He's a club builder that has put out a lot of instructional content and some of his stuff I learned tips from and some were useless and questionable. He is not trying to a Tutelman nor wanting to be. Just take it for what it is and move on. 

 

Oh the flesh on your hands absolutely add torque lol but that is as anecdotal as you can get. 

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, Glock917 said:

This is all anecdotal to the truest sense. To have it to say it affect flight is pretty subjective and really down to individual perception to have noticeable impact deficiencies.

 

Sorry I'm not sure exactly what you're referencing as anecdotal.

 

The fact that the grip or even hands effects the torque is not anecdotal - it's  based on objective measurements.

 

The calculations I referenced on the direct effect of torque on the ball flight is based on scientific methods and known and proven concepts.   So that's not anecdotal either.   It's just theoretical as opposed to proven.

 

Now I agree 100% that the subjective effects of different feels on the ball flight from different grips is certainly largely anecdotal - although not necessarily purely.   You might be surprised at what proper research papers have been written about in terms of the equipment effects on the swing and ball flight results.

 

 

1 hour ago, Glock917 said:

This is not an elaborate scientific experiment nor it should be deemed as one.

 

 

I assume you're talking about the video content and not this discussion or the Iomic test?

 

 

1 hour ago, Glock917 said:

I am not expecting him to provide his raw data, equipment used, and procedural methodology of what he did and how he did it.

 

Neither do I.   The question of data and methods didn't have anything to do with the video.  That was with respect to the Iomic link and their "test results" they were pushing.  That's why it was in a completely different response.

 

I'm well aware that most youtube watchers don't have the patience for any of that and would be turned off by it.   It wouldn't be smart business to do that in a video.

 

But I do expect him to know (or at least do the behind the scenes research to learn) how to properly use the equipment and tools he uses when he tries to "teach" or make a point.  And I'm not talking anything deep as far as undstanding the frequency meter.  Just the basics on how to use it correctly.    And when someone tries to pass on that mis-information here I don't see any reason why I shouldn't say something.   And all I did was make a simple comment about it.   You're the one that wanted to continue the discussion and go into more detail.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2024 by Stuart_G

[Ri_Redneck]

I LOL'd at the video. As Stuart mentioned, changing the clamp pressure on a bare shaft will give different numbers. That guy should be flogged for making that video. He really mislead everyone who has ever seen it.

 

Softer grip means insecure clamping, so the clamp should have been cranked down tighter (same force needed to tighten for each club) and the numbers would be closer. 25 lbs of pressure for each club would have sunk the clamp deeper into the soft grip for a more secure hold.

 

BT

Edited June 13, 2024 by Ri_Redneck

[predison]

I never thought I’d get in this deep…feeling like I should rip off all of my tour velvets now

[Howard_Jones]

On 6/12/2024 at 8:42 PM, Glock917 said:

 

I always believed different material and firmness of grips change the torque and frequency of the shaft. I been using jumbomax zen lite grip on my driver only. When I got to an all rubber grip like when trying out a different shaft, it feels dramatically softer and whippier. I always thought it was just a feel vs real thing until I saw this to confirm I aint the only one. 

Adam is correct, but its amazing he never heard about it before.
The grips ability to dampen CPM vary A LOT, and is the reason for why we CANT judge THE SHAFT if grips are on, since we hardly ever knows how much THIS grip model dampen return value, and it even vary from grip to grip of the same model and size.
 
It can be more than 20 cpm difference among grip models of the same size, and if we include over size all the way to Jumbo.....we go blind IF the purpose was to judge the shaft and butt CPM.
 
So this aint news at all, it should not be news to Adam either, he must have forgot why we DONT check flex with grips on to judge shaft flex, so what we can use it for, is to judge how much the actual grip dampens vibration and CPM from one grip model to another, thats the whole idea with that clamp.

Im convinced i have been writing about it here....ill check,.

[Howard_Jones]

Lots of info on the subject for those who seeks it, like this post from 2013
I almost forgot, but since SHORE value on grips vary (soft or firm rubber), even correct clamp pressure is close to impossible, we will at least need a TQ wrench, but still we will have issues to judge dampening correct, but it is right that firm grips will return a higher CPM value than a softer grip does, and that should not be a surprise for anyone.