What do you do to square the club face on downswing?

[MannJ]

14 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Do it at setup.

 

 

Try this:

• Put your heels (in golf shoes) about 2 or 2-1/2 inches from a wall (a baseboard is probably 1/2").
• Set up with your 7I.
• Feel that your butt is barely touching the wall.
• Maintaining almost all of the same angles, move your weight forward (your ankles should go into more extension, but your knees, hips, etc. should stay about the same).

Like the poster frame of the Porzak video, you should be able to hang a club down from your hip joint and have it go through your ankle at some point - yours goes behind your foot entirely, not even in your heel.

 

You're going to feel out on your toes at first. You're not. You have another four inches plus to move your weight toward your toes before you're actually on your toes.

Closer but not quite there. I assume I lost it because set up was still a little hips still a bit too far back and I didn’t nail the pressure shift. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 19, 2024 by MannJ
Too many photos

[NoTalentLefty]

I don’t know. Use to but dam if I remember. It just happens???

[TUCKITIN]

11 hours ago, MannJ said:

Closer but not quite there. I assume I lost it because set up was still a little hips still a bit too far back and I didn’t nail the pressure shift. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

What app are you using? Pretty neat.

[TUCKITIN]

On 7/17/2024 at 10:23 AM, slytown said:

Squaring the face to the arc and squaring the face to the target are two different things. Ideally you would square the face to the arc with arms, hands, and wrists, then square the face to target with upper body rotation.

That's how I like to think about it as well.

[MannJ]

2 hours ago, TUCKITIN said:

What app are you using? Pretty neat.

Onform. It’s pretty cool and free

[MannJ]

On 7/14/2024 at 5:42 AM, Valtiel said:

@MannJ I agree with Monte and GoGoErky, it's a tempo and technique issue that is causing difficulty in squaring the club.



You early extend a bunch and lose a ton of spine angle, the right side kicking out towards the ball forcing your hands up and out from where they were at address.

Monte's point about tempo often encourages this overall sequencing problem which i'll highlight here + explain how this related to squaring up the face (thank you btw for the solid videos with good angles).



In your initial takeaway we see a very passive lower body in terms of pressure shifting. There is some as we see a slight depressing of your right foot and some movement in your left, but overall it kinda looks like you're trying to push your hips forward/backward before you've actually shifted pressure on to them. This is a bit of a complex thing so it would be good to hear what you're thinking and feeling as it relates to your lower body in takeaway. With Adam we see a very typical pattern in pros; a quick and fairly aggressive shift into the trail side early (note the lateral movement in the knees, hips, and head). He's stacking everything very early because there are about five more move you have to do in a very short time.

A more "central" kind of pivot with minimal lateral shifting can be fine, see my post here with the pro comps, but like any overall pelvic rotation/shifting pattern, it has rules and match ups. You start like you're going to stay "central", but then you shift later in the backswing (see below). This is a common pattern, because to all of this you might be thinking "f*** man I don't know, i'm just trying to take the club back slow and swing smooth, i'm not really thinking about my lower half". If that feels familiar then learning what you *are* supposed to be thinking about is the key. If it doesn't then i'd definitely like to hear what you *are* thinking about.

The "sluggish tempo" problem @MonteScheinblum mentioned encourages all of this.



These next two gifs will show everything being a step late as I mentioned. Up to left arm parallel here (P3) you make your first meaningful shift, similar to what Adam did immediately off the ball, whereas Adam is already closer to maxed out and bracing against that pressure. You can't see it, but the momentum created by swinging the club and your arms away from you naturally *wants* to pull you back, so any amount of *not* moving that way implies internal resistance to that momentum, and when this is a new concept to you, that will feel like you're pushing back towards your lead side off your back leg, this early. Therefore despite what it looks like Adam's body is doing here, he's actually starting push against that braced right leg towards his front leg which is prepping to rotate with that pressure by flexing.

That's all kinda complex, but I say all that to highlight what you're doing here is functionally opposite of what Adam and most pros do. You're going *with* the momentum of the club and your arms as you swing away, allowing your body to shift, whereas pros shift slightly "ahead" of this momentum to meet and actively resist it so as to naturally tilt back towards the front side.



This is where you see the big difference. In going with the momentum of the club you continue stacking up on your bag leg all the way to the top of the backswing. Adam meanwhile is able to sort of tip/twist back towards his front leg for this reason; in shifting pressure quickly and early to brace against the momentum of swinging the club, the "release" of that momentum when the arms starting to swing back towards the target in the latter half of the backswing "frees up" that brace against it to tip the lower body back towards the target.

Again, kinda annoyingly complex stuff, and my description above is a bit illustrative in that many people that do this correctly might not agree with that way of describing it, or simply "feel" it much different than that sounds, but the underlying pattern is the same no matter what the approach is:

1) Establish your trail side stability/resistance/pillar very early in takeaway
2) Load against it for roughly the first 50-75% of the backswing
3) Drift off of it and towards your lead side in the last portion of the backswing
4) Begin your downswing after pressure has sufficiently increased in your front leg to begin using it for rotation

This is *all* a big song and dance to get pressure and momentum into your front side *before* the downswing starts (more on that below). The ratios of each step above and the feels to create them will vary from person to person. Henrik Stenson for example does #1 before he even takes the club away and nearly skips directly to #3 as soon as the club starts moving, which matches up with his quick tempo. Ernie Els as Monte referenced earlier does the opposite which suits his long, languid tempo. He makes a *huge* shift to the right and takes much longer to establish that back post, then makes a quick shift at the top of the swing followed by a lot of vertical force from the left side to eject out of the way. Most pros fall between these two extremes, and the average player doesn't even know any of them exist.

Since this has already gone on awhile, i'll just bullet point why this matters for face control:

- Incorrectly timed/sequenced pressure shifting can lead to too much weight on the back leg at the top of the backswing.
- Your brain/body can only create pelvic rotation via using the ground (whichever leg has pressure on it) so if the downswing starts with too much pressure favoring the back leg, that's what you'll use to rotate. Since the right hip can't go backwards to do this, it has to go forwards....towards the ball.
- Rotating towards the ball means a bunch of things are forced to break down in order to make contact. Hands come up/out, spine straightens, arms extend etc etc.
- All the breakdowns make it harder to control the face, like an infielder having to navigate around a runner to chase down a fly ball.

All of this is doubly harmful towards flatter, deeper backswings like yours currently. The plane of a flatter swing being inherently more tilted/horizontal means anything that moves on that same axis, like your body towards the ball, will require more compensations to get to the ball. There have been some early extenders in high level golf, virtually ALL of them have had very high hands and shallower positions in the backswing so early extension doesn't upset things as much.

In terms of resources for all this, the oft shared AMG Hip Turn video, Monte discusses it here, and overall it's something needs to be digested and integrated into your overall swing in order to stabilize the clubface via not interfering with it's path to the ball.

I have been working on all of this and had a question I am not able to clearly find an answer to. Is the drifting motion at the end of the backswing primarily just a hip/mid section drift, or is it more of the upper body/back?

 

Also, what do you think of tucking the pelvis under to allow more weight to be centered over my ankles at address?  It seems eventually the pelvis gets in a more tucked position anyways 

[Valtiel]

7 minutes ago, MannJ said:

I have been working on all of this and had a question I am not able to clearly find an answer to. Is the drifting motion at the end of the backswing primarily just a hip/mid section drift, or is it more of the upper body/back?

 

Also, what do you think of tucking the pelvis under to allow more weight to be centered over my ankles at address?  It seems eventually the pelvis gets in a more tucked position anyways 

A good "tucked" feeling is appropriate, yes. More forward tilt in the shins is one of the goals in doing this correctly. 

And you'll want to feel the drifting motion being hip driven, yes. If you shift your whole body you setup a flip/cast situation via simply being too far out in front of the ball. 

[ProV1Killa]

This might sound over simplified, but I don't try to square the clubface.  Trying to manipulate the face through impact just creates tension in the fast twitch muscles.  Those muscles need to be relaxed.  By design the toe of the club squares itself if allowed to.  The real challenge is getting the clubhead in a good position in transition to allow to free wheel on the proper plane and path while syncing the arms and body.

[MannJ]

On 7/24/2024 at 8:15 AM, Valtiel said:

A good "tucked" feeling is appropriate, yes. More forward tilt in the shins is one of the goals in doing this correctly. 

And you'll want to feel the drifting motion being hip driven, yes. If you shift your whole body you setup a flip/cast situation via simply being too far out in front of the ball. 

I am keeping the tush line on about half of my swings, and I’m pretty sure on those I am nailing the pressure shift. I have done this enough the past week I can kind of 

feel when I do and when I don’t usually. 
I am not sure I am making great contact though. Between focusing on my set up, trying to not pull the club to far inside, getting pressure to the trail early, drifting as I reach the top, shifting a bit and trying to get lead side pressure turn my hips into the downswing 😳 I have a lot going on. Maybe in the next week or two I will make better contact more consistently. 
I will try to take all this nonsense to the course this weekend. 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2024 by MannJ

[Valtiel]

37 minutes ago, MannJ said:

Between focusing on my set up, trying to not pull the club to far inside, getting pressure to the trail early, drifting as I reach the top, shifting a bit and trying to get lead side pressure turn my hips into the downswing 😳 I have a lot going on. Maybe in the next week or two I will make better contact more consistently. 

 

Realistically you should allow for at least a month or two, not weeks. You're right, it's a lot of stuff, and you're still likely to be hampered a bit by the overly slow backswing. 

As for pressure shift, can't comment until we see a face on view. 

[Nels55]

On 7/17/2024 at 8:04 AM, iacas said:

This is incorrect. The first image (also below) is showing what one would achieve with the backswing if you just swung back with passive arms.

 

You know I have a picture of myself in that position from around 20 years ago.  I was responding to a Simple Swing advocate who said that all you have to do is turn the shoulders with passive arms and you will have a perfect backswing.  

 

The truth is that if the arms were truly passive the club would be dropped and the arms would be hanging straight down at that point.

[MannJ]

10 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Realistically you should allow for at least a month or two, not weeks. You're right, it's a lot of stuff, and you're still likely to be hampered a bit by the overly slow backswing. 

As for pressure shift, can't comment until we see a face on view. 

I had conveniently forgot about the bs tempo. Maybe that is why the contact felt toe-y. 

[MannJ]

On 7/25/2024 at 9:35 PM, Valtiel said:

Realistically you should allow for at least a month or two, not weeks. You're right, it's a lot of stuff, and you're still likely to be hampered a bit by the overly slow backswing. 

As for pressure shift, can't comment until we see a face on view. 

So today I played the worst round I’ve had in 30 years. I didn’t expect to instantly improve my score by trying to implement all of these changes, but I never imagined I would have shot 101. 101. ☹️I have a 7.5 on GHIN right now. I haven’t been in the 90s the past couple years except for maybe a winter round. 
I am not sure what to think. I went to the range several times trying to sink this stuff in. Yeah my short game was crap, super awful, but not 101 bad. Obviously everything I worked on fell apart and left me in a really bad place. 

I am wondering, should I abandon all this and just do what’s comfortable. Try to get as consistent as possible with my normal comfortable ee swing? 

[iacas]

8 minutes ago, MannJ said:

I am wondering, should I abandon all this and just do what’s comfortable. Try to get as consistent as possible with my normal comfortable ee swing? 

 

You should…

• practice on the range
• play on the golf course

Feels like you maybe mixed up the two. Also, I have no idea how well you practice, or what you're practicing. If something you do in practice helps you play better, sure, use that one swing thought (which is really just a feel that does something) when you play, but when shooting a score… just get the ball in the hole. Don't "practice." Unless you're just out at your home course practicing on the fairways with a bunch of crappy balls you don't care about or something.

[MannJ]

On 7/25/2024 at 9:35 PM, Valtiel said:

Realistically you should allow for at least a month or two, not weeks. You're right, it's a lot of stuff, and you're still likely to be hampered a bit by the overly slow backswing. 

As for pressure shift, can't comment until we see a face on view. 

Can I over do this pressure shift thing at the top?  If so would it be because I have moved too far towards the target?

[dmwp]

Some simple neuro science to consider.

 Over Half of the brains motor cortex, and control of movement is designated to the hands.

It is a neurological fact  that the hands dictate pelvic movements, That is simply a part of our evolution.

ALL pelvic movements are thus a response to that the hands tell the brain, AND NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND.

 

It is therefore ludicrous,  scientifically to think the hands are not active when delivering the clubface into impact.

Especially when considering the hands are the ONLY contact one has with the club.

For further explanation , treat yourselves and listen to the  MIND CADDIE podcast with Mark Bull, who is the undisputed leading authority on swing mechanics and dont take it from a neuro geek like myself

[GoGoErky]

5 hours ago, dmwp said:

Some simple neuro science to consider.

 Over Half of the brains motor cortex, and control of movement is designated to the hands.

It is a neurological fact  that the hands dictate pelvic movements, That is simply a part of our evolution.

ALL pelvic movements are thus a response to that the hands tell the brain, AND NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND.

 

It is therefore ludicrous,  scientifically to think the hands are not active when delivering the clubface into impact.

Especially when considering the hands are the ONLY contact one has with the club.

For further explanation , treat yourselves and listen to the  MIND CADDIE podcast with Mark Bull, who is the undisputed leading authority on swing mechanics and dont take it from a neuro geek like myself

Can you provide the scientific data and studies especially about the bolded part

[Pnwpingi210]

5 hours ago, dmwp said:

Some simple neuro science to consider.

 Over Half of the brains motor cortex, and control of movement is designated to the hands.

It is a neurological fact  that the hands dictate pelvic movements, That is simply a part of our evolution.

ALL pelvic movements are thus a response to that the hands tell the brain, AND NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND.

 

It is therefore ludicrous,  scientifically to think the hands are not active when delivering the clubface into impact.

Especially when considering the hands are the ONLY contact one has with the club.

For further explanation , treat yourselves and listen to the  MIND CADDIE podcast with Mark Bull, who is the undisputed leading authority on swing mechanics and dont take it from a neuro geek like myself

[GoGoErky]

48 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

Came on with a banger of a first post.

 

It was so crazy i was just waving my hands all over the place and my pelvis was going every which way. Had to explain to the person sorry about that my pelvis moves when I move my hands 

[Pnwpingi210]

9 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Came on with a banger of a first post.

 

It was so crazy i was just waving my hands all over the place and my pelvis was going every which way. Had to explain to the person sorry about that my pelvis moves when I move my hands 

You can’t make stuff like that post up.

[Nels55]

Here is a mind caddie / Mark Bull youtube episode:

 

[dmwp]

14 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Can you provide the scientific data and studies especially about the bolded part

Like I said…don’t take my word …as a neuro geek …for it.

listen to what the IMO the leading golf biomechanist has to say .

As for studies enhancing the facts…there are literally thousands of scientific studies that evaluate percentage of brain 🧠 allocation to both senses and movement .

Heavy reading for the most part , I was simply summing up the facts.

 

One step further is the combined allocation of the brain to the sight and hands combo……now we are as high as 75% of all human movement is governed by that combination.

 

 

As Mr Bull says

“I can tell a student to do something with the hands in say delivery and will always get a response from the pelvis , but if I ask for a modification  of pelvic movement …may never see any change in delivery.

 

 

I am not taking sides in this discussion, just throwing in some information that may be relevant to deep thinking minds 

[dmwp]

11 hours ago, Nels55 said:

Here is a mind caddie / Mark Bull youtube episode:

 

Thank you for posting 

[Pnwpingi210]

15 minutes ago, dmwp said:

Like I said…don’t take my word …as a neuro geek …for it.

listen to what the IMO the leading golf biomechanist has to say .

As for studies enhancing the facts…there are literally thousands of scientific studies that evaluate percentage of brain 🧠 allocation to both senses and movement .

Heavy reading for the most part , I was simply summing up the facts.

 

One step further is the combined allocation of the brain to the sight and hands combo……now we are as high as 75% of all human movement is governed by that combination.

 

 

As Mr Bull says

“I can tell a student to do something with the hands in say delivery and will always get a response from the pelvis , but if I ask for a modification  of pelvic movement …may never see any change in delivery.

 

 

I am not taking sides in this discussion, just throwing in some information that may be relevant to deep thinking minds 

I can move my pelvis independent of my hands.

 

i can move my hands independent of my pelvis.

[dmwp]

I am sure you can…because yo tell your brain to do so.

Now reach for a glass of water 6 feet away…your pelvis follows your hands… UNLESS you make it do otherwise .

Hey Iam not trying to convince you of anything and certainly don’t care what you think on this issue.

Just stating big picture neurological facts…do with it what you want .

I simply don’t care .

[Pnwpingi210]

4 minutes ago, dmwp said:

I am sure you can…because yo tell your brain to do so.

Now reach for a glass of water 6 feet away…your pelvis follows your hands… UNLESS you make it do otherwise .

Hey Iam not trying to convince you of anything and certainly don’t care what you think on this issue.

Just stating big picture neurological facts…do with it what you want .

I simply don’t care .

[GoGoErky]

45 minutes ago, dmwp said:

Like I said…don’t take my word …as a neuro geek …for it.

listen to what the IMO the leading golf biomechanist has to say .

As for studies enhancing the facts…there are literally thousands of scientific studies that evaluate percentage of brain 🧠 allocation to both senses and movement .

Heavy reading for the most part , I was simply summing up the facts.

 

One step further is the combined allocation of the brain to the sight and hands combo……now we are as high as 75% of all human movement is governed by that combination.

 

 

As Mr Bull says

“I can tell a student to do something with the hands in say delivery and will always get a response from the pelvis , but if I ask for a modification  of pelvic movement …may never see any change in delivery.

 

 

I am not taking sides in this discussion, just throwing in some information that may be relevant to deep thinking minds 

Im not taking your word for it and sig there are thousands of studies you should easily be able to link them and backup your claim.

You’re taking sides by making a claim. Backup the claim with the data

 

[GoGoErky]

7 minutes ago, dmwp said:

I am sure you can…because yo tell your brain to do so.

Now reach for a glass of water 6 feet away…your pelvis follows your hands… UNLESS you make it do otherwise .

Hey Iam not trying to convince you of anything and certainly don’t care what you think on this issue.

Just stating big picture neurological facts…do with it what you want .

I simply don’t care .

You obviously care because you seem to be passionate about it and made an account here to post specifically on the subject.

 

 

[Pnwpingi210]

11 minutes ago, dmwp said:

I am sure you can…because yo tell your brain to do so.

Now reach for a glass of water 6 feet away…your pelvis follows your hands… UNLESS you make it do otherwise .

Hey Iam not trying to convince you of anything and certainly don’t care what you think on this issue.

Just stating big picture neurological facts…do with it what you want .

I simply don’t care .

I’m sitting right now, just took a drink of water and sat the vessel back down on the table.  Pelvis didn’t move an inch.

 

if your telling me I need to walk 6 ft away to get the glass of water the yes the pelvis moves but not because of my hands, but because of the physical location of the water.

 

you can’t be serious with this?

Edited March 11 by Pnwpingi210

[dmwp]

34 minutes ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

I can move my pelvis independent of my hands.

 

i can move my hands independent of my pelvis.

Rather more difficult to do in complicated motor patterns like a golf swing, than just sitting there🤔

The ability to dissociate body parts from each other is also a major factor in one’s ability to acquire skill..ie learning…as such sometimes when we “ feel” like turning the hips independently of any hand or arm movement , you are deliberately telling your brain to do so, which alters the normal pattern of ecological development 

in a highly complicated movement pattern like the golf swing however , that occurs in such a short space of time, such control is nigh on impossible