forearm rotation through impact and release?

[Dewdman42]

So I see a lot of conflicting opinion and advice, and have heard completely opposing points of view from instructors during my lessons over the years on this point and I would really like to hear arguments, statements and data about this point of what the forearms should be doing rotationally P6-P8 (supination or pronation as it were).  I am constantly second guessing myself at this point about what I should be allowing to happen.

 

My current thinking is as follows and I have no idea if I am right or wrong on some of these points, I keep second guessing myself:

 

1. I use a fairly neutral grip.  
    
2. I strive to have flat left wrist at the top
    
3. I am not yet trying any motorcycle grip move at transition to bow the left wrist or turn the right hand clockwise, though I have played around with it, getting mixed results 
    
4. At impact I am trying to have my left hand in a neutral position relative to my body at moment of impact, basically what I mean is if i let my left arm just hang down, the pronation/supination of that forearm will hang in a neutral position, so if I do that with my torso open a bit as I hope to have in the swing at impact with some shaft lean, that kind of gives me the position I am expecting that hand to be in at impact if I swing without thinking about it or trying to rotate the forearm...in other words, without trying to do some kind of thoughtful bowing of the left wrist, either at transition or during the downswing.
    
5. I am under the notion, right or wrong, that I want my Left hand to un-hinge prior to impact, caused by centrifugal forces and parametric acceleration of the clubhead.  I want the RH to remain extended through impact.  Its not clear to me whether the right forearm should be rotating P6-P8, but I think I am currently trying not to let it.
    
6. I am under the notion, right or wrong, that my pivot will bring the club face square and I should NOT try to use my hands in some way to roll the club face closed through forearm rotation or early releasing of RH extension.
    
7. I am under the notion, right or wrong, that after impact with the ball, my forearms should suddenly be allowed to rotate quite a lot, combined with the right wrist releasing its extension and perhaps even moving into flexion by virtue of momentum taking the club that way.

 

So the above basically means in my own mind I am NOT trying to roll the club face closed with my hands at all P6-P8, I am specifically trying to avoid that kind of manipulation and instead focus on my pivot happening fully to close the face down and avoiding other traps such as shoving the handle forward (opening the face), etc.  Basically I'm trying to preserve the very hand position that I establish at transition and mostly maintain that through impact except for the LH un-hinging, but specifically not allowing rotation of my forearms until after impact.

 

I am currently subscribed to Clay Ballard's topspeedgolf and he has one video where he visits this point and suggests both alternatives as valid stating that he himself prefers rolling the hands through impact; ..meaning allowing the release of the hands to begin a bit more prior to impact which he states causes the toe of the club to swing radially a bit more through impact, increasing effective clubhead speed on the ball, and also he claims that this may be easier on the body than entirely relying on the body pivot to close down the face.   He and others have also stated this approach may require more talent to pull off consistently.

 

Alright...  give it to me...roll the club over through impact yes or not and please include “why”.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2024 by Dewdman42

[glk]

 

 

The trail and lead wrist both start supinating just prior to p6 and the lead wrist continues thru p7 while the trail wrist begins to pronate just before p7.      Below are lead and trail wrist 3D graphs of Grant Waite and Steve Elkington which were used by Tyler Ferrell in a presentation he gave back in 2018 on arm movements of elite golfers - Waite and Elkington where used as two example of the general pattern of the three movements of the forearms and wrists - pattern is similar but the amount and timing can differ.     Of interest for sup/pro is the blue line - line going up is supination and going down is pronation - crossing the midline indicates where the forearm is supinated or pronated (above is supinated -below is pronated - so a forearm can be pronated but moving toward supination and vice versa.

 

As one example, Elk's adn Waite's lead forearms start supinated and moves toward pronating which happens prior to reaching the top then it pronates before beginning to supinate and it is supinated (or in Elk's case still slightly pronated) by impact .   Both trail and lead wrists are supinated prior to impact and trail wrist begins to pronate right before impact.

 

As you can see the wrists and forearms are constantly moving thru the swing.   No one any good is trying to hold anything or force anything.

 

You do need a subscription (can take a 7 day free trial) to Golf Smart Academy to see the video as Tyler has not posted it to his youtube but I've posted one of his youtube video on supination (looking at lead arm only) where he shows patterns pros and amateurs with some drills to improve.

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2024 by glk

[Lefthook]

Post two videos of your swing, one face on and the other down the line. Those are required to put your own assessment in a proper context. 

[Dewdman42]

6 minutes ago, glk said:

so a forearm can be pronated but moving toward supination and vice versa.

 

so to clarify, I am interested  per this OP in hearing about movements, not positions.  being "pronated" as you put it implies some kind of pronated position that comes about because of having executed some earlier pronation movements.   its the actual movements in the downswing, particularly through P6-P8  I am interested in as pertains to rolling the club face closed with the arms and hands as opposed to pivoting the the hips to deliver a square club face.

 

sorry but there will be no video of myself posted here.  But I am interested in hearing everyone's general opinions on this topic in a more general way.

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2024 by Dewdman42

[glk]

1 hour ago, Dewdman42 said:

 

so to clarify, I am interested  per this OP in hearing about movements, not positions.  being "pronated" as you put it implies some kind of pronated position that comes about because of having executed some earlier pronation movements.   its the actual movements in the downswing, particularly through P6-P8  I am interested in as pertains to rolling the club face closed with the arms and hands as opposed to pivoting the the hips to deliver a square club face.

 

sorry but there will be no video of myself posted here.  But I am interested in hearing everyone's general opinions on this topic in a more general way.

 

 

 

Tyler's graphs which I attached and discussed show the movement.  As well as in the video I attached.   These movements have been measured.  Some people get confused over the motion versus  position thus I wanted to head off any confusion.

Edited July 14, 2024 by glk

[Dewdman42]

so the above recommendation from one source to rotate the wrists through impact is definitely what some people have endorsed over the years and some have said the opposite especially in recent years, that is exactly the reason I am asking, I personally do not hear universal consensus on this matter.  

 

How does someone time the rotation of the wrists exactly so that the club face will end up square at impact?  Despite the fact that a couple pros have been measured doing this and there might be many pros doing this, I'm not sure all pros are doing this and I would like to know WHY they are specifically doing this.  What is the need to be rotating the lead wrist through P6-P7, or either wrist actually?  On the surface that seems more error prone?  Timing the rotation of the wrists after P7 is much less timing-critical and certainly that much happens for a textbook follow through.  The question is really about P6-P7 if the wrists should rotate...and if so...why?

 

I feel also that unless the lead wrist is fully unhinged (un deviated?  Not sure the correct term), then the supination of that lead wrist would need to be combined with flexión (bowing) of the lead wrist in order to keep the clubhead online while twisting the lead wrist, and particularly in the moments before the lead wrist is fully unhinged.  

 

I have to think some more about the interaction between the two hands when in an interlocked or well secured overlap grip, if the lead hand is both flexing (bowing) and supinating prior to P7...perhaps if the the trail wrist starts to pronate literally just barely before P7 impact...but then, how do we time that in our swing?  

 

Not everyone goes for the highly bowed, back of the hand facing the target position of the lead wrist at impact, so do all these facts about rolling the hands even make sense if you are not doing that?

 

And again, what is the specific advantage of this when it seems to introduce much more possibility for timing errors?

 

some of the videos shown of some pros in the video above seem to have quite a lot more of the lead wrist supination happening after impact honestly, that doesn't match the two graphs that have been presented above, but that is what I saw on first viewing, quite a lot of wrist rotating and rollover happening after impact, which does not really match the graphs showing the impact right in the middle of the ~100 degrees of measured wrist rotation.

 

But in any case, i'm definitely not saying it's not possible to roll the hands through impact, people have been doing that for decades successfully, but as I said in recent years I have heard opposing opinions about that, and so I'm asking why do it?  And if not, why not?  What to do if not?

 

This does seem like more moving parts to me and to be able to consistently square the club face seems more difficult.  if there is some tremendous gain that makes it worth it, what is that gain?

 

 

Edited July 14, 2024 by Dewdman42

[glk]

10 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

so the above recommendation from one source to rotate the wrists through impact is definitely what some people have endorsed over the years and some have said the opposite especially in recent years, that is exactly the reason I am asking, I personally do not hear universal consensus on this matter.  

 

How does someone time the rotation of the wrists exactly so that the club face will end up square at impact?  Despite the fact that a couple pros have been measured doing this and there might be many pros doing this, I'm not sure all pros are doing this and I would like to know WHY they are specifically doing this.  What is the need to be rotating the lead wrist through P6-P7, or either wrist actually?  On the surface that seems more error prone?  Timing the rotation of the wrists after P7 is much less timing-critical and certainly that much happens for a textbook follow through.  The question is really about P6-P7 if the wrists should rotate...and if so...why?

 

I feel also that unless the lead wrist is fully unhinged (un deviated?  Not sure the correct term), then the supination of that lead wrist would need to be combined with flexión (bowing) of the lead wrist in order to keep the clubhead online while twisting the lead wrist, and particularly in the moments before the lead wrist is fully unhinged.  

 

I have to think some more about the interaction between the two hands when in an interlocked or well secured overlap grip, if the lead hand is both flexing (bowing) and supinating prior to P7...perhaps if the the trail wrist starts to pronate literally just barely before P7 impact...but then, how do we time that in our swing?  

 

Not everyone goes for the highly bowed, back of the hand facing the target position of the lead wrist at impact, so do all these facts about rolling the hands even make sense if you are not doing that?

 

And again, what is the specific advantage of this when it seems to introduce much more possibility for timing errors?

 

some of the videos shown of some pros in the video above seem to have quite a lot more of the lead wrist supination happening after impact honestly, that doesn't match the two graphs that have been presented above, but that is what I saw on first viewing, quite a lot of wrist rotating and rollover happening after impact, which does not really match the graphs showing the impact right in the middle of the ~100 degrees of measured wrist rotation.

 

But in any case, i'm definitely not saying it's not possible to roll the hands through impact, people have been doing that for decades successfully, but as I said in recent years I have heard opposing opinions about that, and so I'm asking why do it?  And if not, why not?  What to do if not?

 

This does seem like more moving parts to me and to be able to consistently square the club face seems more difficult.  if there is some tremendous gain that makes it worth it, what is that gain?

 

 

Hundreds if not thousands of pros have been measured.    I suggest you take a trial subscription to Tyler's site and watch his video on arm movements of elite golfers among  his well organized 1000 videos.  Tyler is just one of many instructors and researchers that have measured these motions.

You'll only be able to watch 45 secs without a subscription.

https://www.golfsmartacademy.com/golf-instruction/wgfs-2018-arm-movements-elite-golfers/

Edited July 14, 2024 by glk

[Dewdman42]

Why, do hundreds, if not thousands of pros, according to you, do it that way?

[glk]

1 minute ago, Dewdman42 said:

Why, do hundreds, if not thousands of pros, according to you, do it that way?

Many amateurs do it too.    Cause it has been measured and these  are the motions of a quality swing.  If you watch Tyler's video in my first post you will gain some better understanding of what these motion do in a swing as well as what issues doing them poorly creates.

 

 

[Dewdman42]

13 minutes ago, glk said:

You'll only be able to watch 45 secs without a subscription.

https://www.golfsmartacademy.com/golf-instruction/wgfs-2018-arm-movements-elite-golfers/

 

I'm currently subscribed to another site, topspeedgolf, I will definitely keep golfsmartacademy on the radar for the future though..  But anyway, this doesn't really answer the question being asked.  We can find teaching pros on both side of this question, thanks for letting me know that GolfsmartAcademy takes a strong position in rolling the wrists prior to impact, will keep that in mind..  

 

I'm trying to dig a little deeper, I'm not even sure which side I'm on either BTW, if I ask you questions back its not because i neceessarily disagree, I'm just trying to dig deeper.  I do not think there is universal consensus, but if you think so, then please convince me with more reasons why besides "everyone else is doing it so it must be right"

 

just one example of opposing view, would be the infamous Pete Cowen video with Danny Maude...spin it down, etc.. where he basically takes a directly opposing view of this topic.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2024 by Dewdman42

[glk]

10 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

 

I'm currently subscribed to another site, topspeedgolf, I will definitely keep golfsmartacademy on the radar for the future though..  But anyway, this doesn't really answer the question being asked.  We can find teaching pros on both side of this question, thanks for letting me know that GolfsmartAcademy takes a strong position in rolling the wrists prior to impact, will keep that in mind..  

 

I'm trying to dig a little deeper, I'm not even sure which side I'm on either BTW, if I ask you questions back its not because i neceessarily disagree, I'm just trying to dig deeper.  I do not think there is universal consensus, but if you think so, then please convince me with more reasons why besides "everyone else is doing it so it must be right"

 

just one example of opposing view, would be the infamous Pete Cowen video with Danny Maude...spin it down, etc.. where he basically takes a directly opposing view of this topic.

 

 

Simple answer is this is the way the forearms move when the arms are extending away from the body during the release.

Edited July 14, 2024 by glk

[glk]

 

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Dewdman42 said:

How does someone time the rotation of the wrists exactly so that the club face will end up square at impact?

 

That's golf. They learn what to do, when to do it, how much to do it, etc.

[golferdude54]

Can't believe OP wrote an entire essay on a single move, you're overthinking it way too much.

[Archimedes65]

44 minutes ago, golferdude54 said:

Can't believe OP wrote an entire essay on a single move, you're overthinking it way too much.

 

But now he’s got charts, graphs, videos, and new subscription offers to consider, so he should be on the path to improvement in no time…

 

OP, have you tried different things on the range to see what produces the best result in terms of ball flight?  And, if so, are you able to repeat it?

 

[P.S.:  Dear Mods, I am trying to contribute positively to this subforum, through humor.  Please don’t suspend me again for a small joke…]  

[Carlito]

6 hours ago, glk said:

Both trail and lead wrists are supinated prior to impact and trail wrist begins to pronate right before impact.

This motion is stabilizing the club face in the impact zone. Period! 😉

[notsohard]

12 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

So I see a lot of conflicting opinion and advice, and have heard completely opposing points of view from instructors during my lessons over the years on this point and I would really like to hear arguments, statements and data about this point of what the forearms should be doing rotationally P6-P8 (supination or pronation as it were).  I am constantly second guessing myself at this point about what I should be allowing to happen.

 

My current thinking is as follows and I have no idea if I am right or wrong on some of these points, I keep second guessing myself:

 

1. I use a fairly neutral grip.  
    
2. I strive to have flat left wrist at the top
    
3. I am not yet trying any motorcycle grip move at transition to bow the left wrist or turn the right hand clockwise, though I have played around with it, getting mixed results 
    
4. At impact I am trying to have my left hand in a neutral position relative to my body at moment of impact, basically what I mean is if i let my left arm just hang down, the pronation/supination of that forearm will hang in a neutral position, so if I do that with my torso open a bit as I hope to have in the swing at impact with some shaft lean, that kind of gives me the position I am expecting that hand to be in at impact if I swing without thinking about it or trying to rotate the forearm...in other words, without trying to do some kind of thoughtful bowing of the left wrist, either at transition or during the downswing.
    
5. I am under the notion, right or wrong, that I want my Left hand to un-hinge prior to impact, caused by centrifugal forces and parametric acceleration of the clubhead.  I want the RH to remain extended through impact.  Its not clear to me whether the right forearm should be rotating P6-P8, but I think I am currently trying not to let it.
    
6. I am under the notion, right or wrong, that my pivot will bring the club face square and I should NOT try to use my hands in some way to roll the club face closed through forearm rotation or early releasing of RH extension.
    
7. I am under the notion, right or wrong, that after impact with the ball, my forearms should suddenly be allowed to rotate quite a lot, combined with the right wrist releasing its extension and perhaps even moving into flexion by virtue of momentum taking the club that way.

 

So the above basically means in my own mind I am NOT trying to roll the club face closed with my hands at all P6-P8, I am specifically trying to avoid that kind of manipulation and instead focus on my pivot happening fully to close the face down and avoiding other traps such as shoving the handle forward (opening the face), etc.  Basically I'm trying to preserve the very hand position that I establish at transition and mostly maintain that through impact except for the LH un-hinging, but specifically not allowing rotation of my forearms until after impact.

 

The problem I have, is that this results in very poor post-impact follow through for me, which in some ways who cares, its after impact, but it makes me wonder if I should in fact allow more rollover of the hands to happen, in order to get my left elbow down for the follow through.  Also, I tend to get 25% of my shots with pretty severe closed face (relative to swing path) according to trackman, and shots going left even when my swing path is fairly neutral or even in to out.   This is even when I am trying not to rollover my hands through impact, but maybe I am thinking about it wrong to begin with.  

 

I am currently subscribed to Clay Ballard's topspeedgolf and he has one video where he visits this point and suggests both alternatives as valid stating that the mindset of rolling the hands "through" impact...meaning allowing the release of the hands to begin a bit more prior to impact which he states causes the toe of the club to swing radially a bit more through impact, increasing effective clubhead speed on the ball, and also he claims that this may be easier on the body than entirely relying on the body pivot to close down the face.   However, in the past whenever I have gotten into the weeds trying to roll my hands over through impact, I resulted in very inconsistent timing that way and so in recent years I have been specifically trying to avoid that.  However, I think this also has made my actual final release and follow through after impact be sub-par according to what we are supposed to look like...as my efforts to avoid rollover block the rollover from happening post impact also...maybe happens much later, but I still get various bio-mechanical blockages happening in my follow through, that don't look or feel textbook, and always make me wonder if I'm giving up some clubhead speed by not allowing that forearm rotation and rollover to happen.  Not to mention traditionally i have been pretty good at squaring my club face with the irons in particularly starting very straight on line most of the time, but this year that has gone out the window as I have gotten more into trying to make sure my pivot doesn't stall P6-P8, now suddenly I am quite inconsistent with my face angle at impact...and so....  should I be using my hands more as the final face aiming feel?  I know feel isn't real....but...

 

Alright...  give it to me...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your questions are like a hornets nest... 🙂

It's all about match ups. You say you have a neutral grip...what's neutral to you may be weak, therefore you will need more supination than if you had a strong grip...supinating with a strong grip with shaft lean at impact will shut the face.

We could go on, but my advice is to find a good coach to get it right for you.

Most important, get you release, grip and ball position in harmony and you'll be good. 

[Dewdman42]

9 hours ago, Carlito said:

This motion is stabilizing the club face in the impact zone. Period! 😉

What do you mean by this exactly?  In what way is the club face stabilized?  I presume you mean by the action of the wrists supinating away from each other prior to P6?

Edited July 14, 2024 by Dewdman42

[Carlito]

7 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

What do you mean by this exactly?

Have you seen Tyler’s video explaining forearm rotation (2:00)?

Tyler: „Which gives you good solid  impact alignment.“

 

 

 

[Dewdman42]

7 minutes ago, Carlito said:

Have you seen Tyler’s video explaining forearm rotation (2:00)?

Tyler: „Which gives you good solid  impact alignment.“

 

not entirely sure which of the three videos posted so far is the one you mean.  the last one at 2:15 he talks about both hands reaching a state of palms to the sky, which would be supinating rotation of the lead arm and the trail arm is probably already close to fully supinated from the top of the backswing to there, or close to it anyway, but anyway I will watch that entire video shortly.  

 

But the question is why?  It sort of seems to me that the reason to hold the trail hand back preventing it from pronating while the lead had supinates...would be in order to do as you say...to stabilize the face so that it will not over rotate too far before impact.

 

but then is it really even possible to supinate both hands at the same time while maintaining a secure interlocked or overlapped grip?   This starts to seem a a bit conceptual to me and may not match actual reality if I am understanding correctly what is being said.  A concept to attempt to constrain or govern the amount of supination happening in the lead wrist.  Yes/No?

 

 

 

 

[Carlito]

8 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

but then is it really even possible to supinate both hands at the same time

It is all in the  short videos from Tyler. Just carefully look...... no rocket science. 

Take a look where the trail elbow is pointing during the downswing in the "stable" vs. the "unstable" version. 

 

[Ri_Redneck]

What a lot of folks don't seem to realize is that the pros are not TRYING to do all those movements when they swing. Their swing just DOES all those movements. This is how people fall into the "the golf swing is complicated" trap. I'm not going to get involved in this discussion any more than this.

 

BT

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Ri_Redneck said:

What a lot of folks don't seem to realize is that the pros are not TRYING to do all those movements when they swing. Their swing just DOES all those movements. This is how people fall into the "the golf swing is complicated" trap. I'm not going to get involved in this discussion any more than this.

 

They aren't thinking of ALL of the movements, but they're often thinking of one or two of them. Whatever they're working on at the moment.

 

Because sometimes, what happens automatically isn't what they want to actually do. Just like a 12 handicapper.

 

 

[Dewdman42]

I think it’s fair to say that some movements occur as automatic outcomes based on certain other movements happening a certain way to cause it.  It’s also fair to say some movements need to be executed directly through muscular bio mechanical direct action.  
 

i have seen it said that this particular thing, the shaft rotating around its axis causing the face to close down  from that, can happen automatically if and only if the club head is approaching the ball with a positive in to out path that is more in to out then the actual hand path.  In such case allegedly the momentum of the toe of the club will automagically rotate closed without the player needing to roll the hands through supinating force, though I would contend they may need to supinate the lead arm in order to match what the club head is allegedly trying to do on its own, and assuming that it is.

 

in my case I can say I am not trying to forcibly supinate or twist the grip and I am also not trying to block it per say, but on video I can see it’s not happening automatically.  So either it does need to be done directly or other things need to be done that will cause it to happen automagically.  If at all.

 

i have other things I am also working on and of course they are all related.  After watching cowen’s Schpeel and some others advocating rather strongly against any rollover moves to close the face, I remain on the fence a little bit because I hear other people I respect saying supination is good, how the left wrist, combine this with shaft lean to really compress the ball, etc.  it does seem like probably the better approach but also perhaps the method that requires significantly better skill and timing to execute properly.  

This seems to be a topic that remains unsettled with strong advocates on both sides and that is totally ok!  I would definitely like to hear all the arguments on both sides of it, especially the “why” since for me it’s going to take a concerted effort to add lead arm supination pre impact to the equation, and probably with adverse effects in the short run so I am not really sure I want to, aside from the release itself post impact obviously having supination and external rotation in the shoulder joint to avoid chicken wing.  But I am not entirely convinced that it’s mandatory pre impact for a quality strike.  Despite the fact we measure many pros doing it.  I am not a pro by the way.

 

 

[Nard_S]

On 7/13/2024 at 8:35 PM, Dewdman42 said:

just one example of opposing view, would be the infamous Pete Cowen video with Danny Maude...spin it down, etc.. where he basically takes a directly opposing view of this topic.

 

I've had success with Pete Cowen thinking. Feel like there's a need for an earlier mirrored forearm rotation, wrists that are more ulner in disposition and hands are more knuckles down. So there's a pre-load & earlier squaring but the release action from P6 to impact "the spin down" works nicely. It's been a good fit for me.

[coops]

Here's a link to a part of the gotham golf blog with Slicefixer - exactly about old school rolled vs modern release

 

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2f85gkhl256orf4m93enm/SliceFixer_Old_vs_Modern_Release.mp4?rlkey=bnk8aa17ajqi6ic315c4py34v&dl=0

 

 

or Malaska here:-

 

 

[MPStrat]

Step one is making absolutely sure that the grip is functional for the individual. If the grip is similar to Jordan Spieth or Jon Rahm, the release is going to have some differences compared to David Duval or Paul Azinger. Many amateurs especially beginners and high and mid caps just don’t really know how their hands arms and wrists are supposed to work in the swing particularly in the release. 
 

What many amateurs do naturally often doesn’t resemble what the best do. Whichever piece(s) are missing have to be trained. Training these pieces and then learning how to integrate them into an athletic motion are two slightly different pieces of the puzzle.

[vernon]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

Step one is making absolutely sure that the grip is functional for the individual. If the grip is similar to Jordan Spieth or Jon Rahm, the release is going to have some differences compared to David Duval or Paul Azinger. Many amateurs especially beginners and high and mid caps just don’t really know how their hands arms and wrists are supposed to work in the swing particularly in the release. 
 

What many amateurs do naturally often doesn’t resemble what the best do. Whichever piece(s) are missing have to be trained. Training these pieces and then learning how to integrate them into an athletic motion are two slightly different pieces of the puzzle.

That might be the most succinct summary ever.

[bm11]

OP- I feel like I may be in a similar place to you: learning the swing and trying to decipher from bits of online training. Where I have been thrown off and confused in the past is that a lot of the modern teaching of the so called "modern release", if taken literally, takes you down the wrong path. What I mean by that is the description of the "feel" of the modern release is that basically your hands and arms are doing nothing through impact. I had attempted to take that literally, and the result was not good. It took a fair amount of watching my swing, face on in slow motion, and comparing it to just about any PGA tour swing to see that I was on the wrong path. Looking at any tour pro at p5 and again at p8 you'll see that a LOT of rotation has occurred in both arms. Otherwise, the clubhead would never exit left before the elbow in the DTL view. In other words, about the only way to come through the ball without forearm rotation is to hang on or handle drag through, and chicken wing in the follow through.

 

It's been a process and it is still a work in progress to add more rotation in the forearms and achieve an actual release. The best way (for me) to get a feel for it is to hit one arm swings with my left arm straight. If I don't rotate the arm, the only way to come through the ball and to a finish position is to bunch the arm up into a chicken wing position.

 

Again- not a qualified teacher, and certainly not good enough to think I should be giving advice on an online forum. Just a guy working his way to a better swing sharing his findings and fighting a solution to a swing fault developed by taking things too literally.

[Dewdman42]

1 hour ago, MPStrat said:

Many amateurs especially beginners and high and mid caps just don’t really know how their hands arms and wrists are supposed to work in the swing particularly in the release. 

 

Well therin lies the question.  How are they "supposed" to work?  And why?  It seems there is not one and only one correct way, but just hearing from different people it seems there are two points of view about this.  

 

what is the reason for actually complicating the wrist action, what exactly is gained by that?  Malaska's presentation above is very compelling.  As has been from cowen and it's not the only two places I've heard this point of view.

 

I can see one might benefit from the more complicated rotational arm approach, which is mainly about achieving max shaft lean with the face closed down at impact, presuming you bow the LH while supinating, and back of hand facing the target at impact.  That could be an advantage, the shaft lean that is.  According to Clay Ballard, he also made the claim on one of this videos behind the paywall, that theoretically he felt the classic hand rolling also might be easier on the body compared to trying to really turn the hip through to square the face.  He is definitely preferring that approach, but some of his own coaches are the other way, one video two of them discussed both approaches, considering them both valid.  Clay referred to the new way as the "anti-roll" technique, but also stated that he preferred to develop the roll, akin to a tennis top spin backhand shot. 

 

But in any case I definitely think the roll technique is more complicated and as you put it, must be done correctly, must be learned correctly and executed correctly in order to get any kind of consistent face angle delivery; and I feel requires a high level of developed feel for the timing of motions in multiple dimensions.  With the upside being that perhaps you gain some shaft lean and compression by doing it that way.  I personally don't think it delivers more of a draw as is often cited.  You can get the face square both ways.  the claim seems to be more that this approach can contribute to shaft lean and compression, as well as potentially some CHS allegedly, due to the toe of the club swinging around and adding to the speed, but I find that claim dubious personally, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that is adding a radial component to squaring the face which will in fact make it more difficult to consistently square the face.

 

I would like to hear if people think there are other advantages that would make it worth it to pursue this more complicated and difficult wrist manipulation through P6-P7.   I'm definitely at a juncture where I need to consider whether to work on this a lot more and try to master it, or go the Malaska/Cowen route and focus on other things.  The one thing I find compelling is the ability to perhaps gain more shaft lean and compression.  But at 59 years, i'm also wondering if the juice will be worth the squeeze.