forearm rotation through impact and release?

[Simpsonia]

As many people have stated, there has to be pronation in the backswing. It has been measured, every tour pro (outside of maybe Matt Wolff) has significant pronation in the backswing. This is not a debate where you get to disagree, it has been measured. This isn't just looking at video and trying to figure out forearm rotation visually, this has been measured by 3D measurement devices (AMM, GEARS, Hackmotion, other academic research solutions like Dr. Kwon's custom devices, etc.)

 

Now, the corollary must be true, if there was pronation in the backswing, there must be some amount of supination in the downswing to square the face. This supination has also been measured. GLK kindly posted Tyler Ferrell's 2018 talk, which is based on research from actual 3D measurement of dozens of tour pros. Everyone supinates. 

 

Now, not everyone FEELS supination in the downswing, but it happens. In fact, many don't feel it at all, but get their supination from how their arms move. Tyler has a video on his pay site that discusses how supination, for many, comes purely as a side effect of trail arm extension through impact. Here's a separate video Tyler has on his youtube discussing the shallowing movement as it relates to supination. 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2024 by Simpsonia

[Dewdman42]

As I already said before I do not wish to fight or debate this point about whether it’s necessary to pronate the lead arm in the backswing.  I was just asking if I understand the pov correctly about why supination is required, according to some, in the downswing.

 

I will ask again, are there any other reasons people feel it’s necessary to supinate the lead arm prior to impact in the downswing?  is this the only reason?

 

I think it’s important also if people will clarify the differences between pronation and internal rotation of the shoulder socket in the backswing.  

[GoGoErky]

9 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

As I already said before I do not wish to fight or debate this point about whether it’s necessary to pronate the lead arm in the backswing.  I was just asking if I understand the pov correctly about why supination is required, according to some, in the downswing.

 

I will ask again, are there any other reasons people feel it’s necessary to supinate the lead arm prior to impact in the downswing?  is this the only reason?

 

I think it’s important also if people will clarify the differences between pronation and internal rotation of the shoulder socket in the backswing.  

If you don’t supinate in then downswing how do you hit the ball.

 

the pronation/suppination is the rotation of the forearm. Can be done without any movement of the shoulder.

 

Internal/external rotation of the shoulder is just that it’s the rotation of the shoulder. Internally is towards the body and externally is away from the body. The shoulders also protract and retract.

[KMeloney]

12 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

As I already said before I do not wish to fight or debate this point about whether it’s necessary to pronate the lead arm in the backswing.  I was just asking if I understand the pov correctly about why supination is required, according to some, in the downswing.

 

I will ask again, are there any other reasons people feel it’s necessary to supinate the lead arm prior to impact in the downswing?  is this the only reason?

 

I think it’s important also if people will clarify the differences between pronation and internal rotation of the shoulder socket in the backswing.  

 

You're doing a terrible job of suggesting that you don't want to argue. In a word, yes, everyone you've been responding to believes that what is shown in these videos is necessary to get the club on plane in the least contrived way -- and unless you want to slice it off the planet, you need to undo that backswing move on the downswing.

[Dewdman42]

On the contrary I asked a simple question  when I created this thread and i am sincerely interested in hearing all ideas and reasons.  I made the mistake of saying one opinion of my own which I am now being punched in the nose for repeatedly.  I did not start this thread in order to debate an opinion of my own.  No desire to continue that, but to hear your opinions is what I want.  If I ask challenging questions it is only to clarify; it does not mean I agree or disagree.

 

I have asked several times for people to confirm that my understanding of their opinion is correct, nothing more.  I also will ask again, are there any other reasons people feel the lead wrist must be in act of supination prior to impact?

 

and again I will ask for clarification about wrist rotation vs shoulder motion

 

also I would appreciate if people would quantify how many degrees of wrist rotation they feel is necessary on the backswing that must be reversed in the downswing with supinating wrist rotation.  Also how does wrist flexing/bowing contribute to the equation?  As well how does the fact we ideally pivot our hips and shoulders open past the target line prior to impact so how does that affect squaring the club face and in relationship to the fact the club face may have been opened with wrist rotation  in the backswing after being square at address.

 

Edited July 18, 2024 by Dewdman42

[Carlito]

34 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

also I would appreciate if people would quantify how many degrees of wrist rotation they feel is necessary on the backswing that must be reversed in the downswing with supinating wrist rotation.

It depends.....

Some feel zero, but a gentle rotation of the forearms (as measured) is always there. 

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, Dewdman42 said:

have asked several times for people to confirm that my understanding of their opinion is correct, nothing more.  I also will ask again, are there any other reasons people feel the lead wrist must be in act of supination prior to impact?

We sent given opinions as there is no need to because what your asking for is measured data thus it’s a fact probation and supination has happen in backswing and downswing. There are some simple photos shown of why and a short hackmotion video posted twice now that demonstrate this. It’s there visually to see and understand.

 

Another video was posted from AMG showing the number of degrees things are happening in 3 different swings.

 

1 hour ago, Dewdman42 said:

and again I will ask for clarification about wrist rotation vs shoulder motion

I explained that in my earlier reply. Did you not read it or are you simply ignore what is posted just to keep asking a question.

 

The amount of shoulder rotation protraction/retraction, forearm pronation/supination all vary by golfer. It’s about the matchup needed by that golfer. 

[Carlito]

Ok, setting the trail wrist in the bs (radial deviation) is a pronation.

Ulnar deviation of the trail wrist is some amount of supination. 

 

[Dewdman42]

5 minutes ago, Carlito said:

Ok, setting the trail wrist in the bs (radial deviation) is a pronation.

Ulnar deviation of the trail wrist is some amount of supination. 

 

I hear what you're saying and don't disagree.  However this opens another question which is that if something like supination or pronation happens in very small amounts, or not small amounts; as a byproduct of other intentional movements (radial deviation for example or ulnar deviation), then do we even need to think about the pronation or supination aspect that is related there?  we can certainly measure it...sure...but then if we start thinking about it and over-pronating or over-supinating...what are the consequences?

 

Edited July 18, 2024 by Dewdman42

[Carlito]

I think you got it.
If you set your wrists properly and unload them in a correct way you are on the right track. 
No need to think about forearm rotation.

 

[Nard_S]

I went from passive arms to not passive to quiet hands to hands with more ulnar, now I employ higher supination earlier where both forearms index to p6. By the way it's the same thing as the "motorcycle move" has the same effect. I just don't choose to approach it that way and yeah, I do have a bike license. So not surprised many don't think it's a thing or at all necessary.

[Jeff58]

27 minutes ago, Dewdman42 said:

then do we even need to think about the pronation or supination aspect that is related there?

Excuse my naive thinking…

 

If you take an iron and swing it at chest level, standing essentially straight up, any attempt to manipulate wrist and club position is quickly understood as pointless/unwanted/grossly limiting. “Professional “ players, and generally those who learned at an early age carry this natural sequencing through to the actual golf positioning.

 

Those who do not and/or cannot retain this natural sequencing then attempt to modify the club head location, and the unnatural aspect promotes obtaining instruction, watching videos, posting questions on golf forums, and other detrimental behaviors.

[KMeloney]

27 minutes ago, Carlito said:

No need to think about forearm rotation.

 

 

Some of us absolutely do, especially if you've followed the whole "keep the face looking at the ball" stuff.

[GoGoErky]

35 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

 

Some of us absolutely do, especially if you've followed the whole "keep the face looking at the ball" stuff.

Yep as Monte says those who aren’t doing something naturally have to think about it and do it. 

[ShowMe]

On 7/13/2024 at 6:48 PM, glk said:

 

 

The trail and lead wrist both start supinating just prior to p6 and the lead wrist continues thru p7 while the trail wrist begins to pronate just before p7.     

How is this possible if the wrists are connected via your grip?  If the wrists are connected, then if the left wrist is pronating, the right wrist is supinating.  And vice, versa.  Correct?

 

If both are supinating at the same time, then they are moving in the opposite direction of each other, by definition, and would come apart in your grip.

[glk]

20 minutes ago, ShowMe said:

How is this possible if the wrists are connected via your grip?  If the wrists are connected, then if the left wrist is pronating, the right wrist is supinating.  And vice, versa.  Correct?

 

If both are supinating at the same time, then they are moving in the opposite direction of each other, by definition, and would come apart in your grip.

If you aRe not a member you can only watch 45 sec of the video but believe you can read the transcript

plus tyler’s 3d graphs i posted on page  1 show this.

https://www.golfsmartacademy.com/golf-instruction/how-can-both-arms-supinate-member-question/

Edited July 18, 2024 by glk

[ShowMe]

56 minutes ago, glk said:

If you aRe not a member you can only watch 45 sec of the video but believe you can read the transcript

plus tyler’s 3d graphs i posted on page  1 show this.

https://www.golfsmartacademy.com/golf-instruction/how-can-both-arms-supinate-member-question/

So it's not the hands/wrists supinating in unison (which is impossible), it's a shoulder/forearm thing.  Got it.  Your original statement is incorrect.  You should watch the video again.

[iacas]

4 hours ago, KMeloney said:

Some of us absolutely do, especially if you've followed the whole "keep the face looking at the ball" stuff.

 

Definitely.

 

Had to teach what I call my "twist and roll" lesson earlier today. Little wrist twist early in the downswing with a forearm roll a fraction (of a fraction) of a second later.

[glk]

2 hours ago, ShowMe said:

So it's not the hands/wrists supinating in unison (which is impossible), it's a shoulder/forearm thing.  Got it.  Your original statement is incorrect.  You should watch the video again.

 

2 hours ago, ShowMe said:

So it's not the hands/wrists supinating in unison (which is impossible), it's a shoulder/forearm thing.  Got it.  Your original statement is incorrect.  You should watch the video again.

Nope you read again. And it has been measured.  Again see the graphs of Tyler's I posted on page 1 or don't.    Tyler didn't title it how can both arms supinate just to say they don't.  
 

Here is his closing sentence in the video and transcript

 

yes in the elite level swing both arms
are supinating during the downswing.
 

Edited July 19, 2024 by glk

[Carlito]

Ulnar deviation in both wrists leads to supination. Elbows come closer together.

In my opinion this opposing forces are stabilizing the club face.

 

Edited July 19, 2024 by Carlito

[Carlito]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

Little wrist twist early in the downswing with a forearm roll a fraction (of a fraction) of a second later.

I agree and I know what you mean.

But a forearm roll is twisting the wrist😉

[iacas]

10 hours ago, Carlito said:

I agree and I know what you mean.

But a forearm roll is twisting the wrist😉

 

I think we're on the same page, but more technically… both with the lead arm/wrist: palmar flexion early in the downswing and supination a moment later.

[TUCKITIN]

On 7/13/2024 at 6:48 PM, glk said:

 

 

The trail and lead wrist both start supinating just prior to p6 and the lead wrist continues thru p7 while the trail wrist begins to pronate just before p7.      Below are lead and trail wrist 3D graphs of Grant Waite and Steve Elkington which were used by Tyler Ferrell in a presentation he gave back in 2018 on arm movements of elite golfers - Waite and Elkington where used as two example of the general pattern of the three movements of the forearms and wrists - pattern is similar but the amount and timing can differ.     Of interest for sup/pro is the blue line - line going up is supination and going down is pronation - crossing the midline indicates where the forearm is supinated or pronated (above is supinated -below is pronated - so a forearm can be pronated but moving toward supination and vice versa.

 

As one example, Elk's adn Waite's lead forearms start supinated and moves toward pronating which happens prior to reaching the top then it pronates before beginning to supinate and it is supinated (or in Elk's case still slightly pronated) by impact .   Both trail and lead wrists are supinated prior to impact and trail wrist begins to pronate right before impact.

 

As you can see the wrists and forearms are constantly moving thru the swing.   No one any good is trying to hold anything or force anything.

 

You do need a subscription (can take a 7 day free trial) to Golf Smart Academy to see the video as Tyler has not posted it to his youtube but I've posted one of his youtube video on supination (looking at lead arm only) where he shows patterns pros and amateurs with some drills to improve.

 

 

 

Super interesting YouTube. Reminds me of malaskas look cool drills.

[Carlito]

15 hours ago, iacas said:

both with the lead arm/wrist:

Can you also say „reverse motorcycle“ or „knuckles under the grip?

Whats about the clock analogy?

If both thumbs pointing to 12 you bring them gently to 13.

My point is, you don’t have necessarily think about such things as forearm rotation.

[iacas]

4 hours ago, Carlito said:

My point is, you don’t have necessarily think about such things as forearm rotation.

 

Some people do.

[ShowMe]

On 7/18/2024 at 9:04 PM, glk said:

 

Nope you read again. And it has been measured.  Again see the graphs of Tyler's I posted on page 1 or don't.    Tyler didn't title it how can both arms supinate just to say they don't.  
 

Here is his closing sentence in the video and transcript

 

yes in the elite level swing both arms
are supinating during the downswing.
 

Not to belabor the point, but accuracy is important.

 

You said The trail and lead wrist both start supinating just prior to p6.

 

Nowhere does he say that both WRISTS supinate.  That's impossible, as they would be moving in opposite directions.  He's saying that both ARMS supinate.  Different.

 

Read below from the transcript:

 

"One would be, I'm not going to move the elbow and I'm going to move the hand down in

this direction and that would be considered supination.

The other one is I'm going to keep my hand still and I'm going to turn my elbow so it's

pointing more at the down-the-line camera there.

So if I go from there to there and the hand doesn't move, that is also supination.

 

[GungHoGolf]

43 minutes ago, ShowMe said:

Nowhere does he say that both WRISTS supinate.  That's impossible, as they would be moving in opposite directions.  He's saying that both ARMS supinate.  Different.

That is impossible, but not for the reason you state. The wrists cannot supinate, or pronate, because their rotation is anatomically fixed to the forearms. Supination and pronation happens from the elbow down, and the wrists just go along for the ride.

[glk]

1 hour ago, ShowMe said:

Not to belabor the point, but accuracy is important.

 

You said The trail and lead wrist both start supinating just prior to p6.

 

Nowhere does he say that both WRISTS supinate.  That's impossible, as they would be moving in opposite directions.  He's saying that both ARMS supinate.  Different.

 

Read below from the transcript:

 

"One would be, I'm not going to move the elbow and I'm going to move the hand down in

this direction and that would be considered supination.

The other one is I'm going to keep my hand still and I'm going to turn my elbow so it's

pointing more at the down-the-line camera there.

So if I go from there to there and the hand doesn't move, that is also supination.

 

please read the qoute I included.   and take a free 7 day trial and watch the video - or you could email Tyler himself, he is really good at responding.    and please both arms/forearms)  supinate - but you are saying one can supinate the humerus and that is what tyler is really supinating - the humerus while the forearms don't - you are really stretching here.    

and once again the 3d graphs - this has been measured and Waite is not an exception - blue line is forearms and going up is supination -  both start going up thru impact - this is from tyler video from 2018 on his presentation to the world golf fitness summit - this spawned a question from a member on how could both arms being supinating.   You can watch this video too.

Edited July 22, 2024 by glk

[ShowMe]

10 hours ago, glk said:

please read the qoute I included.   and take a free 7 day trial and watch the video - or you could email Tyler himself, he is really good at responding.    and please both arms/forearms)  supinate - but you are saying one can supinate the humerus and that is what tyler is really supinating - the humerus while the forearms don't - you are really stretching here.    

and once again the 3d graphs - this has been measured and Waite is not an exception - blue line is forearms and going up is supination -  both start going up thru impact - this is from tyler video from 2018 on his presentation to the world golf fitness summit - this spawned a question from a member on how could both arms being supinating.   You can watch this video too.

Good Lord, Dude.  Here's your quote - "The trail and lead wrist both start supinating just prior to p6."

 

Show me where he says that both wrists supinate.  Not arms or shoulders or forearms...wrists.

[ShowMe]

10 hours ago, GungHoGolf said:

That is impossible, but not for the reason you state. The wrists cannot supinate, or pronate, because their rotation is anatomically fixed to the forearms. Supination and pronation happens from the elbow down, and the wrists just go along for the ride.

While gripping a club it is possible to change the forearm angles without changing the wrist angles.  Grip a club and then move your elbows closer together.  Your forearm angles change but your wrist angles stay the same.  Ergo, you can supinate without changing the wrist angles.  Try it.