forearm rotation through impact and release?

[Simpsonia]

On 7/14/2024 at 5:25 PM, Dewdman42 said:

 

but then is it really even possible to supinate both hands at the same time while maintaining a secure interlocked or overlapped grip?   This starts to seem a a bit conceptual to me and may not match actual reality if I am understanding correctly what is being said.  A concept to attempt to constrain or govern the amount of supination happening in the lead wrist.  Yes/No?

 

 

 

Tyler actually covers this in the original video GLK posted (it's like 45 minutes of pure gold). The answer is that the trail arm/hand supinates as a counter movement to maintain position as the trail shoulder rotates from external rotation to internal rotation. 

[KMeloney]

On 7/13/2024 at 8:38 PM, glk said:

Simple answer is this is the way the forearms move when the arms are extending away from the body during the release.

 

I'm convinced that this is the bottom line on this subject. I just don't understand why it is that no one seems to ever discuss the part when he says "...assuming you're coming from a good position..." where the arms/clubface have to FIRST ROTATE [ONE DIRECTION] ON THE BACKSWING in order to then rotate as he shows on the downswing. It's taboo or something. No one seems to want to say "Yeah, you have to let the club face rotate open on the backswing in order to let them/it rotate through impact." But isn't that the case?! Trust me, I'm perfectly capable of not letting the face rotate open on the backswing and then somehow closing it more on the downswing and pull-hooking the heck out of it -- and that's largely the result of all of the talk about "keeping the face looking at the ball on the way back" influencing my backswing.

[MPStrat]

2 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

 

Well therin lies the question.  How are they "supposed" to work?  And why?  It seems there is not one and only one correct way, but just hearing from different people it seems there are two points of view about this.  

 

what is the reason for actually complicating the wrist action, what exactly is gained by that?  Malaska's presentation above is very compelling.  As has been from cowen and it's not the only two places I've heard this point of view.

 

I can see one might benefit from the more complicated rotational arm approach, which is mainly about achieving max shaft lean with the face closed down at impact, presuming you bow the LH while supinating, and back of hand facing the target at impact.  That could be an advantage, the shaft lean that is.  According to Clay Ballard, he also made the claim on one of this videos behind the paywall, that theoretically he felt the classic hand rolling also might be easier on the body compared to trying to really turn the hip through to square the face.  He is definitely preferring that approach, but some of his own coaches are the other way, one video two of them discussed both approaches, considering them both valid.  Clay referred to the new way as the "anti-roll" technique, but also stated that he preferred to develop the roll, akin to a tennis top spin backhand shot. 

 

But in any case I definitely think the roll technique is more complicated and as you put it, must be done correctly, must be learned correctly and executed correctly in order to get any kind of consistent face angle delivery; and I feel requires a high level of developed feel for the timing of motions in multiple dimensions.  With the upside being that perhaps you gain some shaft lean and compression by doing it that way.  I personally don't think it delivers more of a draw as is often cited.  You can get the face square both ways.  the claim seems to be more that this approach can contribute to shaft lean and compression, as well as potentially some CHS allegedly, due to the toe of the club swinging around and adding to the speed, but I find that claim dubious personally, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that is adding a radial component to squaring the face which will in fact make it more difficult to consistently square the face.

 

I would like to hear if people think there are other advantages that would make it worth it to pursue this more complicated and difficult wrist manipulation through P6-P7.   I'm definitely at a juncture where I need to consider whether to work on this a lot more and try to master it, or go the Malaska/Cowen route and focus on other things.  The one thing I find compelling is the ability to perhaps gain more shaft lean and compression.  But at 59 years, i'm also wondering if the juice will be worth the squeeze.

 

 

 

 

The ”manipulation” you are describing through the strike is also called educating your hands, arms and wrists to be more like pros. Pro golfers tend to have a lot more “roll” than mid and high cap amateurs. That is a fact. 
 

It’s not actually more complicated and difficult; there is a reason the best do things this way. Malaska is selling a feel as a swing method. The “no-roll-scoop” release is just not what the best players in the world do, but some might like to feel like they do it. 
 

Again it really goes back to what the individual golfer needs moreso than declaring which feels and/or movements are objectively superior and inferior in theory. There is another conversation about what actually happens in a swing and some links have been posted above covering that topic. 

[Carlito]

1 hour ago, KMeloney said:

No one seems to want to say "Yeah, you have to let the club face rotate open on the backswing in order to let them/it rotate through impact." But isn't that the case?!

The impact zone has a so called „flat spot“. Very less rotation of the club face. 
The closing of the club face due to lead arm supination needs a counter action from the trail side.

Cowen speaks from opposing forces.

[KMeloney]

32 minutes ago, Carlito said:

The impact zone has a so called „flat spot“. Very less rotation of the club face. 
The closing of the club face due to lead arm supination needs a counter action from the trail side.

Cowen speaks from opposing forces.

What’s the “trail side”? The backswing, or something different? 
 

Forget the impact zone. I want to know what happens prior to it. Either there’s a “flat spot” because the face never rotated open in the back swing, or it is simply closing at a slow rate through there after it opened on the backswing… right?

[Carlito]

 

7 hours ago, KMeloney said:

I want to know what happens prior to it. Either there’s a “flat spot” because the face never rotated open in the back swing, or it is simply closing at a slow rate through there after it opened on the backswing… right?

Yes, that's pretty close. Tyler is always speaking about good impact alingnments. You prepare for it during the bs and in the transition. At P6 a flexed  trail arm in external rotation. Trail wrist in extension. 

Then the pivot (mainly upper body... chest) is a carrier to bring this stable alingnments through the impact zone. 

I am not a fan of opening and closing the clubface with forearm rotation.

I think, the forearm rotation is a byproduct of achieving good and stable impact alingments. 

Edited July 17, 2024 by Carlito

[Dewdman42]

17 hours ago, Carlito said:

I am not a fan of opening and closing the clubface with forearm rotation.

 

Nor am I, and personally I think arguments made related to squaring up the face this way I feel are erroneous..  there may be other reasons for rotating the forearms, I will touch that in a minute, but for the purpose of squaring the face, I feel that is not the right way.. when I take my backswing, my lead arm does not pronate open at all.. At the top it's essentially in the same position rotationally that it was at address (relative to my chest), but my torso/shoulder turn has opened the club face relative to the target line..  Pivoting the torso and shoulders back to address position or even a little more open then that at impact will absolutely square the club face without any hand or forearm manipulation of any kind needed, based on that objective alone...squaring the club face.

 

 

17 hours ago, Carlito said:

I think, the forearm rotation is a byproduct of achieving good and stable impact alingments. 

 

I don't understand this bit and would like to understand what you are meaning.  stable impact alignments come without any rotation happening in your forearms.  Please describe exactly how you think the forearms are going to end up rotating as a byproduct of stable impact alignments...this statement is hard for me to decode.

 

I think this topic is a difficult one to discuss because some people have spent years or decades mastering it and feel it's the elite way to swing the club.  I'm not saying that it is or isn't.  I haven't been convinced yet with any compelling reasons for why that should be the elite way to swing, other than people pointing to many or most pros doing it, so therefore it must be the best way.  But nobody has really provided yet in this thread any sound bio mechanical reasoning for it other then Ben Hogan wrote about it and it has become perhaps a cultural customary "this is just how its done" kind of mindset.  And of course if you spent years learning to do that and do it super well now, there is no reason to change, but I still claim its more difficult to execute and so far I haven't heard a single compelling reason for doing it, other then something I have commented several times and nobody else has mentioned or caught on to it yet...but related to developing more shaft lean by virtue of bowing the lead wrist, requiring supination to achieve that.

 

I think the reason Cowen, Malaska and others have suggested contrary points of view is that for a large number of recreational golfers out there, there may be a law of diminishing returns here.  And many ways to go astray with it also.  The vast majority of recreational golfers just need to hit the ball online, with optimal face control and perhaps a less complicated release mechanism.  its hard enough to get the release timing down, with at least a little shaft lean, much less without having to also supinate the lead arm in just the right way starting before impact.   

 

I also think there are a lot of people twisting their arms all over the place as a result that they came over the top or early extended and requires them to execute a very armsy swing for the completion of the downswing, which very well might require at that point some forearm rotation to square the face.

 

I also think it's obvious that AFTER impact, we basically don't want to look like a gaper with chicken wing, which means some supination in that lead arm is in order.  It seems to me like while people are trying to look like Ben Hogan (and others) with a beautiful finish form, no chicken wing, a big beautiful follow through, they instigate some supination with the lead arm...even if some of that supination begins prior to impact.  They have to kind of start it early because its too fast to time it all perfectly and they definitely don't want to block their follow through and end up with ugly chicken wing.

 

but I find that reason to be really purely cosmetic...completely unnecessary for the purpose of squaring the clubface at impact.  there might be an argument to be made that chicken wing blockage will cause people to slow down prior to impact instead of really accelerating through the ball.  I could see that as a valid reason to avoid the chicken wing, that is not purely cosmetic, and might be a reason to allow some early supination to happen prior to impact in order to make sure chicken wing blockage does not occur.  However, if they supinate prior to impact, then in my view other things have to be set up right, otherwise things can turn quickly into handsy/armsy rollover garbage, throwing the hands around and getting into all kinds of trouble.  

 

Well anyway these are just a few reasons i can think of, but I would like to hear more from others.  I do not, however, agree with the notion that you have to supinate the lead arm prior to impact in order to square the club face.  That simply is not true.  

 

 

Edited July 17, 2024 by Dewdman42

[GungHoGolf]

27 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

I do not, however, agree with the notion that you have to supinate the lead arm prior to impact in order to square the club face.  That simply is not true.

Given that every decent-or-better player pronates the lead arm in the backswing, they all better supinate the lead arm prior to impact.

Edited July 17, 2024 by GungHoGolf

[Dewdman42]

2 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

Given that every decent-or-better player pronates the lead arm in the backswing, so they all better supinate the lead arm prior to impact.

 

please describe how or why they are allegedly pronating their lead arm in the back swing.  either we are not communicating well or I just completely disagree with you.

 

Edited July 17, 2024 by Dewdman42

[GungHoGolf]

Just now, Dewdman42 said:

 

please describe how or why they are allegedly pronating their lead arm in the back swing

Show me a good golfer who doesn't pronate their lead arm in the backswing. If they didn't, the club would point roughly in the direction they're facing somewhere between halfway back and the top.

[Dewdman42]

Just now, GungHoGolf said:

Show me a good golfer who doesn't pronate their lead arm in the backswing. If they didn't, the club would point roughly in the direction they're facing somewhere between halfway back and the top.

 

Please explain what you mean by the underlined bits.  There is no need to pronate your lead arm in the backswing, unless perhaps you have a very weak grip.  The very notion doesn't make any sense whatsoever unless we are going on two completely different definitions of the word "pronation"

[GungHoGolf]

1 minute ago, Dewdman42 said:

 

Please explain what you mean by the underlined bits.  There is no need to pronate your lead arm in the backswing, unless perhaps you have a very weak grip.  The very notion doesn't make any sense whatsoever unless we are going on two completely different definitions of the word "pronation"

 

I don't want to take any more time on this, so I'll point you to the reference below. (And before you ask, pronation and supination are the two directions of forearm rotation.)

 

https://hackmotion.com/forearm-rotation-in-golf-swing/

[Dewdman42]

forearm rotation relative to your elbow.  Not relative to the target line.   Think it through some more.  and if you think you know some "good golfers" pronating in the backswing, please share the videos of such

[GungHoGolf]

1 minute ago, Dewdman42 said:

forearm rotation relative to your elbow.  Not relative to the target line.   Think it through some more.  and if you think you know some "good golfers" pronating in the backswing, please share the videos of such

omg dude, of course I'm talking about forearm rotation relative to the elbow. Go to YouTube and search "pga tour golf swing", and the first 100 search results will all show you golfers pronating their forearms in the backswing.

[Dewdman42]

omg, I watch a lot of YT videos also, FWIW and I don't see that.  it's not like I'm going to suddenly see what you think you see.  Guess you'll have to show me.  In my view If you pronate during backswing you will end up with the face hyper opened and taking it too far inside unless perhaps you have a very weak grip to begin with.   But please show me.  

 

 

Edited July 18, 2024 by Dewdman42

[GungHoGolf]

11 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

omg, I watch a lot of YT videos also, FWIW and I don't see that.  it's not like I'm going to suddenly see what you think you see.  Guess you'll have to show me.  In my view If you pronate during backswing you will end up with the face hyper opened and taking it too far inside unless perhaps you have a very weak grip to begin with.   But please show me.  

 

 

It's literally impossible to make a full, on-plane backswing without lead forearm pronation. If you don't see that, or can't feel it yourself when you make a backswing, or can't take the time to read the very thorough article and videos on the Hackmotion link I shared above, that's on you.

Edited July 18, 2024 by GungHoGolf

[GoGoErky]

3 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

It's literally impossible to make a full, on-plane backswing without lead forearm pronation. If you don't see that, or can't feel it yourself when you make a backswing, or can't take the time to read the very thorough article and videos on the Hackmotion link I shared above, that's on you.

Seriously. Doenst even have to spend they much time on the video. 2.5 mins in

and he shows the actual motion.

 

 

[GoGoErky]

15 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

omg, I watch a lot of YT videos also, FWIW and I don't see that.  it's not like I'm going to suddenly see what you think you see.  Guess you'll have to show me.  In my view If you pronate during backswing you will end up with the face hyper opened and taking it too far inside unless perhaps you have a very weak grip to begin with.   But please show me.  

 

 

Watch the video and you will see it. Its

not that hard.

 

You are also missing out on what the wrist do that help with face control.

[Dewdman42]

I'm not interested in debating.  and this is starting to sound confrontational.  I understand that the two of you believe that some people, pros and others are swinging and endorsing opening the face up in the backswing and closing it back down.  Ok.  WHY!!!!?!?!?!?  Why do you feel you need to do that?  I'm not wanting to debate with you.  I'm trying to understand this issue better.   Some people are for it, some people are against it.  I fundamentally do not agree with the assertion that its not possible to make a backswing on plane without rotating the face open with lead arm pronation, but I don't want to debate this...believe as you wish..I know its possible to backswing on plane without it.

 

However, you seem to feel it's beneficial to open the face up, thus requiring it to be supinated close prior to impact...so...what is the specific benefit?  This is adding rotational complexity and timing nuance...  There is a consistency cost for that.  So what is the benefit.  Cost/Benefit analysis please.

 

[GoGoErky]

5 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

I'm not interested in debating.  and this is starting to sound confrontational.  I understand that the two of you believe that some people, pros and others are swinging and endorsing opening the face up in the backswing and closing it back down.  Ok.  WHY!!!!?!?!?!?  Why do you feel you need to do that?  I'm not wanting to debate with you.  I'm trying to understand this issue better.   Some people are for it, some people are against it.  I fundamentally do not agree with the assertion that its not possible to make a backswing on plane without rotating the face open with lead arm pronation, but I don't want to debate this...believe as you wish..I know its possible to backswing on plane without it.

 

However, you seem to feel it's beneficial to open the face up, thus requiring it to be supinated close prior to impact...so...what is the specific benefit?  This is adding rotational complexity and timing nuance...  There is a consistency cost for that.  So what is the benefit.  Cost/Benefit analysis please.

 

Simple question. Have you watched the video posted form hackmotion?

 

 

[Dewdman42]

There are several videos and I was watching one of them, but to be frank it was waxing off into hypothetical la la land and I already started disagreeing with some of it...so I don't have 40 minutes to sit through the rest of it.  This will be a long term project to investigate and consider any ideas put forth.  if you have anything else to add please do.

[GungHoGolf]

8 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

I know its possible to backswing on plane without it.

Then take and share a video of yourself doing it - slow motion indoors is fine. Or find and share one... just one... video on the internet showing someone else doing it.

 

Spoiler alert: it's not possible.

[Dewdman42]

it certainly is possible.  We are just missing each other entirely on this topic it seems, I don't see much point in continuing to discuss it with you.  but if you have anything else to add, pelase do, my understanding from you at the moment is that you feel it's necessary to open the clubface through forearm wrist pronation in the backswing because otherwise you can't stay on plane and since you have to open it in the backswing, it must be supinated close prior to impact.  Do I have that right?

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2024 by Dewdman42

[Trippels]

14 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

There are several videos and I was watching one of them, but to be frank it was waxing off into hypothetical la la land and I already started disagreeing with some of it...so I don't have 40 minutes to sit through the rest of it.  This will be a long term project to investigate and consider any ideas put forth.  if you have anything else to add please do.

 4:40 shows what keeping it squared all the way back would look like

[GoGoErky]

20 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

There are several videos and I was watching one of them, but to be frank it was waxing off into hypothetical la la land and I already started disagreeing with some of it...so I don't have 40 minutes to sit through the rest of it.  This will be a long term project to investigate and consider any ideas put forth.  if you have anything else to add please do.

I’ll help you out and paste here for you. It’s less than 12 minutes and in the first 2.5 he shows how the forearms work in the backswing

 

https://hackmotion.com/forearm-rotation-in-golf-swing/

Edited July 18, 2024 by GoGoErky

[Dewdman42]

7 minutes ago, Trippels said:

 4:40 shows what keeping it squared all the way back would look like

 

with due respect, do you honestly believe I am endorsing that exaggeration from AMG?  you and they are conflating what the club does relative to the target line vs what it does relative to your body.  We also use extension and flexion, and ulnar deviation to influence the face angle and our hip and shoulders are also turning....so that representation from AMG is perhaps disingenuous.  I have seen that video before but its too long to watch again and recall exactly the point they were trying to make, but as it pertains to right now, does absolutely NOT in any way prove that you have to pronate your lead wrist on the backswing in order to swing on plane.  if that is the only reason you guys have, then the discussion is over I don't need to waste any more time thinking about it, its not for me.

 

I do think there is probably more to it though, I have suggested a few things earlier in the thread.

Edited July 18, 2024 by Dewdman42

[iacas]

@Dewdman42, I'll try to make this simple for you:

 

At address, the shaft is essentially aligned up your torso:

 

 

When you turn, without rolling, it still is:

 

 

If you just raise your arms straight up from there, the club would be pointing out over your head:

 

 

But it's not — it points to the left, because you've rotated your forearms slightly:

 

 

If you didn't rotate your forearms during the backswing, you'd look like this:

 

 

(Matt rotates his forearms just after this, late in the backswing and throughout the early downswing.)

 

1 hour ago, GungHoGolf said:

Given that every decent-or-better player pronates the lead arm in the backswing, they all better supinate the lead arm prior to impact.

 

👍🏼

 

56 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

I understand that the two of you believe that some people, pros and others are swinging and endorsing opening the face up in the backswing and closing it back down.

 

It's not a "belief." It's a measured reality.

 

Edit to add: I just noticed that my pictures are pretty much exactly what's shown by Rob in the poster frame of the video (though he's perhaps rotated slightly the other direction) linked to by @GungHoGolf:

 

 

Edited July 18, 2024 by iacas

[Dewdman42]

I just want to be clear.. so far some of you are saying that the primary reason to supinate lead arm through impact is because you believe the forearm fundamentally must be pronated during the backswing and therefore must be supinated prior to impact during the downswing in order to be square again.  Do I understand your pov correctly?.

 No other reason for rolling the hands through impact?

 

Edited July 18, 2024 by Dewdman42

[Valtiel]

On 7/15/2024 at 2:24 PM, iacas said:

 

They aren't thinking of ALL of the movements, but they're often thinking of one or two of them. Whatever they're working on at the moment.

 

Because sometimes, what happens automatically isn't what they want to actually do. Just like a 12 handicapper.

 

 

I love the juxtaposition in that video of poor Spieth just grinding on the range with his exaggerated drills and then the cut to the enviously simple swing of Max Homa piping one over the corner. 

[GoGoErky]

7 hours ago, Dewdman42 said:

I just want to be clear.. so far some of you are saying that the primary reason to supinate lead arm through impact is because you believe the forearm fundamentally must be pronated during the backswing and therefore must be supinated prior to impact during the downswing in order to be square again.  Do I understand your pov correctly?.

 No other reason for rolling the hands through impact?

 

You just had a post showing you what happens if you don’t rotate the forearms in the backswing. You have to undo that in the downswing.

 

This isn’t some thought or belief. It’s reality.

 

You have photos and videos explaining this but yet you can’t see it or understand why.

 

ill echo gung ho and ask for evidence of anyone that doesn’t do it in a good swing. You should be able to provide that because if all the YouTube videos you watched where you don’t see it