Determining When Grass Clippings are "Piled for Removal"

[Archimedes65]

4 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

Same feeling here. Take one for the team, build some karma with the golfing gods, and move on. Folks who try to nuance the RoG too much will be punished 10x later.

 

The better I got at golf, the more I realized that I got way more random good breaks than random bad breaks.  Most of my bad breaks weren’t breaks at all, they were just my bad play.  My true good vs. bad ‘breaks’ always lean to the good.  So I’ve stopped grousing over bad breaks.  It always more than evens out.  And I never look for relief unless it’s overwhelmingly obvious that I get it and that I need it.  Plus, I have no interest in taxing my brain like some people do grinding over rules during a round.  When in any doubt, just play the ball where it lies.  Most of are not playing for any (real) money.

[Archimedes65]

On a tangent, in a game this morning, one of my opponents took relief from some excess water under the tree, calling it ‘ground under repair’.  I let him drop and hit his shot, then I informed him that he took improper relief, as that is not ground under repair, and that he is due a one stroke penalty.  I gave him until the end of the hole to tell me what the proper relief was and he couldn’t do so… We’re best buddies now…

 

/s

[antip]

7 hours ago, iacas said:

 

That is what the golfer in the OP did. He wasn't happy about it, but… 

 

I've been thinking about this for awhile, and you can get pretty far down some weird paths: what if it's intended for removal, but people forget to remove it? What if they intend for the wind or rain to remove it — is that sufficient? What if it's 3pm and the maintenance staff have all gone home for the day — if they're going to remove this the next time they mow the green in a day or two, does that count?

 

Ultimately, where I land, is that I think you have to use your reasonable judgement, as we see in other places in the rules, to suss out what you think is the course of action. And everyone will have a slightly different combo of factors.

 

Again, my list from above included the size of the pile (a small clump of grass clippings that may have fallen off a tire or something is almost certainly not GUR), the time of the day/age of the pile, the location on the course (immediately next to the green is more likely to be intended to be removed than 20 yards into the woods where they always dump clippings), and so on.

 

I don't know how I'd have ruled in the OP because we've got no photos, no time of day, not much of anything. I'd have probably just said "ahhh, that sucks" and taken it as a challenge to see what kind of shot I could hit from there, as the golfer in the OP did. If I were called into a match and they needed a ruling, and I couldn't quickly reach someone on the maintenance staff or whatnot… I'd have to weigh the factors above and any others (similar things on other holes, etc.) that seemed to give weight to ruling one way or the other.

 

I don't know. I don't suspect there's a great answer, for this specific instance or for other instances people might picture in their minds. And that's part of the problem: I might picture even the original thing as being different than it was.

 

Thanks to those who tried to answer the question. Again, I don't think there is one definitive answer; like other things in the Rules of Golf, we can't write definitive rules all the time. Some things are going to be subjective.

 

 

Because I think it's a factor in trying to determine if it's "intended for removal." If the maintenance staff is gone for the day, it lends weight to the idea that they didn't intend to remove it. If they just finished mowing and you're waiting on them before you hit your approach shot, it's more likely they intend to remove it but just haven't had the chance to yet.

 

Time is one of the factors that I think you'd have to weigh.

On general version of the question, how do you "know" whether something is "piled for removal"? Many times you simply don't! If there are known facts relevant, you use them. If there is someone to consult, you use them. If it is a serious competition you can play two balls. But you may not have any of these options and must make a subjective judgement, so it should be reasonable. This is not uncommon on the course, and I have no problem in excercising the judgement, based on exactly the presentation before me, to make a decision. Multiple things could be relevent, including the likes of how big is it, location; is it impeding play in an area of central importance to play; does it seem to be a screw up or work in progress; does it look like it is intended to be there and so on. 

 

Personally, I wouldn't put much very weight on whether is it 7am or 7pm if it is a significant pile of clippings next to the putting green. I have never seen such a pile on a golf course that is intended to be left there - so I don't have any problem with offering relief if I am refereeing in that situation (and I would be on the comms to get it fixed or I would attack it with a rake).

 

All that said, I don't see your specific OP example as a "general" case, rather it is extremely clear cut. 4 sqft and 2 inches deep means the ball is potentially completely covered! Me to player: "Your options are move the loose impediments - careful not to move your ball - or take GUR relief, your choice".

[rogolf]

56 minutes ago, antip said:

On general version of the question, how do you "know" whether something is "piled for removal"? Many times you simply don't! If there are known facts relevant, you use them. If there is someone to consult, you use them. If it is a serious competition you can play two balls. But you may not have any of these options and must make a subjective judgement, so it should be reasonable. This is not uncommon on the course, and I have no problem in excercising the judgement, based on exactly the presentation before me, to make a decision. Multiple things could be relevent, including the likes of how big is it, location; is it impeding play in an area of central importance to play; does it seem to be a screw up or work in progress; does it look like it is intended to be there and so on. 

 

Personally, I wouldn't put much very weight on whether is it 7am or 7pm if it is a significant pile of clippings next to the putting green. I have never seen such a pile on a golf course that is intended to be left there - so I don't have any problem with offering relief if I am refereeing in that situation (and I would be on the comms to get it fixed or I would attack it with a rake).

 

All that said, I don't see your specific OP example as a "general" case, rather it is extremely clear cut. 4 sqft and 2 inches deep means the ball is potentially completely covered! Me to player: "Your options are move the loose impediments - careful not to move your ball - or take GUR relief, your choice".

I agree that there is not a general response that can be applied.  It all depends on the specifics of the situation that is encountered, and whether, imo, it meets the definition of "piled for removal".  I also realize that I'm an advocate of "play hard".  That's how I was taught to play and referee.

[antip]

6 hours ago, rogolf said:

I agree that there is not a general response that can be applied.  It all depends on the specifics of the situation that is encountered, and whether, imo, it meets the definition of "piled for removal".  I also realize that I'm an advocate of "play hard".  That's how I was taught to play and referee.

"Play hard" in conjunction with offering a second opinion works fine for me. If I was going to adopt a mantra it would be every case on its merits and "play reasonable judgement". 

[antip]

14 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

On a tangent, in a game this morning, one of my opponents took relief from some excess water under the tree, calling it ‘ground under repair’.  I let him drop and hit his shot, then I informed him that he took improper relief, as that is not ground under repair, and that he is due a one stroke penalty.  I gave him until the end of the hole to tell me what the proper relief was and he couldn’t do so… We’re best buddies now…

 

/s

None of this makes any sense, but as long as you're best buds now ...

[rogolf]

4 hours ago, antip said:

"Play hard" in conjunction with offering a second opinion works fine for me. If I was going to adopt a mantra it would be every case on its merits and "play reasonable judgement". 

Where I referee, a second opinion is always permitted.  If it's readily apparent the player doesn't agree with my ruling, I will often offer a second opinion.

Edited July 5, 2024 by rogolf

[ThinkingPlus]

20 minutes ago, antip said:

None of this makes any sense, but as long as you're best buds now ...

/s implies sarcasm so...

 

Of course your post might have been a sarcastic retort. I can't tell for sure.

[iacas]

16 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Depending on the size of the pile  I’d be more in agreement with your earlier assertion that it’s like real estate….location location location.

 

On the fringe? Piled for removal.

Off in the woods? Play it as it lies.

 

Well, yes, as I've said, I think the location is one of the factors that you consider, and I'm okay with the idea that each of us might apply all of the factors slightly differently and arrive at a slightly different conclusion.

 

I took a photo of this today:

 

 

I'm comfortable saying that almost everyone here would rule "loose impediments, but not GUR" for that, even if it was five yards short of the green in the fringe/fairway. What if it was two feet off the green? Probably still the same. What if the clump was twice the size? Probably still. If I told you this photo was from 8:30am and was on the 16th hole (we started at 6:55, the fairway had been cut within half an hour), that might change things eventually.

 

But at some point, in everyone's mind, it will probably flip from "man, bad break, landing on that clump that fell off a mower's tire" (pretty sure that's what it was) to "oh, that looks like a pile, and no maintenance worker puts a big pile of clippings right by the green."

 

16 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

The better I got at golf, the more I realized that I got way more random good breaks than random bad breaks.  Most of my bad breaks weren’t breaks at all, they were just my bad play.  My true good vs. bad ‘breaks’ always lean to the good.  So I’ve stopped grousing over bad breaks.  It always more than evens out.  And I never look for relief unless it’s overwhelmingly obvious that I get it and that I need it.  Plus, I have no interest in taxing my brain like some people do grinding over rules during a round.  When in any doubt, just play the ball where it lies.  Most of are not playing for any (real) money.

 

Yeah, I'm generally that way too. I also don't look at being in small divot holes or things like that as a bad break, just random occurrences that are gonna happen. But I pulled my drive a bit on 18 today, and it could have hit the left side of a hill and kicked hard left into some crap, but it carried just over the brow and went down to a good lie in the middle of the fairway 25 yards closer to the hole than my friend who hit a good drive (dogleg left).

 

12 hours ago, antip said:

On general version of the question, how do you "know" whether something is "piled for removal"? Many times you simply don't! If there are known facts relevant, you use them. If there is someone to consult, you use them. If it is a serious competition you can play two balls. But you may not have any of these options and must make a subjective judgement, so it should be reasonable.

 

That's where I started, and where I finished, only with the addition of at least drawing out some of those things that you can consider. I'm not gonna list the bullet list again, but that list.

 

12 hours ago, antip said:

Personally, I wouldn't put much very weight on whether is it 7am or 7pm if it is a significant pile of clippings next to the putting green. I have never seen such a pile on a golf course that is intended to be left there - so I don't have any problem with offering relief if I am refereeing in that situation (and I would be on the comms to get it fixed or I would attack it with a rake).

 

I think the time of day is a factor. I don't know that I'd weigh it heavily, but… I think it gets some weight. I've seen at one course where they'll use those sand whip things to blow apart clumps on the approach/run-up to the greens left by the mowers.

 

Not so much in the photo I posted above. That's just gonna sit there until it dries out and blows or falls apart. They are not removing that clump, even though it was early in the day.

 

11 hours ago, rogolf said:

I agree that there is not a general response that can be applied.  It all depends on the specifics of the situation that is encountered, and whether, imo, it meets the definition of "piled for removal".  I also realize that I'm an advocate of "play hard".  That's how I was taught to play and referee.

 

Thanks. I tend to lean that way as well.

[nsxguy]

2 hours ago, ThinkingPlus said:

/s implies sarcasm so...

 

Of course your post might have been a sarcastic retort. I can't tell for sure.

 

Archy's shown himself to be a very clever fellow.

 

His "/s" could apply to the entire story/post OR just to the "best buddies" ending.

 

Without clarification, who knows ?