Moderation of Instruction and Academy Forum

[naval2006]

On 7/31/2024 at 4:45 PM, Hawkeye77 said:

 

 Not everything new is new, lol, some of it just described differently these days.

Most stuff in golf is pretty much come and go and it’s been like this for ages.  I believe only applied biomechanics is a real changer in golf swing theory. But I’m not an expert on the subject.  

[Forged4ever]

On 8/5/2024 at 1:28 PM, mshills said:

Or, just as common, I’m a double digit index and have been for the 25 years that I’ve played golf, but I have the swing all figured out and I will deliver an explanation explosion to anyone with ears to hear.
 

That is the kind of stuff that makes an instruction forum useless. Not that a great teacher MUST be an elite player. We know that’s not the case. But you should have some level of competence. Without that, no credibility.  

Superb post and thoughts MS👊

 

I agree 💯 that great Players do not necessarily make great Teachers or are even knowledgeable enough about the swing in the theoretical or application sense to discuss what constitutes a great swing or even what they actually do with their own swing.

 

Sam was the poster child & the epitome of "the feel ain't real."

 

Starting with his advice to grip a club as though one was "holding a baby bird(in pic, notice the vascularity in his arm on a driver swing, which pressure wise, was a 7-8/10 and would crush a lil birdie🐦)," to his self swing analysis along with his swing advice was unadulterated bull💩, lolol.  

 

The one area that I did agree with Sam 💯 though was regarding most of these Teaching Pros that had never competed or won at a high level, hence, the swings that they were teaching had NEVER stood up to the pressures of Tourney golf, or as Pete and Sam always chirped, "under the gun." Most of these swing theories, at least how they are applied by the Players who use them, have more body/club manipulations than Carters got pills, and even hitting thousands of balls to at least ingrain those manipulations, good luck putting them together, reducing the variables for errors for one round, much less 72 holes😂😂
 

Most swings being taught cannot withstand the pressures of big money games or Tourney golf, and that is THE only true measure of a swing's worthiness.

 

So now you're gonna tell me that some mid/high cap Am, who can't even tee it up from the BoBs(Back of the Box), much less score and compete from them for $500-$1000/hole in a Vegas game or in a USGA/USGA affiliated Tourney is gonna give swing advice?!?!?

 

Seriously?!?!?

 

GTFOH😂🤣😂

 

As always, just my .05 worth🪙

 

I hope that you're well @mshills and havin a great season👊

 

All the Best🍻

RP

 

 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2024 by Forged4ever

[GungHoGolf]

Where did the Torque thread by Dr Oach go from last night? Curious why it’s gone… it had potential.

[Hilts1969]

On 7/25/2024 at 2:28 PM, jonsnow said:

In other words, this:

 

I'm not taking advice from a guy who wrote Huckleberry Hound, in real life Tom Sawyer didn't even have a dog. The fool.

 

Anyhow back on topic i presume we can still annoy people by clever use of emoji's ? 

[dr_oach]

8 hours ago, GungHoGolf said:

Where did the Torque thread by Dr Oach go from last night? Curious why it’s gone… it had potential.

It was deleted, I asked why? Have not had a reply.

 I really am keen to discuss with whoever is keen to understand what I have to say. 

[GwrxMod]

15 hours ago, dr_oach said:

It was deleted, I asked why? Have not had a reply.

 I really am keen to discuss with whoever is keen to understand what I have to say. 

 

It wasn't deleted but was hidden by you on Monday at 4:24 PM. I'm assuming it was by accident and you want it unhidden?

 

[Valtiel]

17 minutes ago, GwrxMod said:

 

It wasn't deleted but was hidden by you on Monday at 4:24 PM. I'm assuming it was by accident and you want it unhidden?

 

[GwrxMod]

3 hours ago, Valtiel said:

 

Can you? Yes.

 

Should you? No.

 

[dr_oach]

7 hours ago, GwrxMod said:

 

It wasn't deleted but was hidden by you on Monday at 4:24 PM. I'm assuming it was by accident and you want it unhidden?

 

Yes please if that’s the case would you please unhide it? 
 

I am new to this forum so may have been the case, I genuinely don’t believe I did anything to hide it though. 

[GwrxMod]

6 minutes ago, dr_oach said:

Yes please if that’s the case would you please unhide it? 
 

I am new to this forum so may have been the case, I genuinely don’t believe I did anything to hide it though. 

 

Topic unhidden.

 

All actions on a topic are logged. Chances are you just fat-fingered it while the site was running slow.   

Edited August 15, 2024 by GwrxMod

[dr_oach]

3 minutes ago, GwrxMod said:

 

Topic unhidden.

 

All actions on a topic are logged. Chances are you just fat-fingered it while the site was running slow.   

Sorry you unhid a topic I did mean to hide. 
 

the topic we’re referring to was behind this link 

 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/2016699-how-to-learn-the-difference-between-turn-and-torque

 

and it was titled “how to the learn the difference between turn and torque”

[GwrxMod]

3 hours ago, dr_oach said:

Sorry you unhid a topic I did mean to hide. 
 

the topic we’re referring to was behind this link 

 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/2016699-how-to-learn-the-difference-between-turn-and-torque

 

and it was titled “how to the learn the difference between turn and torque”

 

 

Lock a topic, do not hide it. 

 

The other topic was automatically removed by the system due to referencing a site that is not allowed here. I've removed the site reference and reopened it. 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2024 by GwrxMod

[Louis_Posture]

14 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Being told you are wrong doesn’t constitute a personal attack. It’s stating a fact and to help those who come to the thread to know and understand what is correct and what isn’t.

 

It saves a thread from getting derailed by bad ideas and concepts, which requires those who are qualified at their craft to point out the issues with a post. 

You've circled back to what golferdude54 wrote on 7/23 ; and here is a quote from his post "So anyone who's not Monte, iacas, or Valtiel is just gonna have a target on their back? Doesn't seem very fair."

 

Subsequently, the forum moderator (s) clarified that this forum is open to a range of viewpoints and perspectives. This is how it should be and is actually the definition of the word "forum".

Please understand that it does not matter if a participant believes he is especially qualified or he believes that his posts are factual or he believes his posts are scientific etc... What matters is that participants honor the forum Rules, including no personal attacks.

[GoGoErky]

46 minutes ago, Louis_Posture said:

You've circled back to what golferdude54 wrote on 7/23 ; and here is a quote from his post "So anyone who's not Monte, iacas, or Valtiel is just gonna have a target on their back? Doesn't seem very fair."

 

Subsequently, the forum moderator (s) clarified that this forum is open to a range of viewpoints and perspectives. This is how it should be and is actually the definition of the word "forum".

Please understand that it does not matter if a participant believes he is especially qualified or he believes that his posts are factual or he believes his posts are scientific etc... What matters is that participants honor the forum Rules, including no personal attacks.

I dont agree with golferdudes take on that note do i think mods or most in this forum think that is the case.

 

We have a lot of good posters in this section that offer good advice and takes on different topics so it’s not limited to those posters as you and goflerdude allude to nor is anyone looking to attack or report anyone for expressing their opinion.

 

The problem is that we have some posters who continue to post a lot of bad information and repeat that same bad information over and over and derail threads and then get mad when they are shown why they are wrong and why. This doesn’t help anyone who is currently reading the thread or will come into at some point in the future. That constant misinformation should be prevented from being posted repeatedly and taking away from education that can be had in this section.

 

then there are others who post their opinion which nobody is trying to stop, but their opinion may be based on bad information or outdated concepts. Saying that information or the post is wrong isn’t an attack on the person making the post, it’s pointing out the incorrect information of the post. Nearly everyone who replies saying a post is wrong explains why it’s wrong so that everyone has a chance to learn

 

[GwrxMod]

Locked for review due to numerous reports.

 

*** Cleaned up  Stop the bickering and keep it on topic. ***

Edited October 2, 2024 by GwrxMod

[Archimedes65]

Real question.  Who’s the arbiter of right or wrong on a topic in the Instruction forum and why does the forum need one of those?  Is golf really black and white, fact or fiction, right or wrong, or are there shades of grey?  And isn’t everything that is said on all these forums just opinions?

 

Seriously, unless someone is personally attacking someone, why does anyone have more right to post in any of the subforum as anyone else, whether they’re a PGA Professional or a 45 handicap who plays Fisher-Price toddler clubs? 

[Valtiel]

On 12/30/2024 at 3:07 PM, Archimedes65 said:

Real question.  Who’s the arbiter of right or wrong on a topic in the Instruction forum and why does the forum need one of those?  Is golf really black and white, fact or fiction, right or wrong, or are there shades of grey?  And isn’t everything that is said on all these forums just opinions?

 

Seriously, unless someone is personally attacking someone, why does anyone have more right to post in any of the subforum as anyone else, whether they’re a PGA Professional or a 45 handicap who plays Fisher-Price toddler clubs? 

There is a mixture of blacks, whites, and greys. The 45hdcp has the same right to argue about the blacks and whites as the professional has to correct them if they're wrong. Said corrections aren't some violation of a "right to post". And within the "greys" the conversation has to stay grey in terms of the points being made so it maintains being an exchange of ideas and not a pissing contest about who is right and wrong. 

I'm not sure if this what you're getting at so apologies if it isn't, but most of the time when the "why does anyone have more right to post in any of the subforum as anyone else" type of question is asked, it's a bit disingenuous for a couple reasons. Obviously there are no literal restrictions on who can post, there is no post approval by default so anyone can do it. No one has more right to do so than anyone else. What *actually* happens is there is pushback if said post contains potentially misleading, harmful, or outright false information. The right for others to post in opposition to that is the same as the initial right to post it. Not everyone is qualified to weigh in on every topic, therefore the unfettered right to do so needs the similar unfettered right to be challenged as a check/balance.

The 45hdp is free to share whatever they want, but opposition to what they share isn't violating any "right", it's simply necessary quality control. 

Edited January 3 by Valtiel

[Archimedes65]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

Not everyone is qualified to weigh in on every topic, therefore the unfettered right to do so needs the similar unfettered right to be challenged as a check/balance.
 

 

And therein lies my question?  Who decides who is qualified to weigh in on a topic on a public forum? And why do certain members run to the mods if someone repeatedly disagrees with them on a topic?

 

My comment wasn’t questioning the right for people to challenge opinions with their own.  That’s what an open forum is for.  My comment was directed at the practice of certain people acting as if they’re the arbiters of truth and have a right to shut down comments of people they don’t agree with. 

Edited January 3 by Archimedes65

[Valtiel]

14 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

My comment was directed at the practice of certain people acting as if they’re the arbiters of truth and have a right to shut down comments of people they don’t agree with. 

If they can back up their assertions with either data or experience then it's far more "shut down people that are wrong" than it is a matter of opinion. That's where my first point comes in...everyone has the right to share, no one has the right to be assumed correct by default. In the various debates that i've seen in the last several years, heated and not, the unqualified amateurs asserting their opinions/observations as fact and being unreceptive to pushback have always been on the wrong side. The origins of this very thread coming from some of those debates with said unqualified amateurs basically losing in the marketplace of ideas and creating a stink about it...and perhaps some overzealousness on the other side as well, let's be fair hah. The fact that they're more or less gone now IMO is a good indication that in said idea marketplace, they lost, and as an open forum that is "working as intended™." 

Edited January 3 by Valtiel

[Archimedes65]

1 minute ago, Valtiel said:

In the various debates that i've seen in the last several years, heated and not, the unqualified amateurs asserting their opinions/observations as fact and being unreceptive to pushback have always been on the wrong side. 

 

Do you not see the irony in what you’re typing?

 

[Valtiel]

12 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

Do you not see the irony in what you’re typing?

 

In observing that every time there is a dust-up in can always be traced back to that? Nothing ironic about an objective observation. What am I missing?

[Archimedes65]

2 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

In observing that every time there is a dust-up in can always be traced back to that? Nothing ironic about an objective observation. What am I missing?

 

You’re missing that you’re assuming that you, or anyone else, is qualified to determine who is ‘on the wrong side’…

[Valtiel]

1 minute ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

You’re missing that you’re assuming that you, or anyone else, is qualified to determine who is ‘on the wrong side’…

So no one is qualified to determine anything? Or there are better/more qualified people out there that would be better arbiters of that? 

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at ultimately, but with the number of things that can be objectively quantified and measured these days there are absolutely plenty of people here that are as equally objectively qualified to say certain people are or have been on the wrong side. It's the same in any other field with professionals vs. amateurs, so why would it be any different here?

[mshills]

There are things that are factual about the golf swing, so yes, there is a right and wrong side on certain principles.

 

I am fine with this corner of the forum having either an official, or a crowdsourced way to determine credibility.  The place is not useful at all when an 18 index, loquacious and gifted in rhetoric, shouts down a teaching professional who spends free time on here helping members out FOR NO CHARGE.  Nor is it useful when the same chop uses up four pages debating the same teaching pro.

 

My point is not that someone who knows how to teach the golf swing should be able to go out and shoot 66.  But you need some credibility too.

 

My solution:

 

If you’re asking for advice, you should post up your swing.  You’ll get much better advice if you do this!

 

If you are dispensing advice, you must post up your swing.

[Archimedes65]

5 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

So no one is qualified to determine anything? Or there are better/more qualified people out there that would be better arbiters of that? 

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at ultimately, but with the number of things that can be objectively quantified and measured these days there are absolutely plenty of people here that are as equally objectively qualified to say certain people are or have been on the wrong side. It's the same in any other field with professionals vs. amateurs, so why would it be any different here?

 

And therein lies the difference of opinion.  I don’t believe there is anything black and white or right or wrong about the golf swing.  There are many different ways to skin that cat, and anyone who says they know the right way and the wrong way if full of it.  But again, my problem is not that someone may have that opinion, it’s that they feel the right to be the arbiter of right and wrong rather than simply stating their perspective.  There’s a difference between saying ‘I disagree and here’s why…’ and ‘No you’re wrong and not qualified to have an opinion…’, the latter of which is super common in the instruction forum and makes it kind of an echo chamber.

[Valtiel]

6 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

I don’t believe there is anything black and white or right or wrong about the golf swing.  There are many different ways to skin that cat, and anyone who says they know the right way and the wrong way if full of it. 

So how then do you contend with all of the objective and observed separations between good and bad golfers? I can rattle off half a dozen things that the average "poor" golfer does that literally no pros do ever, under any circumstance. Things that aren't matters of opinion but measurable objective facts. Where would you put those then? Or would you just argue that i'm wrong and nothing can be measured? Or that nothing measured matters because "many ways to skin a cat" etc? 

The problem as I see it is that with the rise of modern measurement methods, what you're saying would have definitely popped up in the data, and it hasn't. That being a general inability to draw parallels between differing players, little to no correlation between various data points, and overall very few solid "patterns" if that makes sense. I acknowledge that it's easy to draw patterns where none exist, but thankfully there has been enough independent verification across various unaffiliated third parties as to rule out that being some systemic infection in the process. But to insist that there are no black and whites is to insist that there are no patterns, or that the patterns that do exist aren't significant. That is a VERY heavy statement to make that would require some serious backing to support it beyond just your feelings on the matter, and I'd argue that the FAR more ironic thing is for you to state something like that as though *you* are qualified to say as much. Because in doing so you're going against a lot of very very smart people and very advanced machinery that would all disagree with you. 

And regarding the areas that are in fact grey, of which I agree there are plenty, it's the black and white patterns that exist that help us fill in those areas. There isn't a single pro that does something outside the established norm that doesn't *also* do something else outside the norm to balance it in one way or another. 

Edited January 4 by Valtiel

[Valtiel]

31 minutes ago, mshills said:

If you are dispensing advice, you must post up your swing.

Lets meet up at the South Hills Giant Eagle Market District parking lot and compare swings. I'll be dressed like this 😂

[Ty_Webb]

19 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

And therein lies the difference of opinion.  I don’t believe there is anything black and white or right or wrong about the golf swing.  There are many different ways to skin that cat, and anyone who says they know the right way and the wrong way if full of it.  But again, my problem is not that someone may have that opinion, it’s that they feel the right to be the arbiter of right and wrong rather than simply stating their perspective.  There’s a difference between saying ‘I disagree and here’s why…’ and ‘No you’re wrong and not qualified to have an opinion…’, the latter of which is super common in the instruction forum and makes it kind of an echo chamber.

 

I think frequently it starts with "I disagree and here's why...", but the responses to that are often dismissive and disingenuous and then it degenerates.

 

For me personally, I quite enjoy reading the instruction and academy forum. There are plenty of knowledgeable posters here and I have a reasonable idea of who they are. It's fairly easy to tell based on the language that they use (designed to explain clearly vs designed to sound clever) and the insightfulness of what they say. It also helps knowing that they are a coach or what have you. The idea of posting thoughts on the swing or the game when you have little to nothing to really base that on is ridiculous to me. There are a lot of posts on that forum that shouldn't be made. I am not suggesting that I get to say what those are. The people posting them should know. Some of them I think are trolling. Some of them are walking, talking examples of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action. I know just about enough to know that I'm pretty much clueless on the swing. That's why you won't see me posting any swing advice. I have spent quite a lot of time on the strategy side of things, so I might pop up in those threads from time to time. But I know what my lane is and am happy to stay in it. 

[mshills]

28 minutes ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

I think frequently it starts with "I disagree and here's why...", but the responses to that are often dismissive and disingenuous and then it degenerates.

 

For me personally, I quite enjoy reading the instruction and academy forum. There are plenty of knowledgeable posters here and I have a reasonable idea of who they are. It's fairly easy to tell based on the language that they use (designed to explain clearly vs designed to sound clever) and the insightfulness of what they say. It also helps knowing that they are a coach or what have you. The idea of posting thoughts on the swing or the game when you have little to nothing to really base that on is ridiculous to me. There are a lot of posts on that forum that shouldn't be made. I am not suggesting that I get to say what those are. The people posting them should know. Some of them I think are trolling. Some of them are walking, talking examples of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action. I know just about enough to know that I'm pretty much clueless on the swing. That's why you won't see me posting any swing advice. I have spent quite a lot of time on the strategy side of things, so I might pop up in those threads from time to time. But I know what my lane is and am happy to stay in it. 

When Mr. Dunning or his buddy Mr. Kruger receive a dismissive reply, that is totally fine. Those guys end up running the site and leave no capacity for someone who has legitimate questions to get help. 

[bladehunter]

On 1/3/2025 at 4:28 PM, Valtiel said:

So how then do you contend with all of the objective and observed separations between good and bad golfers? I can rattle off half a dozen things that the average "poor" golfer does that literally no pros do ever, under any circumstance. Things that aren't matters of opinion but measurable objective facts. Where would you put those then? Or would you just argue that i'm wrong and nothing can be measured? Or that nothing measured matters because "many ways to skin a cat" etc? 

The problem as I see it is that with the rise of modern measurement methods, what you're saying would have definitely popped up in the data, and it hasn't. That being a general inability to draw parallels between differing players, little to no correlation between various data points, and overall very few solid "patterns" if that makes sense. I acknowledge that it's easy to draw patterns where none exist, but thankfully there has been enough independent verification across various unaffiliated third parties as to rule out that being some systemic infection in the process. But to insist that there are no black and whites is to insist that there are no patterns, or that the patterns that do exist aren't significant. That is a VERY heavy statement to make that would require some serious backing to support it beyond just your feelings on the matter, and I'd argue that the FAR more ironic thing is for you to state something like that as though *you* are qualified to say as much. Because in doing so you're going against a lot of very very smart people and very advanced machinery that would all disagree with you. 

And regarding the areas that are in fact grey, of which I agree there are plenty, it's the black and white patterns that exist that help us fill in those areas. There isn't a single pro that does something outside the established norm that doesn't *also* do something else outside the norm to balance it in one way or another. 

Great post.  And I agree. It does need to be said though.  Trust is a major issue in this. teachers have  been saying “ trust me bro “ for many years.  And with that giving some crazy advice. Maintain  Knee bend , swing to right field , to name few ….   You fall in one of two camps.  The sceptic or the herd animal.  And I think that’s just nature.  And skepticism is healthy , so long as it’s done in good faith.  If evidence is presented to prove such , it should squash all issues.  So long as the questions aren’t  met with condemnation, or jargon that’s designed for insider communication.  The jargon is inevitable and fine , IF it’s ok to ask what it means , and receive a response that isn’t high and mighty.  So yes. Trust.  Skepticism is made. Not born.  The teaching forefathers made it. Might take some time to earn it back. And that isn’t shot at anyone here.  Just food for thought.