What do you do to square the club face on downswing?

[GoGoErky]

16 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

No.  The swing path is on a much higher inclination and far less inside.  At the top of the BS the lead arm is approximately on the shoulder plane.  One would have to actually push their arms down and not let their trail elbow hinge to achieve the position depicted in the diagram.  The goal is a 1PS.

Yes. I posted a video of Monte showing you the same thing. This has nothing to do with single plane to two plane swings.

 

Its about your constant posting on passive arms that is completely wrong and feels ain’t real so don’t talk about millions, Cogorno or anyone that’s not even doing what they say they are doing and your retort to passive arms

 

Not all swings are on the shoulder plane. See Furyk, Wolff and even Fowler.

 

18 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

A 2PS is not inherently better than a 1PS.  The first tends to be more powerful and the second tends to be more consistent.  It comes down to a personal preference

Stawman argument as nobody said one was better than the other. 
 

you’re entire reply is about something that wasn’t even discussed and is further proof you don’t understand the swing

[nikos74]

4 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Yes. I posted a video of Monte showing you the same thing. This has nothing to do with single plane to two plane swings.

 

Its about your constant posting on passive arms that is completely wrong and feels ain’t real so don’t talk about millions, Cogorno or anyone that’s not even doing what they say they are doing and your retort to passive arms

 

Not all swings are on the shoulder plane. See Furyk, Wolff and even Fowler.

 

Stawman argument as nobody said one was better than the other. 
 

you’re entire reply is about something that wasn’t even discussed and is further proof you don’t understand the swing

Wow you are all over the place and not making any sense.  Must be really mad, huh?

 

Even pros don't know what they are doing according to you.  🙄

[GoGoErky]

16 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

Wow you are all over the place and not making any sense.  Must be really mad, huh?

 

Even pros don't know what they are doing according to you.  🙄

Im making sense, you don’t understand the points being made and how they are showing you’re incorrect in your thinking about passive arms

 

I’m ensuring that people who come to read the forum have the correct information so when you or others post incorrect info we point it out.

 

Btw it’s not just me. It’s from the mouth of pros themselves and instructors who teach pros. Many just know their swing and what works for them. Many of those same pros talk about their feels which are specific to them and shouldn’t be what an amateur tries to feel or do especially when they don’t understand the complexity of the swing. These pros wouldn’t make good teachers because all they know is their swing.

 

Bradley Hughes speaks to this and his decision to be a teaching pro. All he knew was what worked for him in his swing. He spent time just studying the swing and talking to teaching pros and growing his knowledge before he started giving lessons. So yes pros don’t know what they are talking about when it comes to the golf swing 

Edited July 17, 2024 by GoGoErky

[nikos74]

57 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

I’m ensuring that people who come to read the forum have the correct information so when you or others post incorrect info we point it out.

 

Btw it’s not just me. It’s from the mouth of pros themselves and instructors who teach pros. Many just know their swing and what works for them. Many of those same pros talk about their feels which are specific to them and shouldn’t be what an amateur tries to feel or do especially when they don’t understand the complexity of the swing. These pros wouldn’t make good teachers because all they know is their swing.

 

Bradley Hughes speaks to this and his decision to be a teaching pro. All he knew was what worked for him in his swing. He spent time just studying the swing and talking to teaching pros and growing his knowledge before he started giving lessons. So yes pros don’t know what they are talking about when it comes to the golf swing 

Except Eric Cogorno is a high profile teaching pro with many years of experience so I think he knows what he is talking about.  He is not a playing pro.  And he specifically says "how to turn off your arms for an effortless swing"

 

What are your credentials that are superior?  Just because you agree with monte does not make you an expert on the golf swing.  Or anyone else that does.

Edited July 17, 2024 by nikos74

[slytown]

Squaring the face to the arc and squaring the face to the target are two different things. Ideally you would square the face to the arc with arms, hands, and wrists, then square the face to target with upper body rotation.

[GungHoGolf]

45 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

Except Eric Cogorno is a high profile teaching pro with many years of experience so I think he knows what he is talking about.  He is not a playing pro.  And he specifically says "how to turn off your arms for an effortless swing"

Ok, here is his short video with that title. Have you watched it? He’s talking about grip pressure and removing tension from the arms, and says nothing about “passive arms”. If you watch his swing, he is clearly moving his arms down rapidly from the top, as all good players do:

 

 

[GoGoErky]

8 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

Ok, here is his short video with that title. Have you watched it? He’s talking about grip pressure and removing tension from the arms, and says nothing about “passive arms”. If you watch his swing, he is clearly moving his arms down rapidly from the top, as all good players do:

 

 

He posted it yesterday and I explained the samething to him.

[GoGoErky]

58 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

Except Eric Cogorno is a high profile teaching pro with many years of experience so I think he knows what he is talking about.  He is not a playing pro.  And he specifically says "how to turn off your arms for an effortless swing"

 

What are your credentials that are superior?  Just because you agree with monte does not make you an expert on the golf swing.  Or anyone else that does.

Literally explained the video to you yesterday and you still refuse to realize you were wrong maybe gung ho explaining it a second time you’ll grasp the concept of the video and feel ain’t real.

 

Im not a pro and have never claimed to be one. I have spent time reading information from Monte on here, watched a bunch of his video series especially efficient swing where he breaks down each segment of the swing, which helps give a very good understanding of how the swing works. I have followed him on social media for awhile as well.

 

I have watched and studied a lot of the videos from AMG, Eric Cogorno and some others. I have gone through the online courses of several instructors such as Milo lines and GG. I have been exposed to many different swing theories and methods. I ask questions and when i am wrong i accept it and ask questions to understand it better.

 

So you won’t see me give swing advice but I can analyze a swing and see where mistakes are being made, might not be the the biggest issues one has or how to fix which is why I don’t give much advice 

when instructors or other smarter people on here either like a post, comment agreeing or adding onto what i said at good indicators I have an idea want I’m talking about. Much more so than when those same people are pointing out how wrong someone’s post is over and over which would be an indicator of someone who doesn’t understand what they are talking about. You fall into this category and you have had experts point out how your opinion and use of outdated theories are wrong and that they have been debunked.

 

So it’s pretty easy to read and see who knows what they are talking about and who doesn’t 

[iacas]

2 hours ago, nikos74 said:

No. The swing path is on a much higher inclination and far less inside.

 

Please try to read what I say before replying.

 

The first image illustrates what purely passive arms would look like if you just rotated during the backswing. The arms don't go UP at all.

 

The second image shows what the arms do, independently of the body turning. They go almost entirely UP. This is very much something you must "manually" or "actively" do because passive arms will, again, look like the first image.

 

Then, during the downswing, what goes up must come down, and it sure as heck isn't gravity reversing the "up" from the arms in the downswing — you have to manually/actively move the arms back DOWN during the downswing (while rotating back to and through the ball).

 

At no point are the arms really "passive." #FeelAintReal

 

2 hours ago, nikos74 said:

At the top of the BS the lead arm is approximately on the shoulder plane.

 

Again, please read what's written.

 

2 hours ago, nikos74 said:

One would have to actually push their arms down and not let their trail elbow hinge to achieve the position depicted in the diagram.

 

This is incorrect. The first image (also below) is showing what one would achieve with the backswing if you just swung back with passive arms.

 

 

1 hour ago, nikos74 said:

Except Eric Cogorno is a high profile teaching pro with many years of experience so I think he knows what he is talking about.

 

As am I. As is @MonteScheinblum. As are the AMG guys. As are a bunch of other people who are telling you that you've got this one wrong.

[nikos74]

16 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

Ok, here is his short video with that title. Have you watched it? He’s talking about grip pressure and removing tension from the arms, and says nothing about “passive arms”. If you watch his swing, he is clearly moving his arms down rapidly from the top, as all good players do:

 

 

I watched the entire video and loved it. First he talks about grip pressure being 4/5 out of 10, then dangling arms or deadweight, lastly the body initiating both the BS and DS.

 

I could post the transcript in it's entirety, but it would likely be a copyright violation and pointless anyway because people will still claim he meant something else than what he said.  Just like GoGoErky claims he doesn't understand what he is teaching.

[johnrobison]

2 hours ago, nikos74 said:

At the top of the BS the lead arm is approximately on the shoulder plane.

How did it get there from address position when you want it to remain passive?

2 hours ago, nikos74 said:

let their trail elbow hinge

What causes the hinge if the arms remain passive?

  

9 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

First he talks about grip pressure being 4/5 out of 10, then dangling arms or deadweight, lastly the body initiating both the BS and DS.

None of which mean that the arms are passive.

Edited July 17, 2024 by johnrobison

[Jeselnik]

On 7/11/2024 at 4:01 PM, MannJ said:

This is where I was at yesterday with it, trying to pull the handle down in downswing to keep the club in front of me. 
 

So no one consciously tries to square the club face, or keep club in position?

I suspect that your ground forces need to be addressed.

 

JNIK

[nikos74]

@GoGoErky You haven't debunked anything and the truth is not based on popularity or how old theories are.  We will have to agree to disagree because I am tired of arguing and the OP waiting for help is probably not benefiting from it.

[nikos74]

30 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

How did it get there from address position when you want it to remain passive?

What causes the hinge if the arms remain passive?

  

None of which mean that the arms are passive.

The arms are active in that they move, but not dominating in that they initiate the BS and DS.

They go along for the ride, they are not glued to the person's abdomen with lock-tite

[GoGoErky]

23 minutes ago, nikos74 said:

@GoGoErky You haven't debunked anything and the truth is not based on popularity or how old theories are.  We will have to agree to disagree because I am tired of arguing and the OP waiting for help is probably not benefiting from it.

I have shown you how wrong you have been in every post you have posted as has actual teaching experts including in

this thread when iacas replied to you.

 

it has nothing to do with popularity but accuracy of information.

 

Nobody is arguing, you don’t accept that you are wrong and continue to post incorrect information about the swing and/or create strawman arguments to defend your incorrect stance.

 

the op has received help but could receive more if people posting incorrect information would stop doing it and the need to have it corrected 

[KD1]

7 hours ago, nikos74 said:

One would have to actually push their arms down and not let their trail elbow hinge to achieve the position depicted in the diagram

 

Yeah, no. Are you being serious right now?

 

22 hours ago, nikos74 said:

It seems to me and others they favor the "let the hands and arms make the body react" narrative.  Data and opinions can be manipulated to push that conclusion.  Can't say for sure because I haven't watched them enough.

 

So in other words you have an uninformed opinion because what they say might be different than what you and some "others" previously thought? That's what makes them "biased and agenda driven"... dude. What's their agenda? Turn the frogs gay by polluting our minds with objective data?

 

[MannJ]

On 7/14/2024 at 5:42 AM, Valtiel said:

@MannJ I agree with Monte and GoGoErky, it's a tempo and technique issue that is causing difficulty in squaring the club.



You early extend a bunch and lose a ton of spine angle, the right side kicking out towards the ball forcing your hands up and out from where they were at address.

Monte's point about tempo often encourages this overall sequencing problem which i'll highlight here + explain how this related to squaring up the face (thank you btw for the solid videos with good angles).



In your initial takeaway we see a very passive lower body in terms of pressure shifting. There is some as we see a slight depressing of your right foot and some movement in your left, but overall it kinda looks like you're trying to push your hips forward/backward before you've actually shifted pressure on to them. This is a bit of a complex thing so it would be good to hear what you're thinking and feeling as it relates to your lower body in takeaway. With Adam we see a very typical pattern in pros; a quick and fairly aggressive shift into the trail side early (note the lateral movement in the knees, hips, and head). He's stacking everything very early because there are about five more move you have to do in a very short time.

A more "central" kind of pivot with minimal lateral shifting can be fine, see my post here with the pro comps, but like any overall pelvic rotation/shifting pattern, it has rules and match ups. You start like you're going to stay "central", but then you shift later in the backswing (see below). This is a common pattern, because to all of this you might be thinking "f*** man I don't know, i'm just trying to take the club back slow and swing smooth, i'm not really thinking about my lower half". If that feels familiar then learning what you *are* supposed to be thinking about is the key. If it doesn't then i'd definitely like to hear what you *are* thinking about.

The "sluggish tempo" problem @MonteScheinblum mentioned encourages all of this.



These next two gifs will show everything being a step late as I mentioned. Up to left arm parallel here (P3) you make your first meaningful shift, similar to what Adam did immediately off the ball, whereas Adam is already closer to maxed out and bracing against that pressure. You can't see it, but the momentum created by swinging the club and your arms away from you naturally *wants* to pull you back, so any amount of *not* moving that way implies internal resistance to that momentum, and when this is a new concept to you, that will feel like you're pushing back towards your lead side off your back leg, this early. Therefore despite what it looks like Adam's body is doing here, he's actually starting push against that braced right leg towards his front leg which is prepping to rotate with that pressure by flexing.

That's all kinda complex, but I say all that to highlight what you're doing here is functionally opposite of what Adam and most pros do. You're going *with* the momentum of the club and your arms as you swing away, allowing your body to shift, whereas pros shift slightly "ahead" of this momentum to meet and actively resist it so as to naturally tilt back towards the front side.



This is where you see the big difference. In going with the momentum of the club you continue stacking up on your bag leg all the way to the top of the backswing. Adam meanwhile is able to sort of tip/twist back towards his front leg for this reason; in shifting pressure quickly and early to brace against the momentum of swinging the club, the "release" of that momentum when the arms starting to swing back towards the target in the latter half of the backswing "frees up" that brace against it to tip the lower body back towards the target.

Again, kinda annoyingly complex stuff, and my description above is a bit illustrative in that many people that do this correctly might not agree with that way of describing it, or simply "feel" it much different than that sounds, but the underlying pattern is the same no matter what the approach is:

1) Establish your trail side stability/resistance/pillar very early in takeaway
2) Load against it for roughly the first 50-75% of the backswing
3) Drift off of it and towards your lead side in the last portion of the backswing
4) Begin your downswing after pressure has sufficiently increased in your front leg to begin using it for rotation

This is *all* a big song and dance to get pressure and momentum into your front side *before* the downswing starts (more on that below). The ratios of each step above and the feels to create them will vary from person to person. Henrik Stenson for example does #1 before he even takes the club away and nearly skips directly to #3 as soon as the club starts moving, which matches up with his quick tempo. Ernie Els as Monte referenced earlier does the opposite which suits his long, languid tempo. He makes a *huge* shift to the right and takes much longer to establish that back post, then makes a quick shift at the top of the swing followed by a lot of vertical force from the left side to eject out of the way. Most pros fall between these two extremes, and the average player doesn't even know any of them exist.

Since this has already gone on awhile, i'll just bullet point why this matters for face control:

- Incorrectly timed/sequenced pressure shifting can lead to too much weight on the back leg at the top of the backswing.
- Your brain/body can only create pelvic rotation via using the ground (whichever leg has pressure on it) so if the downswing starts with too much pressure favoring the back leg, that's what you'll use to rotate. Since the right hip can't go backwards to do this, it has to go forwards....towards the ball.
- Rotating towards the ball means a bunch of things are forced to break down in order to make contact. Hands come up/out, spine straightens, arms extend etc etc.
- All the breakdowns make it harder to control the face, like an infielder having to navigate around a runner to chase down a fly ball.

All of this is doubly harmful towards flatter, deeper backswings like yours currently. The plane of a flatter swing being inherently more tilted/horizontal means anything that moves on that same axis, like your body towards the ball, will require more compensations to get to the ball. There have been some early extenders in high level golf, virtually ALL of them have had very high hands and shallower positions in the backswing so early extension doesn't upset things as much.

In terms of resources for all this, the oft shared AMG Hip Turn video, Monte discusses it here, and overall it's something needs to be digested and integrated into your overall swing in order to stabilize the clubface via not interfering with it's path to the ball.

I read an article on weight shift last night where the guy demonstrated pretty much what you described here but he emphasized a straitening of the lead leg, kind of a heel stomp thing, at the end. 
 

Should that move be incorporated?

 

I tried this a couple times and it seemed to keep me on the tush line BUT I caught the ball very low on the face?

[iacas]

24 minutes ago, MannJ said:

I read an article on weight shift last night where the guy demonstrated pretty much what you described here but he emphasized a straitening of the lead leg, kind of a heel stomp thing, at the end. 
 

Should that move be incorporated?

 

Eventually, but you're not there right now.

[Hilts1969]

On 7/16/2024 at 9:06 PM, nikos74 said:

Turning from the hips and up with a 1 piece takeaway means the shoulders are turning and thus the arms put the club on the correct swing path in the backswing.  Then with the downswing the same happens as the body unwinds.  There is a pivot to start the BS and a pivot to start the DS.  Of course the arms come down and out because his chest is covering the ball at impact.

 

Wow haha

 

That's so wrong it has to be a joke? 

 

What its not? Okay carry on then but thanks for the unintentional humour.

[MannJ]

Today 

I know it’s DTL. Face on is hard to do at the range. 

I feel like I’m getting all the pressure I can to the left before I start ds, but I’m still losing it a bit 

If anything sticks out please let me know. 
Thanks

[iacas]

1 hour ago, MannJ said:

I feel like I’m getting all the pressure I can to the left before I start ds, but I’m still losing it a bit 

 

Why are you worrying about that?

 

Your weight is back in your feet, toward your heels:

 

 

So you extend in the backswing:

 

 

It's just my opinion, but more of this:

 

 

 

Be an athlete. Get up on the front of your arches at setup instead of settling down towards your heels or ankles.

[johnrobison]

11 hours ago, nikos74 said:

The arms are active in that they move, but not dominating in that they initiate the BS and DS.

They go along for the ride, they are not glued to the person's abdomen with lock-tite

Sorry but I can't reconcile "the arms are active" and "the arms go along for the ride".

You said the arms are passive. I'm super confused right now.

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, johnrobison said:

Sorry but I can't reconcile "the arms are active" and "the arms go along for the ride".

You said the arms are passive. I'm super confused right now.

Enslada palabra 

Edited July 18, 2024 by MonteScheinblum

[Valtiel]

Weird double post, ignore.

I do love when I leave this tab open on my browser and I come back the next day to:

Edited July 18, 2024 by Valtiel

[MannJ]

11 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Why are you worrying about that?

 

Your weight is back in your feet, toward your heels:

 

 

So you extend in the backswing:

 

 

It's just my opinion, but more of this:

 

 

 

Be an athlete. Get up on the front of your arches at setup instead of settling down towards your heels or ankles.

I have been trying to get my pressure adequately forward before the downswing begins to allow the lead side to rotate away from the ball as I downswing. To prevent ee. 
 

On the posture, is it okay to have the weight all the way on the balls of my feet at address?

[MannJ]

18 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Why are you worrying about that?

 

Your weight is back in your feet, toward your heels:

 

 

So you extend in the backswing:

 

 I’ve been trying to wrap my head around this today. If I lean forward my butt goes back, so does the illustration above show that I should stand more upright?

[MannJ]

 I’ve been trying to wrap my head around this today. If I lean forward my butt goes back, so does the illustration above show that I should stand more upright?

[Nard_S]

1 hour ago, MannJ said:

 I’ve been trying to wrap my head around this today. If I lean forward my butt goes back, so does the illustration above show that I should stand more upright?

Would guess a bit more knee flex & less flex at waist.

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, MannJ said:

 I’ve been trying to wrap my head around this today. If I lean forward my butt goes back, so does the illustration above show that I should stand more upright?

 

 

[iacas]

9 hours ago, MannJ said:

I have been trying to get my pressure adequately forward before the downswing begins to allow the lead side to rotate away from the ball as I downswing. To prevent ee.
 

On the posture, is it okay to have the weight all the way on the balls of my feet at address?

 

Do it at setup.

 

2 hours ago, MannJ said:

 I’ve been trying to wrap my head around this today. If I lean forward my butt goes back, so does the illustration above show that I should stand more upright?

 

Try this:

• Put your heels (in golf shoes) about 2 or 2-1/2 inches from a wall (a baseboard is probably 1/2").
• Set up with your 7I.
• Feel that your butt is barely touching the wall.
• Maintaining almost all of the same angles, move your weight forward (your ankles should go into more extension, but your knees, hips, etc. should stay about the same).

Like the poster frame of the Porzak video, you should be able to hang a club down from your hip joint and have it go through your ankle at some point - yours goes behind your foot entirely, not even in your heel.

 

You're going to feel out on your toes at first. You're not. You have another four inches plus to move your weight toward your toes before you're actually on your toes.