Finally taking putting seriously

[iacas]

46 minutes ago, TheDeanAbides said:

Missed this reply. The embarrassing truth is that I don’t know. My putting has nearly all been intuitive. Only “rock the shoulders” means anything out of those ideas. I feel like my hands control the stroke, but I don’t feel much control. Firming up my grip a lot has helped. 

 

I might recommend experimenting with this a bit.

 

I'm partial to more of an Utley type method (I'm sure he's not the first to teach it, and I've always putted that way but when I read his book it was the first time it sounded like what I had been doing), as I feel my sternum and thus spine/neck/torso can remain almost dead still.

 

But you may find that the old "rock the shoulders" doesn't work for you very well. IMO it requires a counter-movement of your neck to keep your eyes steady.

[TheDeanAbides]

1 hour ago, GungHoGolf said:

Learning to / convincing yourself to love putting is a big key. For me, that means loving the feel of putting a pure roll on the ball and starting it online, and detaching myself from the outcome.

 

One thing I’ve recently employed in my routine that has had a huge positive effect is “look for the ghost ball image,” which I learned from Fred Shoemaker’s book Extraordinary Putting (highly recommended). Right before I pull the trigger, I stare directly at the center of the ball for 3-4 seconds, then make a stroke while maintaining that focus and look for the afterimage of the ball where it sat. With a white ball, it’s a dark spot on the turf, and it feels almost magical to see it persist for a couple of seconds. This ensures I’ve kept my head still, didn’t follow the putter backswing with my eyes, and didn’t peek early, and helps detach myself from the outcome. My favorite thing is hearing a 5-footer drop in the cup while still looking at the afterimage.

I'm starting to feel that. Being forced to make putting my entire focus rather than an afterthought has helped shift my attitude. Today I made three five footers in a row in a triangle around the hole and felt like a king. 

 

That might not seem like much, but this is the guy who regularly went entire summers without making a single putt over about 8 feet. 

 

I love that book too. I think, for reasons already mentioned, I probably didn't even read the putting advice! 

[TheDeanAbides]

28 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

Same. Putting is fun when its just an intuitive exercise, but for me in order for that intuition to be applied to the helpful areas (feeling the break, seeing the angles, judging the speed etc) I had to get all the technical crap out of the way, and that is what that setup and stroke adjustments allowed me to do. I also experiment with having all my grip pressure in one hand with the other just there for support, kinda like what the claw grip does for users of it, but in a conventional reverse overlap. I can flip this though and go full Stricker and have all the pressure in my left hand if I want a change in feel. 

The only other big thing for me was shoulder alignment as I have a natural tendency (like many) to let my lead shoulder droop/sink back a bit, and with all the above correctly in place that immediately results in the putter wanting to move outside when I take it back, basically along the now "open" shoulder alignment because of the sunken lead shoulder. Making sure I keep that shoulder up and "out" neutralizes that, and with the above stuff putting is WAY more fun because I no longer feel like i'm fighting of manufacturing anything. I'd still like to experiment with different putter types/styles, but thankfully I don't feel the need to. Not yet anyway. 😅

I look forward to hearing what you find here 💪

That video I linked to above in answer to Erik really helped me with shoulder alignment. Simply taking your hands off the putter and letting the arms hang down shows whether you're square or not. That's already made a difference. 

[TheDeanAbides]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

I might recommend experimenting with this a bit.

 

I'm partial to more of an Utley type method (I'm sure he's not the first to teach it, and I've always putted that way but when I read his book it was the first time it sounded like what I had been doing), as I feel my sternum and thus spine/neck/torso can remain almost dead still.

 

But you may find that the old "rock the shoulders" doesn't work for you very well. IMO it requires a counter-movement of your neck to keep your eyes steady.

Makes a lot of sense. I'll look into all of the methods you mentioned and experiment. I was a terrible tinkerer with my full swing grip for about 10 years, but once I found one that worked for me I never thought about it again. Hopefully I get to that point with the mechanics and trigger of the stroke, so I can spend my time focusing on holing putts.

[slytown]

On 8/14/2024 at 10:24 AM, TheDeanAbides said:

This is the style that I find best suits me. What I struggle with is how to 'power' the stroke - shoulders or hands? I find that, for no reason that I can be sure of, I have a tendency to take the putter back too far inside... and sometimes outside when I try to adjust for that. This creates an uncertainty so I'm too busy focusing on what my stroke is doing rather than the correct speed. 

 

Aimpoint is definitely something I'm going to try. It wasn't on my radar at all when I had to give up last. 

All strokes around the greens except flops should be shoulder powered. You may want to try aimpoint but that wont improve your stroke. There is no magic process that will automatically make your stroke better.

 

My guess is if you miss your line a lot, you probably use your hands too much. Not everyone can putt like Jack or Crenshaw did. The best, most consistent stroke is shoulder based. Its up to u to decide the arc and matching a putter tonit. Do u play a mallet or blade? Whats your hosel structure? 

 

Ive always been a good putter and I think its partially skill but also I play an old blade with a short slant. This fits my putting arc really well. I can take it straight back on short putts and point the toe down, but most of my strokes have a slight arc to them.

[nosil]

40 minutes ago, slytown said:

All strokes around the greens except flops should be shoulder powered.

 

Ive always been a good putter and I think its partially skill

What evidence/proof do you have to show strokes should be shoulder powered as true?  
 

I’d say it is more than partial skill.  Aiming the putter correctly and consistently is a skill,  making a stroke to start the ball where you are aiming is a skill, reading the green is a skill, putting with the correct touch is a skill.   

Edited August 16, 2024 by nosil

[TheDeanAbides]

49 minutes ago, slytown said:

All strokes around the greens except flops should be shoulder powered. You may want to try aimpoint but that wont improve your stroke. There is no magic process that will automatically make your stroke better.

 

My guess is if you miss your line a lot, you probably use your hands too much. Not everyone can putt like Jack or Crenshaw did. The best, most consistent stroke is shoulder based. Its up to u to decide the arc and matching a putter tonit. Do u play a mallet or blade? Whats your hosel structure? 

 

Ive always been a good putter and I think its partially skill but also I play an old blade with a short slant. This fits my putting arc really well. I can take it straight back on short putts and point the toe down, but most of my strokes have a slight arc to them.

Whilst I appreciate your position I disagree with your first point about how shots around the green should all be played. I’m an excellent chipper and use various techniques - some shoulders triggered and others hands triggered with equal ease. 
 

Yes, I do miss my line a lot, although I’m now able to diagnose that a bit better - it's often hips moving - but I also struggle to trust my read because, as I mentioned above, my health condition affects my eyes in a weird way that means I mistrust my read. 
 

It’s noticeable that having spent several hours on the putting green over the last week has allowed me to get to know the lines somewhat. That trust has improved my commitment to the stroke.
 

My plan is to do the following:

 

1) work on my stroke both at home and the club to make it more consistent in delivery.

 

2) learn Aimpoint so I can take my untrustworthy eyes out of the equation.

 

3) develop as solid a putting routine as my swing has. 
 

4) learn to embrace the challenge and enjoying putting as much as the full swing. 

Edited August 16, 2024 by TheDeanAbides
typo

[MelloYello]

This might sound selfish and lazy but I tend to avoid "drills" in which I'm tasked with essentially "beating balls" with a putter. Standing anywhere and hitting the same shot (or putt) repeatedly tends to accomplish very little in developing ones actual skills IMHO. 

 

I like to think of putting as being comprised of constituent skills like setup / posture, alignment to target, stroke path, stroke flow, start line, green-reading, knowledge retention & application, commitment to feel, etc. 

 

Any 1 putt you attempt is a combination of all those things. So the act of making a putt tends to be more of a "test" than a "teach."

 

Taking the same test over and over doesn't really do much to improve your ability and your brain tends to turn off and stop learning anyway. It would be like standing on the range and hitting your sand wedge at a flag 80-yds away for 15 straight minutes until you hit the stick...is that really improving your ability to go and hit the next 92-yd shot on the course? What about the next 132-yd shot? Would that be improved at all? 

 

I think most would agree there are diminishing returns to that kind of beating balls. I know that while it's fun to do the same thing over and over, it usually results in nothing being gained. 

 

This isn't to say that one should make every single putt different during practice. Rather I think you should try and attack individual skills as much as possible knowing that all the skills affect each other. You might test your start line with a gate drill only to find it's a setup issue rather than a stroke problem. Again there, the drill serves only as a test and a source of feedback rather than one of skill enhancement. 

 

Likewise, I think when it comes to distance control, that's mostly about familiarity, experience and commitment. I don't know what 50-ft feels like. I just know I've hit those putts before and that my brain will take care of it when I stroke the ball if I free myself up. Of course however it's true that if I never hit those putts in practice, my experience is lacking and I'll be guessing when they arise on the course. But that doesn't mean I want to stand there hitting 50-ft putts for 15 straight minutes either. 

 

Just some thoughts on how I approach it. I guess my general philosophy is that my setup gives me a chance and it's up to green reading from there. I really don't get bogged down with drills that have me "beating balls" much at all.

 

Good results come sort of naturally if your setup and stroke is good, especially if you play a lot of golf which I imagine you do if you're concerned with sharpening your putting abilities to bring it in line with an otherwise scratch golf game. 👍

 

.

Edited August 16, 2024 by MelloYello

[slytown]

25 minutes ago, MelloYello said:

This might sound selfish and lazy but I tend to avoid "drills" in which I'm tasked with essentially "beating balls" with a putter. Standing anywhere and hitting the same shot (or putt) repeatedly tends to accomplish very little in developing ones actual skills IMHO. 

 

I like to think of putting as being comprised of constituent skills like setup / posture, alignment to target, stroke path, stroke flow, start line, green-reading, knowledge retention & application, commitment to feel, etc. 

 

Any 1 putt you attempt is a combination of all those things. So the act of making a putt tends to be more of a "test" than a "teach."

 

Taking the same test over and over doesn't really do much to improve your ability and your brain tends to turn off and stop learning anyway. It would be like standing on the range and hitting your sand wedge at a flag 80-yds away for 15 straight minutes until you hit the stick...is that really improving your ability to go and hit the next 92-yd shot on the course? What about the next 132-yd shot? Would that be improved at all? 

 

I think most would agree there are diminishing returns to that kind of beating balls. I know that while it's fun to do the same thing over and over, it usually results in nothing being gained. 

 

This isn't to say that one should make every single putt different during practice. Rather I think you should try and attack individual skills as much as possible knowing that all the skills affect each other. You might test your start line with a gate drill only to find it's a setup issue rather than a stroke problem. Again there, the drill serves only as a test and a source of feedback rather than one of skill enhancement. 

 

Likewise, I think when it comes to distance control, that's mostly about familiarity, experience and commitment. I don't know what 50-ft feels like. I just know I've hit those putts before and that my brain will take care of it when I stroke the ball if I free myself up. Of course however it's true that if I never hit those putts in practice, my experience is lacking and I'll be guessing when they arise on the course. But that doesn't mean I want to stand there hitting 50-ft putts for 15 straight minutes either. 

 

Just some thoughts on how I approach it. I guess my general philosophy is that my setup gives me a chance and it's up to green reading from there. I really don't get bogged down with drills that have me "beating balls" much at all.

 

Good results come sort of naturally if your setup and stroke is good, especially if you play a lot of golf which I imagine you do if you're concerned with sharpening your putting abilities to bring it in line with an otherwise scratch golf game. 👍

 

.

 

This. The putting stroke is much simpler than a long iron, so it doesn't need repetitive stroke practice to make improvement. It's a very simple shoulder movement. More time should be devoted to gauging speed than anything else. Reading lines is quite difficult unless you know a green already. I like to think of reading lines as my lag putting but my speed as my precision putting. However, I do think you can grind out 3 foot putts. Those should be more repeatable and benefit from repetitive stroke practice.

[MelloYello]

58 minutes ago, slytown said:

 

This. The putting stroke is much simpler than a long iron, so it doesn't need repetitive stroke practice to make improvement. It's a very simple shoulder movement. More time should be devoted to gauging speed than anything else. Reading lines is quite difficult unless you know a green already. I like to think of reading lines as my lag putting but my speed as my precision putting. However, I do think you can grind out 3 foot putts. Those should be more repeatable and benefit from repetitive stroke practice.

 

Yeah, I was just thinking of how golf doesn't really give us a "standard shot" the way you sometimes see in other sports with free throws, penalty kicks, point after FGs, etc. 

 

The closest we have is the short putt, I guess, but even those sometimes require a bit of green-reading, too, making them each a bit unique in many cases. 

 

Much like you said about "precision putts" I tend to think of those short putts as basically all about start line. 

 

.

Edited August 16, 2024 by MelloYello

[jholz]

Because putting can be broken into several discreet skills - green reading, alignment, stroke, distance control, etc. - I find drills to be very useful for working on particular skills, ingraining good habits, and diagnosing problems when things are going wrong. 

 

Of course, drills are only as useful as one makes them - and should always be reinforced with other types of practice that closely resemble play on the course.

[TheDeanAbides]

1 hour ago, MelloYello said:

This might sound selfish and lazy but I tend to avoid "drills" in which I'm tasked with essentially "beating balls" with a putter. Standing anywhere and hitting the same shot (or putt) repeatedly tends to accomplish very little in developing ones actual skills IMHO. 

 

I like to think of putting as being comprised of constituent skills like setup / posture, alignment to target, stroke path, stroke flow, start line, green-reading, knowledge retention & application, commitment to feel, etc. 

 

Any 1 putt you attempt is a combination of all those things. So the act of making a putt tends to be more of a "test" than a "teach."

 

Taking the same test over and over doesn't really do much to improve your ability and your brain tends to turn off and stop learning anyway. It would be like standing on the range and hitting your sand wedge at a flag 80-yds away for 15 straight minutes until you hit the stick...is that really improving your ability to go and hit the next 92-yd shot on the course? What about the next 132-yd shot? Would that be improved at all? 

 

I think most would agree there are diminishing returns to that kind of beating balls. I know that while it's fun to do the same thing over and over, it usually results in nothing being gained. 

 

This isn't to say that one should make every single putt different during practice. Rather I think you should try and attack individual skills as much as possible knowing that all the skills affect each other. You might test your start line with a gate drill only to find it's a setup issue rather than a stroke problem. Again there, the drill serves only as a test and a source of feedback rather than one of skill enhancement. 

 

Likewise, I think when it comes to distance control, that's mostly about familiarity, experience and commitment. I don't know what 50-ft feels like. I just know I've hit those putts before and that my brain will take care of it when I stroke the ball if I free myself up. Of course however it's true that if I never hit those putts in practice, my experience is lacking and I'll be guessing when they arise on the course. But that doesn't mean I want to stand there hitting 50-ft putts for 15 straight minutes either. 

 

Just some thoughts on how I approach it. I guess my general philosophy is that my setup gives me a chance and it's up to green reading from there. I really don't get bogged down with drills that have me "beating balls" much at all.

 

Good results come sort of naturally if your setup and stroke is good, especially if you play a lot of golf which I imagine you do if you're concerned with sharpening your putting abilities to bring it in line with an otherwise scratch golf game. 👍

 

.

Great post, thank you. 

[MK7Golf21]

who here has a step in routine line Billy Horschel/sneaking up to the edge of a deadly cliff?

[virtuoso]

2 hours ago, MelloYello said:

This might sound selfish and lazy but I tend to avoid "drills" in which I'm tasked with essentially "beating balls" with a putter. Standing anywhere and hitting the same shot (or putt) repeatedly tends to accomplish very little in developing ones actual skills IMHO. 

 

I like to think of putting as being comprised of constituent skills like setup / posture, alignment to target, stroke path, stroke flow, start line, green-reading, knowledge retention & application, commitment to feel, etc. 

 

Any 1 putt you attempt is a combination of all those things. So the act of making a putt tends to be more of a "test" than a "teach."

 

Taking the same test over and over doesn't really do much to improve your ability and your brain tends to turn off and stop learning anyway. It would be like standing on the range and hitting your sand wedge at a flag 80-yds away for 15 straight minutes until you hit the stick...is that really improving your ability to go and hit the next 92-yd shot on the course? What about the next 132-yd shot? Would that be improved at all? 

 

I think most would agree there are diminishing returns to that kind of beating balls. I know that while it's fun to do the same thing over and over, it usually results in nothing being gained. 

 

This isn't to say that one should make every single putt different during practice. Rather I think you should try and attack individual skills as much as possible knowing that all the skills affect each other. You might test your start line with a gate drill only to find it's a setup issue rather than a stroke problem. Again there, the drill serves only as a test and a source of feedback rather than one of skill enhancement. 

 

Likewise, I think when it comes to distance control, that's mostly about familiarity, experience and commitment. I don't know what 50-ft feels like. I just know I've hit those putts before and that my brain will take care of it when I stroke the ball if I free myself up. Of course however it's true that if I never hit those putts in practice, my experience is lacking and I'll be guessing when they arise on the course. But that doesn't mean I want to stand there hitting 50-ft putts for 15 straight minutes either. 

 

Just some thoughts on how I approach it. I guess my general philosophy is that my setup gives me a chance and it's up to green reading from there. I really don't get bogged down with drills that have me "beating balls" much at all.

 

Good results come sort of naturally if your setup and stroke is good, especially if you play a lot of golf which I imagine you do if you're concerned with sharpening your putting abilities to bring it in line with an otherwise scratch golf game. 👍

 

.

Maybe one of the best wrx posts in recent memory.

[SNIPERBBB]

4 hours ago, MelloYello said:

This might sound selfish and lazy but I tend to avoid "drills" in which I'm tasked with essentially "beating balls" with a putter. Standing anywhere and hitting the same shot (or putt) repeatedly tends to accomplish very little in developing ones actual skills IMHO. 

 

I like to think of putting as being comprised of constituent skills like setup / posture, alignment to target, stroke path, stroke flow, start line, green-reading, knowledge retention & application, commitment to feel, etc. 

 

Any 1 putt you attempt is a combination of all those things. So the act of making a putt tends to be more of a "test" than a "teach."

 

Taking the same test over and over doesn't really do much to improve your ability and your brain tends to turn off and stop learning anyway. It would be like standing on the range and hitting your sand wedge at a flag 80-yds away for 15 straight minutes until you hit the stick...is that really improving your ability to go and hit the next 92-yd shot on the course? What about the next 132-yd shot? Would that be improved at all? 

 

I think most would agree there are diminishing returns to that kind of beating balls. I know that while it's fun to do the same thing over and over, it usually results in nothing being gained. 

 

This isn't to say that one should make every single putt different during practice. Rather I think you should try and attack individual skills as much as possible knowing that all the skills affect each other. You might test your start line with a gate drill only to find it's a setup issue rather than a stroke problem. Again there, the drill serves only as a test and a source of feedback rather than one of skill enhancement. 

 

Likewise, I think when it comes to distance control, that's mostly about familiarity, experience and commitment. I don't know what 50-ft feels like. I just know I've hit those putts before and that my brain will take care of it when I stroke the ball if I free myself up. Of course however it's true that if I never hit those putts in practice, my experience is lacking and I'll be guessing when they arise on the course. But that doesn't mean I want to stand there hitting 50-ft putts for 15 straight minutes either. 

 

Just some thoughts on how I approach it. I guess my general philosophy is that my setup gives me a chance and it's up to green reading from there. I really don't get bogged down with drills that have me "beating balls" much at all.

 

Good results come sort of naturally if your setup and stroke is good, especially if you play a lot of golf which I imagine you do if you're concerned with sharpening your putting abilities to bring it in line with an otherwise scratch golf game. 👍

 

.

You never want to live in drills. Short bursts of time they are good especially when you're trying to work on something.

 

With the full swing being too drill oriented is a good way to start down the road of over exaggeration which ends in tears.

 

Putting drills seem to be more diagnostic than repairs.

Edited August 16, 2024 by SNIPERBBB

[golferdude54]

5 hours ago, MelloYello said:

This might sound selfish and lazy but I tend to avoid "drills" in which I'm tasked with essentially "beating balls" with a putter. Standing anywhere and hitting the same shot (or putt) repeatedly tends to accomplish very little in developing ones actual skills IMHO. 

 

I like to think of putting as being comprised of constituent skills like setup / posture, alignment to target, stroke path, stroke flow, start line, green-reading, knowledge retention & application, commitment to feel, etc. 

 

Any 1 putt you attempt is a combination of all those things. So the act of making a putt tends to be more of a "test" than a "teach."

 

Taking the same test over and over doesn't really do much to improve your ability and your brain tends to turn off and stop learning anyway. It would be like standing on the range and hitting your sand wedge at a flag 80-yds away for 15 straight minutes until you hit the stick...is that really improving your ability to go and hit the next 92-yd shot on the course? What about the next 132-yd shot? Would that be improved at all? 

 

I think most would agree there are diminishing returns to that kind of beating balls. I know that while it's fun to do the same thing over and over, it usually results in nothing being gained. 

 

This isn't to say that one should make every single putt different during practice. Rather I think you should try and attack individual skills as much as possible knowing that all the skills affect each other. You might test your start line with a gate drill only to find it's a setup issue rather than a stroke problem. Again there, the drill serves only as a test and a source of feedback rather than one of skill enhancement. 

 

Likewise, I think when it comes to distance control, that's mostly about familiarity, experience and commitment. I don't know what 50-ft feels like. I just know I've hit those putts before and that my brain will take care of it when I stroke the ball if I free myself up. Of course however it's true that if I never hit those putts in practice, my experience is lacking and I'll be guessing when they arise on the course. But that doesn't mean I want to stand there hitting 50-ft putts for 15 straight minutes either. 

 

Just some thoughts on how I approach it. I guess my general philosophy is that my setup gives me a chance and it's up to green reading from there. I really don't get bogged down with drills that have me "beating balls" much at all.

 

Good results come sort of naturally if your setup and stroke is good, especially if you play a lot of golf which I imagine you do if you're concerned with sharpening your putting abilities to bring it in line with an otherwise scratch golf game. 👍

 

.

It’s not that block practice is not productive, it’s the way most players go about it is.

 

They lack clear objectives to accomplish and it doesn’t carry over to the course as a result.

 

A perfect round of golf is 54, and that’s typically 36 shots and 18 putts in regulation.
 

Making 18 15-footers in a row would break the PGA Tour record for distance made in putts for a round (Cameron Smith in 2022 British Open).
 

How many players have you seen actually make that many in a row on the practice putting green with good speed to boot? Same for lag putts from over 40 feet to 2 feet.

 

It doesn’t matter if it’s a straight putt every time in that type of practice scenario, you accomplish those objectives, your skill does improve a lot and it does show on the course.

[Nard_S]

6 hours ago, nosil said:

What evidence/proof do you have to show strokes should be shoulder powered as true?

Watch tour players, they use shoulder rock on putting & torso rotation on chips/pitches to a much higher degree than average joes. They delegate away from hands much more and trying to emulate those things are more encompassing in effort but the payoff is there.

[Jaxtiger]

I'll say, I got on SAM putt lab and it was wild. Putting is so much of a targeting, perception thing. I thought I was pushing putts and it was so frustrating because I worked hard on my setup to be neutral and not contributing to any bad stroke mechanics.

 

Turns out I was aiming 4 degrees right consistently with my putter and I tried another putter with more alignment features and automatically aimed only 1 degree to the right consistently. For those of you that dont know, you will miss the hole from 5 feet with a clubface 2 degrees open/closed.

 

Then we moved ball position a touch forward and I adjusted my neck tilt, flexing the neck more to influence my gaze more to the left when I looked up at the line. Got me dialed. Turns of my the stroke itself wasn't actually the problem.

 

To top it all off, we went and did work outside to test my green reading and aim. I frequently read left to right putts well and aimed the putter fairly well. However, I consistently underread right to left putts and then would aim right to compensate.

 

Takeaway: go get fit for your putter and make sure you are aiming where you think you are. S/o David Angelotti

Edited August 16, 2024 by Jaxtiger

[SNIPERBBB]

1 hour ago, Nard_S said:

Watch tour players, they use shoulder rock on putting & torso rotation on chips/pitches to a much higher degree than average joes. They delegate away from hands much more and trying to emulate those things are more encompassing in effort but the payoff is there.

they're also generally playing on greens that are like glass compared to greens most ams play.

[Nard_S]

7 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

they're also generally playing on greens that are like glass compared to greens most ams play.

so what of it, distance control & reliable targeting remain same objective.

[nosil]

3 hours ago, Nard_S said:

Watch tour players, they use shoulder rock on putting & torso rotation on chips/pitches to a much higher degree than average joes. They delegate away from hands much more and trying to emulate those things are more encompassing in effort but the payoff is there.

Sure their shoulders move but that doesn't mean they use the shoulders to power the stroke.   Some players and their sources of power:

• Tiger Woods Trail arm dominant.
• Ben Crenshaw lead arm dominant.
• Arnold Palmer - Trail hand dominant.
• Nick Faldo - Left arm back right arm finish.
• Phi Kenyon moved Scotty Scheffler to a shoulder girdle rotation, in sync with his arm swing.

[Nard_S]

1 hour ago, nosil said:

Sure their shoulders move but that doesn't mean they use the shoulders to power the stroke.   Some players and their sources of power:

• Tiger Woods Trail arm dominant.
• Ben Crenshaw lead arm dominant.
• Arnold Palmer - Trail hand dominant.
• Nick Faldo - Left arm back right arm finish.
• Phi Kenyon moved Scotty Scheffler to a shoulder girdle rotation, in sync with his arm swing.

Any way you slice it many are delegating away from hands.Tiger uses a bunch of torso rotation on chip shots, his right hand has final say but it rides the horse of body rotation. Spieth does this too. Shoulder rock in putting is the norm on PGA, it's not 100% of power, it's more than you suggest though.

[nosil]

1 hour ago, Nard_S said:

Any way you slice it many are delegating away from hands.Tiger uses a bunch of torso rotation on chip shots, his right hand has final say but it rides the horse of body rotation. Spieth does this too. Shoulder rock in putting is the norm on PGA, it's not 100% of power, it's more than you suggest though.

 

We aren't talking about chip shots; this thread is about putting.  Also, not what I am suggesting.  This information was presented to me by a putting coach.    Where are you getting your information on what PGA players use for source of motion?

[Nard_S]

19 minutes ago, nosil said:

 

We aren't talking about chip shots; this thread is about putting.  Also, not what I am suggesting.  This information was presented to me by a putting coach.    Where are you getting your information on what PGA players use for source of motion?

 My left hand listens to Dave Stockton, my right, Tiger, my body the observable universe of PGA. You can see it every week on tour and you can do it yourself. There's a bunch of guys who do it. The one guy didn't do it and putted lights for years was Fowler, true hands guy back then, look where that went.

 

They rock the triangle and add some shaft lean with hands. You be surprised how much pop it adds and how much more controllable it is once you adapt. Took me months to mate things but stroke got much much better. I mention chipping because it's the same MO on delegation but not the same on what torso/ shoulders do. Rotation for chipping, rocking for putting. You do all this to simplify role of hands, they will do their job better on either shot type because of it.

[NosajNeelik]

On 8/16/2024 at 4:10 PM, Nard_S said:

Watch tour players, they use shoulder rock on putting & torso rotation on chips/pitches to a much higher degree than average joes. They delegate away from hands much more and trying to emulate those things are more encompassing in effort but the payoff is there.

Tiger said he uses his hands for shots around green, Jason day says body but feel ain’t real so you can’t just Saul “all shots are used with the shoulders” because it’s not true 

[TheDeanAbides]

Thanks to everyone for your contributions to the thread. I just want to say straight up that debate is fine, but please don’t let my thread become like so many in here…

 

I’ve been experimenting with how I power my putting stroke over the last few days. I’m a feel player around the greens, and even though the strike is decent with my putter when I power the stroke with my shoulders, my feel is very poor. 
 

I have to feel like the hands are in control, but that they’re the point of the triangle formed by the arms and shoulders. This is working best. 
 

It’s allowing me to be consistent with my structure and strike whilst also giving me the feel for distance I need. 

[TheDeanAbides]

Things are starting to feel really good. I’m standing up taller which is helping free my stroke up. I’m making more 8-15 footers in practice than I ever have. 
 

For the first time I’m lining up putts and expecting to make them, which is such a mental shift. 
 

I still have up watch my left hip which wants to move, but things are looking better. Who knew that caring about this part of the game might improve it!