Shallow chipping without getting stuck?

[hardcaliber]

Hi everyone. I’m working on getting away from the old school hinge and hold chip shot and trying to get a wider shallower path. A problem I keep having is that the wide shallow path feels like I have to get the club much more inside and around the body, leading to a lot of thin skulled shots. Maybe I just need to get used to it. Is it true that a shallow chipping stroke has to arc around the body more or am I thinking about it the wrong way? 

[Socrates]

 

[JAMH03]

@Socrates I'm really trying to figure out my chipping, I'm a big fan of Padraig also Ridyard, Greeves, Pelz, Utley, Day, Woods and Short game Chef Parker is there a reason you shared this video especially?

 

 

[Socrates]

11 hours ago, JAMH03 said:

@Socrates I'm really trying to figure out my chipping, I'm a big fan of Padraig also Ridyard, Greeves, Pelz, Utley, Day, Woods and Short game Chef Parker is there a reason you shared this video especially?

 

 

It's a good video and he doesn't use the hit and hold method.   A much more modern approach using the bounce.  There is a Mike Malaska video out that is also very good, but essentially the same ideas. 

[Duffer Mark]

How much does chipping style matter with a tight lie? I often have a chip that's to an elevated green with minimal grass and hard ground. If I don't hit the ball just right, the hard ground just bounces the club and causes a thin hit.

[Pepperturbo]

10 minutes ago, Duffer Mark said:

How much does chipping style matter with a tight lie? I often have a chip that's to an elevated green with minimal grass and hard ground. If I don't hit the ball just right, the hard ground just bounces the club and causes a thin hit.

I don't think there's a set number for that.  As Paddy says in the above video, how you physically address the ball and ball position are crucial.  When chipping, if you're at all falling back to your right side, that contributes to bladed /thin shots.  Elevated green often suggests less lofted club.  I face tight lies and firm turf quite often, and use T-58.4 or maybe F52.12.  In some cases, even open face PW.

 

Which club depends on green conditions and where the pin is located?  To me, turf condition under the ball is important but how you address the ball takes that into account.  Another consideration is if your misses are thin, you may be using too much bounce and/OR you're not steady at impact.

[rkodavey]

3 hours ago, Socrates said:

It's a good video and he doesn't use the hit and hold method.   A much more modern approach using the bounce.  There is a Mike Malaska video out that is also very good, but essentially the same ideas. 

Actually, if you watch the video, he specifically says not to use the bounce. His exact quote is, "The bounce saves you when you make a bad swing. Do not try and use the bounce. Try not to use the bounce." 

[Socrates]

1 hour ago, rkodavey said:

Actually, if you watch the video, he specifically says not to use the bounce. His exact quote is, "The bounce saves you when you make a bad swing. Do not try and use the bounce. Try not to use the bounce." 

And if you are watching, he is using the bounce of the wedge on every shot.  There is no digging.  No divot.  No hit and hold.  He releases through the chip/pitch.  He just wants to hit it clean - ball first, but he is definitely using the bounce.  And if he makes a bad swing, the bounce saves him.

[slytown]

I've been a good chipper/pitcher since I was 12. I've always had a fairly shallow entry. For me, it is still a shoulder movement, but a flatter one. Like a putt, you want chips and pitches to only involve shoulder turn. For longer pitches, yes you can add some lift and wrist hinge, but you should only think of short shots as bottom of the arc, shoulder movements. Therefore, if you want a shallower approach, turn flatter. If you want to get steep on it, turn steeper. I never try to get the wrists active to get the club shallow. I just turn flatter. Flicking the club on a short shot is a recipe for thins/blades.

Edited June 26, 2024 by slytown

[slytown]

5 hours ago, Duffer Mark said:

How much does chipping style matter with a tight lie? I often have a chip that's to an elevated green with minimal grass and hard ground. If I don't hit the ball just right, the hard ground just bounces the club and causes a thin hit.

 

Tight lies and sticky grass like bermuda, you want to be shallower. If the ball is ever sitting down, you wanna be steep and essentially use the bounce.

[TheDeanAbides]

15 hours ago, Duffer Mark said:

How much does chipping style matter with a tight lie? I often have a chip that's to an elevated green with minimal grass and hard ground. If I don't hit the ball just right, the hard ground just bounces the club and causes a thin hit.

Get Monte’s UTB 2.0. He shows using the bounce off a path. 

[dvq9654]

Non-scientific answer, but if you are getting yours hands "inside" or "behind" you while chipping, you are doing something wrong. Getting more shallow on a chip does not mean the club has to come from way inside, if anything I think that sounds like a recipe for disaster. Subtle changes in set up and approach to the ball can make a huge difference and your stroke shouldn't change massively no matter the angle of attack. 
 

I would watch some videos online by people who are trusted on this forum, like Padraig or Monte, to make sure you have a good framework and work towards that 

[gators78]

I’ve been on the chipping fix journey for a while now, I’m more a believer that the whole issue is about controlling arc depth. I’ve tried shallow and still will fat shots because the arc is way too far below into the ground. I think if you get that right, it makes more sense how you could go back and forth between Stricker shallow vs. Hovland steep.

 

I also think that the whole shallow vs. steep is a bit of a guess unless you have a launch monitor measuring the swing. Mayo will post videos of guys 10-12*+ down and don’t take a divot, you’d think oh that’s shallow, or conversely someone with a Jason Day move is actually 7-8* down, which isn’t very shallow. 

[rsballer10]

35 minutes ago, gators78 said:

I’ve been on the chipping fix journey for a while now, I’m more a believer that the whole issue is about controlling arc depth. I’ve tried shallow and still will fat shots because the arc is way too far below into the ground. I think if you get that right, it makes more sense how you could go back and forth between Stricker shallow vs. Hovland steep.

 

I also think that the whole shallow vs. steep is a bit of a guess unless you have a launch monitor measuring the swing. Mayo will post videos of guys 10-12*+ down and don’t take a divot, you’d think oh that’s shallow, or conversely someone with a Jason Day move is actually 7-8* down, which isn’t very shallow. 

I agree. I think people are equating turf interaction with AoA, which they are not the same. They are also equating "using the bounce" and "shallow" when these are two separate things as well.

 

The misinterpretation of shallow chipping causes people to hang back, flip, expose the leading edge, fats, skulls.

 

Control the low point, deliver positive bounce into the ball. It can be done with a square, slightly open, or very open club face. Contrary to what golf influencers say, using the bounce has been taught since at least the 1990s. I'm a big fan of it.

 

Shallow chipping is a new phenomenon, and I don't think it's either useful or correct. I'd like to see the LM numbers to validate shallow AoA.

 

[Shilgy]

On 6/26/2024 at 10:27 AM, Pepperturbo said:

I don't think there's a set number for that.  As Paddy says in the above video, how you physically address the ball and ball position are crucial.  When chipping, if you're at all falling back to your right side, that contributes to bladed /thin shots.  Elevated green often suggests less lofted club.  I face tight lies and firm turf quite often, and use T-58.4 or maybe F52.12.  In some cases, even open face PW.

 

Which club depends on green conditions and where the pin is located?  To me, turf condition under the ball is important but how you address the ball takes that into account.  Another consideration is if your misses are thin, you may be using too much bounce and/OR you're not steady at impact.

Why would you want to use a “less lofted club” to elevated greens?  The ball is already coming in flatter than normal due to the elevation change.

 

Please explain your rationale.  Thanks!

[Socrates]

11 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Why would you want to use a “less lofted club” to elevated greens?  The ball is already coming in flatter than normal due to the elevation change.

 

Please explain your rationale.  Thanks!

We already know that the most spin on short shots occurs with a club loft of about 45°.  So you make decisions (as he said) about lie, conditions and pin location.  Sometimes hitting something with more spin is better than solely relying on the loft to do the job.  If you can do it, a low - higher spinning shot that checks up, might be better.

[TheDeanAbides]

1 minute ago, Socrates said:

We already know that the most spin on short shots occurs with a club loft of about 45°.  So you make decisions (as he said) about lie, conditions and pin location.  Sometimes hitting something with more spin is better than solely relying on the loft to do the job.  If you can do it, a low - higher spinning shot that checks up, might be better.

I'm always looking for the lowest lofted club I can use for the shot in hand. I expect to hole everything around the green (obviously I don't), and part of this is seeing the ball rolling as soon as possible. 

[Pepperturbo]

16 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Why would you want to use a “less lofted club” to elevated greens?  The ball is already coming in flatter than normal due to the elevation change.

 

Please explain your rationale.  Thanks!

I face plenty of courses with elevated greens and course elevation are commonplace. 

 

All depends on the grain direction under the ball, (uphill lie grain will be into the ball) green speed and undulations to cover to the pin.  Presuming the pin is in the middle, using 58, on an uphill lie, I'd have to hit the ball harder, knowing the ball will hit and stop, greater chance of coming up short.  Whereas using a 52, I can use the same swing, less possibility of error, and get more distance.  All I have to do is open the face a tad for added stopping spin.  Also, on an uphill lie, my 52' trajectory won't be as high as 58.  

 

PS, I don't approach a shot with a club bias in mind.  I look for options and select the club that's least likely to error.  In other words, unless I NEED to be aggressive, I pick what works for the conditions.

Edited June 28, 2024 by Pepperturbo

[GoGoErky]

5 hours ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I'm always looking for the lowest lofted club I can use for the shot in hand. I expect to hole everything around the green (obviously I don't), and part of this is seeing the ball rolling as soon as possible. 

Same

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, Pepperturbo said:

I face plenty of courses with elevated greens and course elevation are commonplace. 

 

All depends on the grain direction under the ball, (uphill lie grain will be into the ball) green speed and undulations to cover to the pin.  Presuming the pin is in the middle, using 58, on an uphill lie, I'd have to hit the ball harder, knowing the ball will hit and stop, greater chance of coming up short.  Whereas using a 52, I can use the same swing, less possibility of error, and get more distance.  All I have to do is open the face a tad for added stopping spin.  Also, on an uphill lie, my 52' trajectory won't be as high as 58.  

 

PS, I don't approach a shot with a club bias in mind.  I look for options and select the club that's least likely to error.  In other words, unless I NEED to be aggressive, I pick what works for the conditions.

In the post I replied to it has only stated “elevated green” not uphill lie. But i certainly agree with the uphill lie logic. If flat lies which I referred to it’s a different story.

Edited June 28, 2024 by Shilgy

[Pepperturbo]

27 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

In the post I replied to it has only stated “elevated green” not uphill lie. But i certainly agree with the uphill lie logic. If flat lies which I referred to ours a different story.

I approach the ball the same way on flat lie to elevated or crowned greens, lie, green and pin are key for me.  I am not one to always fly the ball at the pin., all conditions have to be right for that choice.  

 

Most of the time I want the ball on the surface running like a putt to the pin, which is more difficult with 58 because of spin.  The speed of the green is a determining factor.  If my ball is, say, 20yds off, the greens are 11+ stimp, depending on what's behind the pin, front or middle, I am more likely to pull 58. 

 

I am playing a tight lie course this weekend where they have large, slightly elevated greens, highly undulated, and they run around 11-12.  They tend to have pins, front, middle, back, back, middle, front, etc.  Depending on how far I am off the green, I will be using 52 to get to the back pin, 52 or 58 to the middle, and 58 to a front pin.  The other factor this weekend there's a $$$ game.   I am the low player, so there are times I will be very aggressive, and other hole's dossal as a puppy. 🐕

Edited June 28, 2024 by Pepperturbo