Is a pull actually a pull?

[Deadaimz]

My thoughts of a pull for the longest time was that I came way ott with a slightly shut face. Come to find out though, I'm mostly in to out but with a shut face which is the major culprit of the "long left pull". Having said that is that actually a pull  even though im way in to out with my path?  I feel like a pull should be out to in with a shut face.

[Valtiel]

What you feel like is most people's intuitive understanding of a pull, yes. That is what *feels* like "pull" from a swing standpoint. What you discovered though is the murkier reality that a pull is really, for a righty, anything that starts and stays left of where you were aiming, and this can happen BOTH from the more traditional OTT "swinging left" position as well as the overly inside and shut position. 

Where it gets murkier still is when the horizontal gear effect potential of woods comes in to play. You could hypothetically be 10* from the inside, have a face 5* shut to that path, but hit it out of the heel and get a weird straight "pull" from that matchup. The heel strike gear effect cancels out the effect of the shut face, and the bulge and roll starts the ball further left. The point of all that is, if you're judging things based on woods/drivers, you have to be very careful to account for strike location and it's impact in the ball flight. And on the opposite side of the spectrum, high lofted clubs that are difficult to curve will similarly produce more "pull" and less "hook" when you present those inside/shut impact conditions. 

[Deadaimz]

With my in to out tendency, 5-10°s, I hit it best when my face is slightly open to the path 1-3°s. That combination creates a nice push draw that comes back to the target or stays just right of target but it doesn't go hard left. I do notice when I do hit an equal path and face combo my balls still tend to draw. I'm guessing that's the -AOA? The monitor I use the have aoa or other metrics the tms have.

[ShortGolfer]

I only use a pull to describe a ball that goes straight and lands to the left and past my intended target.

On my home course there is a  wooded ProV1x collection area for pulls by visiting golfers!

I don't think any of the regulars play Pro V1s or Pro V1xs!

[SNIPERBBB]

If it starts left of your target line. its a pull.

[KMeloney]

If you start it left and it just stays there (and doesn’t turn more left), then I’m thinking you may not be as inside-out as you think on those particular swings. 

[iacas]

32 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

If you start it left and it just stays there (and doesn’t turn more left), then I’m thinking you may not be as inside-out as you think on those particular swings. 

 

Exactly. You'd be pull-drawing or pull-hooking it if you were swinging right with a left start line.

 

A "pull" (without "fade" or "draw" or a curve to it) is a path left and a face that matches it, assuming no gear effect.

[Chunkitgood]

As I understand it, a shot that is in to out with a shut (with respect to a tangent to the curve on which the club head is traveling at the moment of impact, roughly speaking) have should curve left.

 

I was taught years ago that the club head path that matters is relative to the body as a frame of reference.  Launch monitors tell people their path is in or out I understand with respect to some line perpendicular to how the machine is set up, which will not in most cases be the same as the golfer’s body lines.  To put it another way you could be in to out with respect to the machine but still out to in  with respect to your body if you are lined up right.

 

And your clubs could be too upright.

 

The so-called new ball flight rules do seem to be that club face direction is the main determination of starting direction.  The fact that the “old” ball flight rules persisted and guided you own perceptions for example is remarkable in that the “new” rules were well known 60 years ago.  Misconceptions are not unknown in the golf teaching area.  I wonder whether monitors are engendering another generation of them?

[Deadaimz]

2 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

As I understand it, a shot that is in to out with a shut (with respect to a tangent to the curve on which the club head is traveling at the moment of impact, roughly speaking) have should curve left.

 

I was taught years ago that the club head path that matters is relative to the body as a frame of reference.  Launch monitors tell people their path is in or out I understand with respect to some line perpendicular to how the machine is set up, which will not in most cases be the same as the golfer’s body lines.  To put it another way you could be in to out with respect to the machine but still out to in  with respect to your body if you are lined up right.

 

And your clubs could be too upright.

 

The so-called new ball flight rules do seem to be that club face direction is the main determination of starting direction.  The fact that the “old” ball flight rules persisted and guided you own perceptions for example is remarkable in that the “new” rules were well known 60 years ago.  Misconceptions are not unknown in the golf teaching area.  I wonder whether monitors are engendering another generation of them?

My buddy plays with a very closed stance and he still manages to swing in to out. I know my tendencies were to be closed due to not wanting to go left. I've worked hard on stance but do still prefer a slightly closed stance. I feel comfortable with the measurements of the machine relative to its target line (center of screen). It rarely gets me going out to in. I have to try very hard to go in to out and sometimes feeling that neutralizes my in to out to a more zero out path to face. All I know is old habits are tough to get rid of . I struggled with ott and the dreaded slice for years when I first started playing. Then I finally did the opposite extreme and started struggling with hooks. Now I still struggle with left but I'm getting more consistent the more I learn. 

[betarhoalphadelta]

13 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

 

I was taught years ago that the club head path that matters is relative to the body as a frame of reference.  Launch monitors tell people their path is in or out I understand with respect to some line perpendicular to how the machine is set up, which will not in most cases be the same as the golfer’s body lines.  To put it another way you could be in to out with respect to the machine but still out to in  with respect to your body if you are lined up right.

 

 

IMHO the face and path orientations that matter are "relative to the target". You're correct that you could be in->out or out->in relative to your body and frankly be the opposite in relation to the target depending on how you are lined up. 

 

The last time I played with my 16 yo son I noticed that he was setting up closed to the target. I think he was doing it as an "anti-slice" move. I think he's a little bit OTT and out->in relative to his body. By setting up closed with a face shut relative to his stance, it seemed like he was playing to hit straight pulls.  As it worked out, he was hitting the ball really nicely straight at the target and playing really well. 

 

I worry that's ultimately a bandaid for him and he'll be well served to start getting that figured out, but that's for his pro to handle at his next lesson, not me. He eclipsed my ability to fix anything in his golf swing a long time ago.