Ball enters red staked area, but goes OOB after

[argee1977]

Just to get some clarification, on one of our holes, we have a red staked area at a corner, and white stakes on the other side of this corner, if a ball enters the hazard through the red stakes, but continues and rolls behind the area of the white stakes, is this treated as red, or OOB?

 

Just asking as i've treated this as being the entering the hazard, so a drop 2 club lengths where it enters for stroke penalty, rather than stroke and distance through OOB rules, but was queried at the weekend, UK so not sure there's any slight differences between R&A and USGA?

[GoGoErky]

I would think it’s where the ball finishes and in this case it’s OB therefore entering the hazard isn’t relevant. Would be similar to a ball that enters a PA and then comes out the other side and is in play.

 

Shouldnt matter if UK or US as the ROG apply the same in both locations. 

[Mike_C]

Our club has a hole where they used to have this.  A red staked ditch/creek on the left, then some trees/mowed area just left of the creek, then there was OB 10 or so yards further left (if you keep going left you end up in people's backyards, but that is like 40 yards up a slight hill).  It was too confusing if someone hit a big hook that looked like it could go in the creek but might go over.  You never could see and tell if it cleared the creek and might be playable because of a small hill, or maybe went further and went OB.   They changed it so everything left is just a red hazard, even if you were in the old OB area.  If you get lucky and find your ball you can then play it, you have hit it back towards the fairway due to trees further up but its better than taking the drop.  

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, argee1977 said:

Just to get some clarification, on one of our holes, we have a red staked area at a corner, and white stakes on the other side of this corner, if a ball enters the hazard through the red stakes, but continues and rolls behind the area of the white stakes, is this treated as red, or OOB?

 

Just asking as i've treated this as being the entering the hazard, so a drop 2 club lengths where it enters for stroke penalty, rather than stroke and distance through OOB rules, but was queried at the weekend, UK so not sure there's any slight differences between R&A and USGA?

It is, as said, out of bounds. Where the ball comes to rest is what counts no matter where it has come from or skittered through or sailed majestically over.

 

For general interest, the R&A hard card (that is,  the local rules in operation at all their tournaments) includes this:

• When a penalty area adjoins a boundary, the penalty area edge extends to and coincides with the boundary.
• When a player’s ball is found in or it is known or virtually certain to have come to rest in any penalty area where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area at a point that coincides with the boundary of the course, opposite side relief is available under Model Local Rule B-2.1.

[davep043]

1 hour ago, Colin L said:

When a player’s ball is found in or it is known or virtually certain to have come to rest in any penalty area where the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area at a point that coincides with the boundary of the course, opposite side relief is available under Model Local Rule B-2.1.

For those that find this a little confusing, if your ball goes past the OB line, hits something and then bounces back into the Red Penalty Area, you can take relief on the golf course side of the Penalty Area.  Otherwise, the only available relief option is Stroke and Distance, as the potential relief area for both Lateral and BOTL relief would likely be OB.

 

As for the original question, I've seen a number of courses and competitions which state that Red Penalty Areas which border the course "extend to infinity".  That means that a ball that crosses the PA limit and ends up off the property can be treated as being in the PA, so that all PA relief options are available.  Without that definition, however, a ball that crosses the PA limit and then ends up OB is OB, you must play Stroke and Distance.

Edited August 6, 2024 by davep043

[nsxguy]

3 hours ago, argee1977 said:

Just to get some clarification, on one of our holes, we have a red staked area at a corner, and white stakes on the other side of this corner, if a ball enters the hazard through the red stakes, but continues and rolls behind the area of the white stakes, is this treated as red, or OOB?

 

Just asking as i've treated this as being the entering the hazard, so a drop 2 club lengths where it enters for stroke penalty, rather than stroke and distance through OOB rules, but was queried at the weekend, UK so not sure there's any slight differences between R&A and USGA?

 

26 minutes ago, davep043 said:

As for the original question, I've seen a number of courses and competitions which state that Red Penalty Areas which border the course "extend to infinity".  That means that a ball that crosses the PA limit and ends up off the property can be treated as being in the PA, so that all PA relief options are available.  Without that definition, however, a ball that crosses the PA limit and then ends up OB is OB, you must play Stroke and Distance.

 

So, bottom-lining the OP's question,,,,,,, if there is NO MLR in effect his ball is OB ?

[gavinski91]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

So, bottom-lining the OP's question,,,,,,, if there is NO MLR in effect his ball is OB ?

That would be my understanding. Could make for some difficulty though if you see the ball enter the penalty area, but don't see where it comes to rest (and don't find it), as without the MLR in place it could become difficult to KVC that the ball is in the penalty area when there's a possibility it may have continued into OB.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

So, bottom-lining the OP's question,,,,,,, if there is NO MLR in effect his ball is OB ?

 

His ball is out of bounds with or without Local Rules. As there is the OB line and the ball crosses it and remains on the "wrong" side of that line the ball is OB by definition, as already stated by others.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, gavinski91 said:

That would be my understanding. Could make for some difficulty though if you see the ball enter the penalty area, but don't see where it comes to rest (and don't find it), as without the MLR in place it could become difficult to KVC that the ball is in the penalty area when there's a possibility it may have continued into OB.

 

I wonder which MLR would you be referring to?

 

If you do not know whether the ball is in the PA or OB you must make a best estimate and have minimum of 95% certainty that one or the other option is the one.

[Mr. Bean]

3 hours ago, davep043 said:

As for the original question, I've seen a number of courses and competitions which state that Red Penalty Areas which border the course "extend to infinity".  That means that a ball that crosses the PA limit and ends up off the property can be treated as being in the PA, so that all PA relief options are available.  Without that definition, however, a ball that crosses the PA limit and then ends up OB is OB, you must play Stroke and Distance.

 

I have never seen a statement that says "Red Penalty Areas which border the course "extend to infinity"" when there is an OB line marked behind that PA. Have you?

[davep043]

10 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I have never seen a statement that says "Red Penalty Areas which border the course "extend to infinity"" when there is an OB line marked behind that PA. Have you?

When I've seen the "extend to infinity" language, there's usually not OB markers, but it IS off of the golf course property.  I'm looking at the VSGA hard card, "when a Penalty Area is defined on only one side, it extends to infinity".  They also utilize MLR B-2.2 allowing "opposite side lateral relief" when a ball enters a PA from the a side marked as OB.  So they cover both cases, with and without defined OB.

Edited August 6, 2024 by davep043

[nsxguy]

13 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

His ball is out of bounds with or without Local Rules. As there is the OB line and the ball crosses it and remains on the "wrong" side of that line the ball is OB by definition, as already stated by others.

 

As @Colin L mentioned and @davep043 quoted, MLR B-2 seems to have an awful lot of options. As usual, I didn't read all of it.  

[Mr. Bean]

4 minutes ago, davep043 said:

When I've seen the "extend to infinity" language, there's usually not OB markers, but it IS off of the golf course property.  I'm looking at the VSGA hard card, "when a Penalty Area is defined on only one side, it extends to infinity".  They also utilize MLR B-2.2 allowing "opposite side lateral relief" when a ball enters a PA from the a side marked as OB.  So they cover both cases, with and without defined OB.

 

Around here I have seen those "extend to infinity" by the sea shore or a lake, or with terrain virtually unreachable (if a ball could be found it would be totally impossible to play it). Nowhere have I seen OB line beyond those red stakes, and it makes no sense to use that phrase if there is OB line as the PA extends only up to that line, no further (there can be no PA outside the course by definition).

[gavinski91]

55 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

I wonder which MLR would you be referring to?

 

If you do not know whether the ball is in the PA or OB you must make a best estimate and have minimum of 95% certainty that one or the other option is the one.

I was referring to the use of MLR B-1 to have PA extend off the golf course property and not have OB marked at that point in the course in order to reduce potential confusion about KVC in an area where there is a likelihood of a ball landing in the penalty area and rolling into OB.

 

As far as 95% certainty goes, that really only applies if you want to take lateral, back on the line, or MLR E-5 relief - you could always take stroke and distance relief regardless of your level of certainty.

[Mr. Bean]

20 minutes ago, gavinski91 said:

As far as 95% certainty goes, that really only applies if you want to take lateral, back on the line, or MLR E-5 relief - you could always take stroke and distance relief regardless of your level of certainty.

 

That applies also when it is not 100% certain if your ball is EITHER in a PA OR gone OB. Once you have that 95% (= KVC) you will know your options how to proceed.

[argee1977]

I think it's even more confusing than this, i should have said, the ball doesn't cross an OOB stake, the red stakes and white stakes are basically in a line, it enters via the red stake, but then rolls forward a few feet and sits behind the white stake, so didn't enter via white stakes, just rolled up.

[antip]

37 minutes ago, argee1977 said:

I think it's even more confusing than this, i should have said, the ball doesn't cross an OOB stake, the red stakes and white stakes are basically in a line, it enters via the red stake, but then rolls forward a few feet and sits behind the white stake, so didn't enter via white stakes, just rolled up.

It's solely about the position of the ball. If it came to rest off the course as you indicate, it is OOB, end of story. S&D is required. 

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, argee1977 said:

I think it's even more confusing than this, i should have said, the ball doesn't cross an OOB stake, the red stakes and white stakes are basically in a line, it enters via the red stake, but then rolls forward a few feet and sits behind the white stake, so didn't enter via white stakes, just rolled up.

Doesn’t change anything. It’s where the ball finishes. In this case and the original it finished OB therefore it’s OB

[Newby]

3 hours ago, argee1977 said:

I think it's even more confusing than this, i should have said, the ball doesn't cross an OOB stake, the red stakes and white stakes are basically in a line, it enters via the red stake, but then rolls forward a few feet and sits behind the white stake, so didn't enter via white stakes, just rolled up.

There should have been an indication (stakes or a line) marking the margin between the PA and OOB. As there wasn't it is often convention to use an invisible line at right angles to the existing margins.

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, antip said:

It's solely about the position of the ball. If it came to rest off the course as you indicate, it is OOB, end of story. S&D is required. 

 

Indeed. I truly wonder what can be confusing in that.

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

There should have been an indication (stakes or a line) marking the margin between the PA and OOB. As there wasn't it is often convention to use an invisible line at right angles to the existing margins.

 

That is the case unfortunately often, the OB (or PA) line is not marked to "end" (which it cannot do) with two adjacent stakes or with a painted arrow.

[nsxguy]

This is just a test