What do you do to square the club face on downswing?

[MannJ]

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

This is a video that I made for a friend a few days ago that hopefully explains things more clearly. I think the best way to get deeper into the swing is through physical fitness and stretching.  Let me know if you have any further questions.  R to L

At my age and the time I am able to dedicate I am not sure I can swing like that, but I can probably do better. Thanks. 

[MannJ]

3 hours ago, wagolfer7 said:

Here's my 2 cents.  There's a few different issues.  But I think overall intent needs to change.  Eventually you need to let the arms / shoulders go.  If you just turn everything together, your going to get the arms late and you start tilting away from the target too much.  You need some width.  

 

Your finish really tells the story.  Arms completely collapsed.  Arms just going along for the ride.  

 

      

 

Coming through impact you can see that if you don't let your arms go, your body will start tilting away from target to allow you to reach the ball. 

 

Few things to try and help get the right feel.

 

#1) Pause drill.  Pause at the top and fire those arms down.  

#2) Medicine Ball Toss - through the ball towards the target.  Makes you feel the arms / shoulders extend to the target.

#3) Club Throwing - throw club towards the target.  Yes literally throw it.  Same feel idea as #2.  

 

 

Appreciate the drills to try. Thank you

[GoGoErky]

20 minutes ago, MannJ said:

At my age and the time I am able to dedicate I am not sure I can swing like that, but I can probably do better. Thanks. 

You don’t have to get into that position. Most people don’t need to be in that position.

 

Your best bet is to listen to Monte and what he says to do and ignore advice on what to do from all but a small group, including me, I have only pointed out what I see l. But on what to do listen to Monts, valtiel, iacas. 

Edited July 12, 2024 by GoGoErky

[MannJ]

4 hours ago, Ri_Redneck said:

In your face on video, I notice that your grip is fairly neutral (not strong). I generally see players with that type of grip shallow some during transition to help with the release. I don't see any shallowing going on in either of your DTL videos Looks more "1 Plane swingish"). That may be why you feel you're needing to make a move to get the club square.

 

I use a 1 Plane swing also, but have a fairly strong grip. That allows me to let my swing square the clubface. Just curious, if you hit a ball and just let your hands do what they will, what is the ball flight? If it's a push fade/slice, then you may benefit from a bit stronger left hand position.

 

BT

My normal ball flight is a mild draw, and my most common miss is a pull hook. I am capable of pushing the ball but it rarely fades. 
I am a bit curious about having some resemblance of a 1 plane swing. The videos are of me working towards squaring the club, which was bringing the club in steeper. I liked the feel of it and might continue to work towards that.  
That being said, a stronger grip may help my hand/forearm movements, regardless. 

[iacas]

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The hard part is making the adjustments as you fatigue during a given round of golf or practice session.

 

I find it odd how often you talk about this. I can and often do feel just as good 30 full swings into a round of golf as I do on swing 1 and 2. It's not like it's that taxing.

 

8 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You should be assessing very closely the start direction of every shot that you hit, but also don't try manipulate the face, rather try to see your club in slow motion entering impact and see it striking the ball just prior to your club face squaring to your target while just letting you swing motion happen.

 

And what is someone to do who squares the face to the path about two feet after the clubface reaches low point? 😛 

 

6 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Oh you aren't currently capable of doing the splits and would have to work up to it...well a golf swing is no different.

 

This is a terrible analogy.

 

6 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

"Hinge your wrists early in the takeaway"

 

Are you suggesting someone isn't physically capable of hinging the wrists earlier in the backswing? That they'll have to undergo physical fitness training to do this?

 

6 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

"Hinge your wrists early in the takeaway".....what...do you think about precisely when your tibialis anterior muscle flexes when you walk...of course you don't, unless you are injured?

 

You do realize there are people out there who have to learn how to walk if they walk improperly, right?

 

6 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Golf is swinging a stick that happens to strike a ball at a fundamental level just like walking is basically leaning forward and catching yourself before you fall on your face.

 

Babies can learn to walk. I've yet to see a baby shoot 66.

 

Also, walking is several orders of magnitude different than playing golf, and… people trip and fall or misstep or walk poorly all the time. Again, there are labs and therapists who help people learn to walk "better."

 

Again, despite it being WAY easier to walk than to play great golf.

 

6 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Swing the stick, observe the resulting ball flight, and adjust your position in relation to the ball accordingly and retest.

 

Yeah, there's way more to it than that.

[KD1]

While you're working on tempo:

 

[Lefthook]

@MonteScheinblum if you elaborate…  more hands and shoulders work to move the clubhead and “set” the club … and less arms? Or what?

[MonteScheinblum]

4 minutes ago, Lefthook said:

@MonteScheinblum if you elaborate…  more hands and shoulders work to move the clubhead and “set” the club … and less arms? Or what?

That’s going to be a feel bias for each golfer.  Tends to be the feel of moving the club head off the ball earlier and faster.

[Lefthook]

Thanks,
 

Is there also a factor of

more up and in there? And faster/sooner? 

[MonteScheinblum]

Just now, Lefthook said:

Thanks,
 

Is there also a factor of

more up and in there? And faster/sooner? 

Very likely 

[Valtiel]

@MannJ I agree with Monte and GoGoErky, it's a tempo and technique issue that is causing difficulty in squaring the club.



You early extend a bunch and lose a ton of spine angle, the right side kicking out towards the ball forcing your hands up and out from where they were at address.

Monte's point about tempo often encourages this overall sequencing problem which i'll highlight here + explain how this related to squaring up the face (thank you btw for the solid videos with good angles).



In your initial takeaway we see a very passive lower body in terms of pressure shifting. There is some as we see a slight depressing of your right foot and some movement in your left, but overall it kinda looks like you're trying to push your hips forward/backward before you've actually shifted pressure on to them. This is a bit of a complex thing so it would be good to hear what you're thinking and feeling as it relates to your lower body in takeaway. With Adam we see a very typical pattern in pros; a quick and fairly aggressive shift into the trail side early (note the lateral movement in the knees, hips, and head). He's stacking everything very early because there are about five more move you have to do in a very short time.

A more "central" kind of pivot with minimal lateral shifting can be fine, see my post here with the pro comps, but like any overall pelvic rotation/shifting pattern, it has rules and match ups. You start like you're going to stay "central", but then you shift later in the backswing (see below). This is a common pattern, because to all of this you might be thinking "f*** man I don't know, i'm just trying to take the club back slow and swing smooth, i'm not really thinking about my lower half". If that feels familiar then learning what you *are* supposed to be thinking about is the key. If it doesn't then i'd definitely like to hear what you *are* thinking about.

The "sluggish tempo" problem @MonteScheinblum mentioned encourages all of this.



These next two gifs will show everything being a step late as I mentioned. Up to left arm parallel here (P3) you make your first meaningful shift, similar to what Adam did immediately off the ball, whereas Adam is already closer to maxed out and bracing against that pressure. You can't see it, but the momentum created by swinging the club and your arms away from you naturally *wants* to pull you back, so any amount of *not* moving that way implies internal resistance to that momentum, and when this is a new concept to you, that will feel like you're pushing back towards your lead side off your back leg, this early. Therefore despite what it looks like Adam's body is doing here, he's actually starting push against that braced right leg towards his front leg which is prepping to rotate with that pressure by flexing.

That's all kinda complex, but I say all that to highlight what you're doing here is functionally opposite of what Adam and most pros do. You're going *with* the momentum of the club and your arms as you swing away, allowing your body to shift, whereas pros shift slightly "ahead" of this momentum to meet and actively resist it so as to naturally tilt back towards the front side.



This is where you see the big difference. In going with the momentum of the club you continue stacking up on your bag leg all the way to the top of the backswing. Adam meanwhile is able to sort of tip/twist back towards his front leg for this reason; in shifting pressure quickly and early to brace against the momentum of swinging the club, the "release" of that momentum when the arms starting to swing back towards the target in the latter half of the backswing "frees up" that brace against it to tip the lower body back towards the target.

Again, kinda annoyingly complex stuff, and my description above is a bit illustrative in that many people that do this correctly might not agree with that way of describing it, or simply "feel" it much different than that sounds, but the underlying pattern is the same no matter what the approach is:

1) Establish your trail side stability/resistance/pillar very early in takeaway
2) Load against it for roughly the first 50-75% of the backswing
3) Drift off of it and towards your lead side in the last portion of the backswing
4) Begin your downswing after pressure has sufficiently increased in your front leg to begin using it for rotation

This is *all* a big song and dance to get pressure and momentum into your front side *before* the downswing starts (more on that below). The ratios of each step above and the feels to create them will vary from person to person. Henrik Stenson for example does #1 before he even takes the club away and nearly skips directly to #3 as soon as the club starts moving, which matches up with his quick tempo. Ernie Els as Monte referenced earlier does the opposite which suits his long, languid tempo. He makes a *huge* shift to the right and takes much longer to establish that back post, then makes a quick shift at the top of the swing followed by a lot of vertical force from the left side to eject out of the way. Most pros fall between these two extremes, and the average player doesn't even know any of them exist.

Since this has already gone on awhile, i'll just bullet point why this matters for face control:

- Incorrectly timed/sequenced pressure shifting can lead to too much weight on the back leg at the top of the backswing.
- Your brain/body can only create pelvic rotation via using the ground (whichever leg has pressure on it) so if the downswing starts with too much pressure favoring the back leg, that's what you'll use to rotate. Since the right hip can't go backwards to do this, it has to go forwards....towards the ball.
- Rotating towards the ball means a bunch of things are forced to break down in order to make contact. Hands come up/out, spine straightens, arms extend etc etc.
- All the breakdowns make it harder to control the face, like an infielder having to navigate around a runner to chase down a fly ball.

All of this is doubly harmful towards flatter, deeper backswings like yours currently. The plane of a flatter swing being inherently more tilted/horizontal means anything that moves on that same axis, like your body towards the ball, will require more compensations to get to the ball. There have been some early extenders in high level golf, virtually ALL of them have had very high hands and shallower positions in the backswing so early extension doesn't upset things as much.

In terms of resources for all this, the oft shared AMG Hip Turn video, Monte discusses it here, and overall it's something needs to be digested and integrated into your overall swing in order to stabilize the clubface via not interfering with it's path to the ball.

Edited July 14, 2024 by Valtiel

[MannJ]

11 hours ago, Valtiel said:

@MannJ I agree with Monte and GoGoErky, it's a tempo and technique issue that is causing difficulty in squaring the club.



You early extend a bunch and lose a ton of spine angle, the right side kicking out towards the ball forcing your hands up and out from where they were at address.

Monte's point about tempo often encourages this overall sequencing problem which i'll highlight here + explain how this related to squaring up the face (thank you btw for the solid videos with good angles).



In your initial takeaway we see a very passive lower body in terms of pressure shifting. There is some as we see a slight depressing of your right foot and some movement in your left, but overall it kinda looks like you're trying to push your hips forward/backward before you've actually shifted pressure on to them. This is a bit of a complex thing so it would be good to hear what you're thinking and feeling as it relates to your lower body in takeaway. With Adam we see a very typical pattern in pros; a quick and fairly aggressive shift into the trail side early (note the lateral movement in the knees, hips, and head). He's stacking everything very early because there are about five more move you have to do in a very short time.

A more "central" kind of pivot with minimal lateral shifting can be fine, see my post here with the pro comps, but like any overall pelvic rotation/shifting pattern, it has rules and match ups. You start like you're going to stay "central", but then you shift later in the backswing (see below). This is a common pattern, because to all of this you might be thinking "f*** man I don't know, i'm just trying to take the club back slow and swing smooth, i'm not really thinking about my lower half". If that feels familiar then learning what you *are* supposed to be thinking about is the key. If it doesn't then i'd definitely like to hear what you *are* thinking about.

The "sluggish tempo" problem @MonteScheinblum mentioned encourages all of this.



These next two gifs will show everything being a step late as I mentioned. Up to left arm parallel here (P3) you make your first meaningful shift, similar to what Adam did immediately off the ball, whereas Adam is already closer to maxed out and bracing against that pressure. You can't see it, but the momentum created by swinging the club and your arms away from you naturally *wants* to pull you back, so any amount of *not* moving that way implies internal resistance to that momentum, and when this is a new concept to you, that will feel like you're pushing back towards your lead side off your back leg, this early. Therefore despite what it looks like Adam's body is doing here, he's actually starting push against that braced right leg towards his front leg which is prepping to rotate with that pressure by flexing.

That's all kinda complex, but I say all that to highlight what you're doing here is functionally opposite of what Adam and most pros do. You're going *with* the momentum of the club and your arms as you swing away, allowing your body to shift, whereas pros shift slightly "ahead" of this momentum to meet and actively resist it so as to naturally tilt back towards the front side.



This is where you see the big difference. In going with the momentum of the club you continue stacking up on your bag leg all the way to the top of the backswing. Adam meanwhile is able to sort of tip/twist back towards his front leg for this reason; in shifting pressure quickly and early to brace against the momentum of swinging the club, the "release" of that momentum when the arms starting to swing back towards the target in the latter half of the backswing "frees up" that brace against it to tip the lower body back towards the target.

Again, kinda annoyingly complex stuff, and my description above is a bit illustrative in that many people that do this correctly might not agree with that way of describing it, or simply "feel" it much different than that sounds, but the underlying pattern is the same no matter what the approach is:

1) Establish your trail side stability/resistance/pillar very early in takeaway
2) Load against it for roughly the first 50-75% of the backswing
3) Drift off of it and towards your lead side in the last portion of the backswing
4) Begin your downswing after pressure has sufficiently increased in your front leg to begin using it for rotation

This is *all* a big song and dance to get pressure and momentum into your front side *before* the downswing starts (more on that below). The ratios of each step above and the feels to create them will vary from person to person. Henrik Stenson for example does #1 before he even takes the club away and nearly skips directly to #3 as soon as the club starts moving, which matches up with his quick tempo. Ernie Els as Monte referenced earlier does the opposite which suits his long, languid tempo. He makes a *huge* shift to the right and takes much longer to establish that back post, then makes a quick shift at the top of the swing followed by a lot of vertical force from the left side to eject out of the way. Most pros fall between these two extremes, and the average player doesn't even know any of them exist.

Since this has already gone on awhile, i'll just bullet point why this matters for face control:

- Incorrectly timed/sequenced pressure shifting can lead to too much weight on the back leg at the top of the backswing.
- Your brain/body can only create pelvic rotation via using the ground (whichever leg has pressure on it) so if the downswing starts with too much pressure favoring the back leg, that's what you'll use to rotate. Since the right hip can't go backwards to do this, it has to go forwards....towards the ball.
- Rotating towards the ball means a bunch of things are forced to break down in order to make contact. Hands come up/out, spine straightens, arms extend etc etc.
- All the breakdowns make it harder to control the face, like an infielder having to navigate around a runner to chase down a fly ball.

All of this is doubly harmful towards flatter, deeper backswings like yours currently. The plane of a flatter swing being inherently more tilted/horizontal means anything that moves on that same axis, like your body towards the ball, will require more compensations to get to the ball. There have been some early extenders in high level golf, virtually ALL of them have had very high hands and shallower positions in the backswing so early extension doesn't upset things as much.

In terms of resources for all this, the oft shared AMG Hip Turn video, Monte discusses it here, and overall it's something needs to be digested and integrated into your overall swing in order to stabilize the clubface via not interfering with it's path to the ball.

Wow. That was incredible. I can’t say thanks enough for your effort. 

Let me try to explain my lower body process and thinking a little bit. It’s a mute point, because I plan to change it based on what you have said, but nonetheless:

I have struggled with the hip action endlessly. When I have got it into what appeared correct position on video, it was false either because my arms were disconnected and left behind, or because my weight may have not been properly shifted. Regardless I hit the ball like crap. 

So.. my lower body thinking in backswing. I was trying previously (not in this video) to get my left hip deep  turn back into my trail foot heel and inside of foot. I began noticing when I did that my lead hip turned way in, way past 45 degrees at top of swing. So my center point of my hips were way out towards the ball before I ever started my downswing. Which defeated the purpose of turning my trail hip back deep. All of that made me decide to just go lightly into my shift on the backswing, which is what you can see in the video. 

The right knee coming in at the ball has also plagued me. 
So I am basically doing that because there is too much pressure in the trail leg at that point? 

Isnt it bad to turn my lead hip in past the 45 degree mark?

or is that okay if I am getting trail hip behind the tush line established at address?

 

Should my pressure shift go directly into the inside of trail foot, or inside and heel, and stay there until I begin drift?

 

When I drift should it be intentionally into lead glute/lead foot heel?

or 

into ball/toe of lead foot? 
or?

 

I plan to try to establish pressure shift into trail foot at takeaway and then hinge wrist and begin drift shortly after. Will see how it goes. 

Thanks again!!!

Edited July 14, 2024 by MannJ

[MannJ]

Here’s where I’m at with it for the moment. It’s difficult. I’m not sure if I should initiate the drifting motion by pushing my whole body with my trail foot or sliding my hips or leaning my upper body. 
It feels like I have to start this as soon as I put pressure into my trail foot in the takeaway, like almost immediately after, and even then I don’t think I’m getting enough drift to get enough pressure into the lead side. 
It does feel much stronger and for the most part more solid. Of course, who knows what the ball flight is doing. 
So I can definitely use the resources to learn more about this drift. I just thought I would post another video of where I was at with it. 

[GoGoErky]

8 hours ago, MannJ said:

Here’s where I’m at with it for the moment. It’s difficult. I’m not sure if I should initiate the drifting motion by pushing my whole body with my trail foot or sliding my hips or leaning my upper body. 
It feels like I have to start this as soon as I put pressure into my trail foot in the takeaway, like almost immediately after, and even then I don’t think I’m getting enough drift to get enough pressure into the lead side. 
It does feel much stronger and for the most part more solid. Of course, who knows what the ball flight is doing. 
So I can definitely use the resources to learn more about this drift. I just thought I would post another video of where I was at with it. 

I don’t see much change and not seeing any real move to the lead side. The right foot coming up and right hip moving in are indicators of this. Also there still is not wrist hinging 

 

out of curiosity are you doing any slower motion swings and feels for the various items?

 

 

[Righty to Lefty]

On 7/12/2024 at 9:43 PM, iacas said:

 

I find it odd how often you talk about this. I can and often do feel just as good 30 full swings into a round of golf as I do on swing 1 and 2. It's not like it's that taxing.

 

 

And what is someone to do who squares the face to the path about two feet after the clubface reaches low point? 😛 

 

 

This is a terrible analogy.

 

 

Are you suggesting someone isn't physically capable of hinging the wrists earlier in the backswing? That they'll have to undergo physical fitness training to do this?

 

 

You do realize there are people out there who have to learn how to walk if they walk improperly, right?

 

 

Babies can learn to walk. I've yet to see a baby shoot 66.

 

Also, walking is several orders of magnitude different than playing golf, and… people trip and fall or misstep or walk poorly all the time. Again, there are labs and therapists who help people learn to walk "better."

 

Again, despite it being WAY easier to walk than to play great golf.

 

 

Yeah, there's way more to it than that.

 

I find it odd how often you talk about this. I can and often do feel just as good 30 full swings into a round of golf as I do on swing 1 and 2. It's not like it's that taxing.

Ahh yes my biggest fan is back active on my posts attempting to dissect every single line of text.  I knew you would be around soon and I was waiting patiently so I'll play the game.  You find it odd that making 30 swings taxes the body.  I know people that go to Top Golf and make 30 swings and then asked me why they were sore the next day, let alone doing it while walking 5-7 miles in hot and humid weather.  It's not navy seal training, but golf is still a sport and there is a reason why a physical fitness regimen is part of a daily routine for just about every high level participant, except for maybe John Daly, and that is because golf in fact does tax the body and it must be taken into account  because it affects performance. Using your own rationale there would be no reason to eat or hydrate on the course since golf isn't taxing the body.   

 

You do realize there are people out there who have to learn how to walk if they walk improperly, right?

 The vast majority of the population have a perfectly acceptable walk/swing motion to work with, most don't have any clue about impact and believe it when told that their swing motion is to blame for their poor results. 

 

 Babies can learn to walk. I've yet to see a baby shoot 66.

 

 

He's probably thinking about his pressure shift, firing his hips, and wrist hinge I'm sure. The ground work to shoot 66 comes from trusting your swing motion and learning to use the leverage created to the best of your ability and adapting from shot to shot. Trying to micro manage your swing motion, especially while using internal cues, is the fastest way to stunt your improvement. Shooting 66 is not a reflection of how good your swing motion is, it is a reflection how well you use your swing motion to navigate a golf course.  That comes from playing the game, and playing a lot, and there is no substitute for making all those decisions on course while only getting one chance at that particular shot. 

 

 Also, walking is several orders of magnitude different than playing golf, and… people trip and fall or misstep or walk poorly all the time. Again, there are labs and therapists who help people learn to walk "better."

No it is not, golf at its core is swinging a stick and at its core walking is leaning forward and catching yourself before you fall on your face. In both cases we are terrible at first and no one is proficient right away but through persistence we eventually get it and gain competency.  We are not all created equal physically so some swing/ walk more fluidly than others but what it boils down to is that you have not choice but to get good at walking while you have a choice to play golf.  You've never heard a pro say that they only go to the range once a week and play only on weekends and made it to the tour. They all had that phase where they were putting in a tremendous amount of work on and off the course.  A golfer consistently playing once a week is playing 52 rounds a year, while a tour pro is likely playing 300 or more in a given year so the tour pro is getting at least 6 times the exposure greatly steepening their improvement.  It is amazing how fast we get good at walking when doing thousands and thousands of reps a day

 

Again, despite it being WAY easier to walk than to play great golf.

 Those are two different standards comparing  just walking to top tier golfers, elite "walkers" are called track athletes and getting to the top of any sport is tough to attain. 

 

Yeah, there's way more to it than that.

 No there isn't, and the video of the kid hitting the shot is an excellent example that there isn't more to it than that. 

 

On 7/12/2024 at 4:25 PM, MannJ said:

At my age and the time I am able to dedicate I am not sure I can swing like that, but I can probably do better. Thanks. 

I never said you have to swing like that though I would gladly accept her mobility into my body any day! It is an observation that should be kept in mind as you progress so that you understand that as your body becomes more capable you will have to make further adjustments to the ball's placement along your arc as you are more able to delay strike.  You should put the ball in the place in your arc and in relation to you where you can most efficiently deliver energy to it then do your best to "relentlessly repeat" it! Best of luck on your golf journey. 

[MannJ]

1 hour ago, GoGoErky said:

I don’t see much change and not seeing any real move to the lead side. The right foot coming up and right hip moving in are indicators of this. Also there still is not wrist hinging 

 

out of curiosity are you doing any slower motion swings and feels for the various items?

 

 

I admittedly forgot the wrist hinge part. There is a lot going on there I am trying to incorporate in a small time frame between takeaway and top of swing. 
I will definitely try to implement that next time. 
I only had about 30 minutes last night. I did try to get the feeling of pressure moving in many portions of the swing. I didn’t really do slow motion. 
thanks

[MannJ]

1 hour ago, GoGoErky said:

I don’t see much change and not seeing any real move to the lead side. The right foot coming up and right hip moving in are indicators of this. Also there still is not wrist hinging 

 

out of curiosity are you doing any slower motion swings and feels for the various items?

 

 

I have been trying to do this some in the past. 
I am wondering if I should get more extreme with it. 
Is it even possible to over do a wrist hinge, or do it too quickly?

[johnrobison]

 

1 hour ago, Righty to Lefty said:

golf at its core is swinging a stick

Sure. And playing the piano, at its core, is banging on keys. 

[GoGoErky]

48 minutes ago, MannJ said:

I have been trying to do this some in the past. 
I am wondering if I should get more extreme with it. 
Is it even possible to over do a wrist hinge, or do it too quickly?

Yes you need to. Making changes at full speed isn’t going to happen. Your body is going to revert to what it already knows. To make changes la exaggeration is used to create a change as are slower swings and drills.

 

You have to retrain the brain to move in a new way. That requires reps and time.

 

 

[Ri_Redneck]

On 7/12/2024 at 6:09 PM, MannJ said:

My normal ball flight is a mild draw, and my most common miss is a pull hook. I am capable of pushing the ball but it rarely fades. 
I am a bit curious about having some resemblance of a 1 plane swing. The videos are of me working towards squaring the club, which was bringing the club in steeper. I liked the feel of it and might continue to work towards that.  
That being said, a stronger grip may help my hand/forearm movements, regardless. 

The flipping could be the cause of the left-side miss. In the end, you have to cure the cause of the flip. You have other options that have been posted. Look them over and see what works best for you.

 

BT

[iacas]

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

You find it odd that making 30 swings taxes the body. I know people that go to Top Golf and make 30 swings and then asked me why they were sore the next day, let alone doing it while walking 5-7 miles in hot and humid weather.

 

These are people who don't golf that much, who haven't used those muscles in that way perhaps ever. You seem to act like making 30 swings is "taxing" to golfers when, quite often, it's really not.

 

I'm glad you think that conjuring up "some people" or "my son hit one shot one time doing x" is a good way to counter-argue, but no, I don't go for it. Because I could just come back with something like "I know people who can hit 200 balls and feel pretty good at the end of it." Hell, I had a four-hour session a few Sundays ago and felt great at the end. It was from 7:30 to noon, so I had the whole rest of the day ahead of me. I went home, did yard work, etc. Then went to the range that evening.

 

Can you get fatigued on the golf course? Sure. Is it the huge concern you often seem to make it? No, I don't think it is. You talk about it a lot.

 

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Using your own rationale there would be no reason to eat or hydrate on the course since golf isn't taxing the body.

 

No, that's not "using my rationale" at all. I've never said "sustaining life" is particularly taxing. Food and water are basic requirements of life, not something you do because you're "taxing" your body solely by existing.

 

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The vast majority of the population have a perfectly acceptable walk/swing motion to work with, most don't have any clue about impact and believe it when told that their swing motion is to blame for their poor results.

 

Yeah, so, hard disagree there. And honestly, this is the crux of where you get off into the weeds and where people disagree with you so much:

• You can spend a bunch of time showing golfers what a good impact is.
• Those golfers still have to GET there.
• The swing motion is how they get there.
• Almost every bad swing motion is their attempt to move in such a way that, from whatever spot they're in now, they can hit the ball in the direction of the target.

Take  a golfer with a decent grip and setup, good ball position, etc. Decent backswing, even. From the top, he spins a bunch (maybe he's heard he needs "passive" arms 😄). So the hands shift out, and then he's gotta pull the hands down and left, so the club tips out, and since it's still so high, the body has to stall so the club can come down.

 

This golfer is going to hit pulls and slices. He can understand all he wants about impact, but his swing motion stops or prevents him from achieving it.

 

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

 Babies can learn to walk. I've yet to see a baby shoot 66.

 

 

I can play this game too:

 

 

Toddlers aren't shooting 66, but they can learn to walk, and they often learn to do that pretty well in a few days to a few weeks. Swinging a golf club is many orders of magnitude more difficult than walking, and as I said before… I think you'd be surprised at the number of people who need to learn to walk differently than they do.

 

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

The ground work to shoot 66 comes from trusting your swing motion and learning to use the leverage created to the best of your ability and adapting from shot to shot.

 

Since the best you've gotten to is a five index, you're talking purely theory here, no?

 

How exactly does one trust a faulty swing motion?

 

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Trying to micro manage your swing motion

 

Back to the straw men. I'm not going to reply to arguments to things I didn't say.

 

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Also, walking is several orders of magnitude different than playing golf, and… people trip and fall or misstep or walk poorly all the time. Again, there are labs and therapists who help people learn to walk "better."

No it is not, golf at its core is swinging a stick

 

Yes, it is. Just about everyone can walk, very few people ever break 80 every time they play. They trip and fall (golf equivalent) pretty often, every round.

 

And again, some larger-than-you-seem-to-realize number of people still need therapy and training to learn to walk "better."

 

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

It is amazing how fast we get good at walking when doing thousands and thousands of reps a day

 

I know people (see how easy this is?) who have been playing five rounds a week for 20+ years who still stink at golf… because their swing is lousy, leading to horrible impact conditions. You don't get better at golf by just playing a lot of golf. That gets you close to whatever your ceiling with that swing will get you, but that's it. For some, that's rarely breaking 90.

 

2 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Again, despite it being WAY easier to walk than to play great golf.

Those are two different standards comparing  just walking to top tier golfers, elite "walkers" are called track athletes and getting to the top of any sport is tough to attain.

 

No. I'm not saying anything about "elite" walkers or golfers.

 

Learning to walk (just walk, not be a track athlete) is several orders of magnitude easier than learning to swing a golf club well. Fewer muscles are involved with MUCH wider margins of error.

 

Weird hill to die on, man, but you do you.

[Righty to Lefty]

2 hours ago, johnrobison said:

 

Sure. And playing the piano, at its core, is banging on keys. 

Wrong...piano is different, there are fundamental scales and chords that set foundation for all music and simply banging on keys does not produce them as you have to have an understanding of them to use them. 

 

This is precisely the same as knowing impact in golf. If you know the fundamentals of impact then you can create "music"  but if you don't you are just hoping that you "bang on the keys" long enough to eventually figure it out and "make music."  Grip, stance, and posture are not the foundation of golf because you can "sit at the piano" any way that you chose, but the chords are still the same for everyone, just as impact is the same for everyone, everyday, and forever and in my opinion that is where the focus should be at all times and the grip stance and posture will evolve and adapt to suit the needs of the athlete. .  

Edited July 15, 2024 by Righty to Lefty

[johnrobison]

17 minutes ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Wrong...piano is different, there are fundamental scales and chords that set foundation for all music and simply banging on keys does not produce them as you have to have an understanding of them to use them. 

 

This is precisely the same as knowing impact in golf. If you know the fundamentals of impact then you can create "music"  but if you don't you are just hoping that you "bang on the keys" long enough to eventually figure it out and "make music."  Grip, stance, and posture are not the foundation of golf because you can "sit at the piano" any way that you chose, but the chords are still the same for everyone, just as impact is the same for everyone, everyday, and forever and in my opinion that is where the focus should be at times and the grip stance and posture will evolve and adapt to suit the needs of the athlete. .  

I can't decide where to even start, so I'm out.

(How did I let myself get drawn in again 🤦‍♂️)

[Righty to Lefty]

9 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

I can't decide where to even start, so I'm out.

(How did I let myself get drawn in again 🤦‍♂️)

Peace out...hope you get all you hope for out of this game that we all love or we wouldn't be here. 

[nikos74]

Not great from a technical perspective, but helps provide a mental image of what needs to be done.

 

You have to "post to the lead side" and then pull through all the way to the finish.  Allow the weight shift to happen naturally, don't force it prematurely.  "Cover the ball" with your chest.

 

Edited July 15, 2024 by nikos74
added content

[iacas]

6 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

Wrong... piano is different, there are fundamental scales and chords that set foundation for all music and simply banging on keys does not produce them as you have to have an understanding of them to use them.

 

Banging on keys without any rhyme or reason is closer to "just swinging a stick" like you said than playing good golf. His analogy is way better than yours.

 

6 hours ago, Righty to Lefty said:

This is precisely the same as knowing impact in golf. If you know the fundamentals of impact then you can create "music"  but if you don't you are just hoping that you "bang on the keys" long enough to eventually figure it out and "make music."

 

So do I, as a + index, inherently "know impact" much better than you? If you "know impact" so well, why do you struggle to break 80? Does my opinion about things carry more weight than yours? Before you answer, again, I'll remind you that you've repeatedly talked up your ability to at one time be a 5 handicap as proof or evidence that you know what you're talking about.

 

Why can a toddler learn to walk, yet some golfers will put tons of time into learning to play golf and still not break 80 or 90.

[Valtiel]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

Banging on keys without any rhyme or reason is closer to "just swinging a stick" like you said than playing good golf. His analogy is way better than yours.

Exactly. And I get to be a dork and flex as a long time working professional musician/composer/sound designer/audio engineer that has played stringed instruments for coming up on 25 years and has mixed and/or mastered thousands of hours of audio. I will give credit to R2L that "there are fundamental scales and chords that set foundation for all music" is basically correct, but the basic rules of music theory are VERY similar to those of the golf swing in that you have a lot of basic guidelines, tons of interconnecting matchups that work or don't work depending on context, rules that can be bent or even broken if done "correctly", and an overall big picture that needs to be maintained in order to execute the whole thing, especially in a group setting with other musicians. 

Music theory IS swing motion for all intents and purposes here, and saying that swing motion doesn't matter and that you only need to "understand impact" is like saying that in order to play music you don't need to understand music theory, you just need to "understand melody". It's just another thought terminating cliche that doesn't help anyone. Music in many ways is subjective and you can either learn the rules OR approach everything very organically/intuitively and end up in similar places as an individual musician. BUT if you want to be an instructor/teacher or otherwise be able to play with large groups of people, you NEED to know the rules to some extent, especially as an educator. Standing in front of a music class and just telling everyone they need to "understand melody" by just putting their hands in the right place or whatever is a good way to suck as a teacher. 

Edited July 16, 2024 by Valtiel

[Valtiel]

On 7/14/2024 at 3:18 PM, MannJ said:

Wow. That was incredible. I can’t say thanks enough for your effort. 

Let me try to explain my lower body process and thinking a little bit. It’s a mute point, because I plan to change it based on what you have said, but nonetheless:

I have struggled with the hip action endlessly. When I have got it into what appeared correct position on video, it was false either because my arms were disconnected and left behind, or because my weight may have not been properly shifted. Regardless I hit the ball like crap. 

So.. my lower body thinking in backswing. I was trying previously (not in this video) to get my left hip deep  turn back into my trail foot heel and inside of foot. I began noticing when I did that my lead hip turned way in, way past 45 degrees at top of swing. So my center point of my hips were way out towards the ball before I ever started my downswing. Which defeated the purpose of turning my trail hip back deep. All of that made me decide to just go lightly into my shift on the backswing, which is what you can see in the video. 

The right knee coming in at the ball has also plagued me. 
So I am basically doing that because there is too much pressure in the trail leg at that point? 

Isnt it bad to turn my lead hip in past the 45 degree mark?

or is that okay if I am getting trail hip behind the tush line established at address?

 

Should my pressure shift go directly into the inside of trail foot, or inside and heel, and stay there until I begin drift?

 

When I drift should it be intentionally into lead glute/lead foot heel?

or 

into ball/toe of lead foot? 
or?

 

I plan to try to establish pressure shift into trail foot at takeaway and then hinge wrist and begin drift shortly after. Will see how it goes. 

Thanks again!!!

Cheers!

I agree with @GoGoErky's follow up in that it appears little has changed pelvically speaking. Face on views should be used from here on out to check this however as lateral pressure shifting can sometimes be impossible to see DTL. 

Your overall description sounds very familiar; learning you're supposed to do something, attempting it and executing incorrectly, then shutting it down for fear of making anything worse. 
 

Quote

t feels like I have to start this as soon as I put pressure into my trail foot in the takeaway, like almost immediately after, and even then I don’t think I’m getting enough drift to get enough pressure into the lead side. 

This is exactly how and what I feel as well. When you aren't used to it it's frankly shocking just how quickly you need to be actively getting balanced and shifting towards the front side. As I alluded to in my post, when you're used to somewhat passively loading up on the trail leg for the entire backswing, any and all efforts to actually change this pattern to start shifting correctly will feel very weird. A first attempt basically looking no different is 100% expected, you're very likely entering the long and dark "feel vs. real" tunnel in where you'll swear you've made a big change only to see very little difference. It will take time and a lot of deliberate effort and experimentation to get there. 

[MannJ]

6 hours ago, nikos74 said:

Not great from a technical perspective, but helps provide a mental image of what needs to be done.

 

You have to "post to the lead side" and then pull through all the way to the finish.  Allow the weight shift to happen naturally, don't force it prematurely.  "Cover the ball" with your chest.

 

Thanks I will check this out

[MannJ]

13 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Cheers!

I agree with @GoGoErky's follow up in that it appears little has changed pelvically speaking. Face on views should be used from here on out to check this however as lateral pressure shifting can sometimes be impossible to see DTL. 

Your overall description sounds very familiar; learning you're supposed to do something, attempting it and executing incorrectly, then shutting it down for fear of making anything worse. 
 

This is exactly how and what I feel as well. When you aren't used to it it's frankly shocking just how quickly you need to be actively getting balanced and shifting towards the front side. As I alluded to in my post, when you're used to somewhat passively loading up on the trail leg for the entire backswing, any and all efforts to actually change this pattern to start shifting correctly will feel very weird. A first attempt basically looking no different is 100% expected, you're very likely entering the long and dark "feel vs. real" tunnel in where you'll swear you've made a big change only to see very little difference. It will take time and a lot of deliberate effort and experimentation to get there. 

I hit about 20 balls into the net this evening after trying some slow motion and getting some feels for the different stages. Yeah I thought I was swaying pretty hard into trail foot then almost falling back onto lead foot. Nowhere near that. I was also trying to basically pick the club up after takeaway to hinge my wrist, and ver little change it seems. Maybe some. 
I did keep the tush line once or twice, but I don’t think it was quite right. 
From my face on view it looks like I wasn’t doing anything different. The face on was early in it. 
Here is the clips from this evening if anyone is curious. No doubt this will take me time to get. I definitely see where face on will give me more feedback. I assume the earlier face on clips you used of me vs the pro with the lines drawn in is the benchmarks I will be trying to hit. 
Thanks again!