Fitzpatrick cracked driver ruling a disgrace...

[Chunkitgood]

32 minutes ago, Nickb333 said:

Hmm. I was raised to believe golf was a game built around integrity. There are plenty, probably dozens of examples where rules officials ask a player what happened. With no contradictory evidence the players word is accepted as true and correct. 
 

In this instance, despite actual evidence that the driver is broken, which includes a crack in the face and a subsequent 3 iron like drive, the players word is dismissed. Wonderful. 

Rules are there for a reason.  The PGA Tour has a more stringent local rule for replacing clubs than the general rule.  The officials implemented that local rule properly, since it does not allow replacement for a cracked face.

 

Before getting bent out of shape, we might ask why the Tour has that particular local rule.  Nobody here knows enough, as far as I can tell, about running a pro golf tour to even speculate about why there is such a rule, much less argue against it intelligently.

 

 

 

[TiScape]

Reading thru this thread a bit makes me understand why ppl warn me to steer clear of the rules sub forum. 

😂

Edited August 27, 2024 by TiScape

[sui generis]

1 minute ago, TiScape said:

Reading thru this threads a bit makes me understand why ppl warn me to steer clear of the rules sub forum. 

😂

 

Ha, venture there.

 

Many come there and lurk for awhile and depart having convinced themselves that golf as they know it is sufficiently enjoyable and they don't need another layer of complexity, the Rules, to get on with their fun. That's okay. 🙂

 

Others, at first, quietly sit back and listen. They open the app and try to figure out what the nerds are talking about. By and by, perhaps they get hooked.

 

Then, the last group stumble in and annoy by pronouncing the Rules as stupid, outdated and only for the stuffed shirts. Don't let the door hit you on the way out is their fate.

[Nickb333]

34 minutes ago, Chunkitgood said:

Rules are there for a reason.  The PGA Tour has a more stringent local rule for replacing clubs than the general rule.  The officials implemented that local rule properly, since it does not allow replacement for a cracked face.

 

Before getting bent out of shape, we might ask why the Tour has that particular local rule.  Nobody here knows enough, as far as I can tell, about running a pro golf tour to even speculate about why there is such a rule, much less argue against it intelligently.

 

 

 

That’s the only part I’m having issue with. The rules absolutely allow for a cracked face club to be replaced. BUT, it’s totally subjective. IMO they blew it in this case. 
 

FWIW, I don’t feel bent at all. I’ve learned a lot here. Yet to be written off by some as the rules are stupid guy is insulting. I’m anything but that guy. When I see a rule written poorly or misapplied IMO, I’ll speak out. That’s all. I seek fairness and reasonable interpretation. 
 

Plenty of rules have been updated or flat out changed in my lifetime. I expect to see changes as long as I’m alive. 

[sui generis]

30 minutes ago, Nickb333 said:

I expect to see changes as long as I’m alive

 

You will not be disappointed. The ruling bodies are relentless in their efforts to make the Rules work for everyone. While TV golf has a seat at the table, their view is only one of many. 😉

[PedronNiall]

3 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

I don't think so. While there's some latitude in match play, TV golf doesn't work like that.

 

Can you point me to more than a handful of times where a competitor didn't agree with the player wanting to switch out a ball and the ball was later shown in a state that most would have found reasonable for replacement? Aside from anecdotes like the Seve instance Hawkeye mentioned I don't recall many. 

 

Scheffler was in full agreement that Fitzpatrick's club was damaged in the course of normal play and damaged to an extent it should be swapped. I doubt anyone else would have seen it differently if playing with him so I'm not sure what you mean by "TV golf doesn't work like that."

 

There are certainly disagreements at time about how a situation should be resolved but rarely even with millions on the line over the course of a season do players on any of the professional tours refuse to acknowledge reasonable evidence that another player should be able to swap equipment or that it was damaged in the normal course of play. Also rarely do we see any instance where a player damages their club through tantrums or the like where they try to skirt the rules and get a new club into play. 

 

It's a game of honor and in the majority of instances everyone involved acts as such, so there's no reason this shouldn't be similar. Lastly, I still see zero support for any visual examination that's going to prove a cracked club will still preform optimally, so the entire basis for the rule is shoddy to begin with. No rules official can eyeball a cracked driver and know that it's fine, period. 

[vtpachyderm]

I have no problems with either scenario - if the rules allow let them replace it, if not, deal with it and finish the round. Storm in a teacup. You've already secured all the tour benefits for next year, and it's just house money you're playing with.

 

I would guess since tour players hit the ball so hard, there is a limited lifespan of the driver, and then it's on them to know that maybe it's time to get a new head. With all the resources, why don't they get a fresh head at the start of every tournament. Maybe not all heads are created equal?

 

[Hawkeye77]

One explanation for the rule - maybe already covered. https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/tour-insider-reason-matt-fitzpatrick-driver/

 

 

[FriedEgg]

Sorry mate, the head must explode in your face before you are allowed to replace the club.  

[sui generis]

8 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

 

Can you point me to more than a handful of times where a competitor didn't agree with the player wanting to switch out a ball and the ball was later shown in a state that most would have found reasonable for replacement? Aside from anecdotes like the Seve instance Hawkeye mentioned I don't recall many. 

 

Scheffler was in full agreement that Fitzpatrick's club was damaged in the course of normal play and damaged to an extent it should be swapped. I doubt anyone else would have seen it differently if playing with him so I'm not sure what you mean by "TV golf doesn't work like that."

 

There are certainly disagreements at time about how a situation should be resolved but rarely even with millions on the line over the course of a season do players on any of the professional tours refuse to acknowledge reasonable evidence that another player should be able to swap equipment or that it was damaged in the normal course of play. Also rarely do we see any instance where a player damages their club through tantrums or the like where they try to skirt the rules and get a new club into play. 

 

It's a game of honor and in the majority of instances everyone involved acts as such, so there's no reason this shouldn't be similar. Lastly, I still see zero support for any visual examination that's going to prove a cracked club will still preform optimally, so the entire basis for the rule is shoddy to begin with. No rules official can eyeball a cracked driver and know that it's fine, period. 

 

R20.1b(1) Rules Issues in Match Play

Deciding Issues by Agreement. During a round, the players in a match may agree how to decide a Rules issue:

 

R20.1c(1) Rules Issues in Stroke Play

 

No Right to Decide Rules Issues by Agreement. The players are encouraged to help each other in applying the Rules, but they have no right to decide a Rules issue by agreement and any such agreement they may reach is not binding on any player, a referee or the Committee.

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=20

Edited August 27, 2024 by sui generis

[Titleist99]

8 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

t's a game of honor and in the majority of instances everyone involved acts as such, so there's no reason this shouldn't be similar. Lastly, I still see zero support for any visual examination that's going to prove a cracked club will still preform optimally, so the entire basis for the rule is shoddy to begin with. No rules official can eyeball a cracked driver and know that it's fine, period. 

Did more than one official examine the club's face? If so, what was the determination?

 

I think that this rule was instituted with manufacturers in mind..... 

[Jolter]

When I saw this happening my first thought was if the crack is visible, no matter the depth or speration, wouldn't that make the club automatically non-conforming? To me it was such a ridiculous ruling.

[Titleist99]

2 hours ago, sui generis said:

R20.1c(1) Rules Issues in Stroke Play

 

No Right to Decide Rules Issues by Agreement. The players are encouraged to help each other in applying the Rules, but they have no right to decide a Rules issue by agreement and any such agreement they may reach is not binding on any player, a referee or the Committee.

I am currently in the process of emailing this directly to Mr.  Scheffler. 🤣

 

Surprisingly, most pro golfers don't know the rules, and generally, their opinions are pretty self-serving.

 

 

 

 

s

[PedronNiall]

5 hours ago, sui generis said:

 

R20.1b(1) Rules Issues in Match Play

Deciding Issues by Agreement. During a round, the players in a match may agree how to decide a Rules issue:

 

R20.1c(1) Rules Issues in Stroke Play

 

No Right to Decide Rules Issues by Agreement. The players are encouraged to help each other in applying the Rules, but they have no right to decide a Rules issue by agreement and any such agreement they may reach is not binding on any player, a referee or the Committee.

 

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=rule&rulenum=20

 

Is your claim that in pro events two players do not agree between themselves if player one's ball is damaged sufficiently and instead must call in a rules official to determine if the ball is sufficiently damaged? 

 

 

AFAIK this is the rule that applies during professional events and is based on the assumption that the player will act honorably in attempting to utilize the rule and that the fellow competitor will be honorable in assessing whether or not there is damage. Is your contention that the replacement of a ball unfit for play is handled differently on TV than elsewhere? If I'm wrong about that I'm fine with being corrected. Never seen anything to indicate that's the case. 

 

The relevant points are one, players and their competitors are allowed to make a decision on the fitness of a player's equipment based on reasonable observation and their honor as golf professionals, and two, that as no visible assessment can determine with certainty that a cracked driver or wood will perform as it should, then based on the expected honorable conduct of the player and competitor they should be allowed to determine that a crack or visible deformation is present and a replacement should be allowed. 

 

I don't see how there's any denying that the original rule is shortsighted in that the effect of a crack cannot be assessed by the human eye and therefore no number of rules officials coming over to look at a driver are going to be able to make a sound determination of a club's fitness to continue play unless the damage is extreme. 

[PedronNiall]

5 hours ago, Titleist99 said:

Did more than one official examine the club's face? If so, what was the determination?

 

I think that this rule was instituted with manufacturers in mind..... 

 

Three officials examined it. I do not believe any of them have the required equipment in their eyeballs to determine the current state of a driver's performance, though, so whatever their decision had been it would have been guess work. The rule should be adjusted as any level of cracking can potentially affect the flight characteristics of a ball hit with it and no visual examination is going to be able to sus out what level of change may or may not occur at impact. 

[bscinstnct]

7 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

One explanation for the rule - maybe already covered. https://www.bunkered.co.uk/golf-news/tour-insider-reason-matt-fitzpatrick-driver/

 

 

 

Thanks Hawk

 

In reading the rule, it’s not written with any regard to the actual performance of the club being affected.

 

only with respect to it being “broken or significantly damaged”. And then it says that the club being scratched or cracked does not constitute it being broken or significantly damaged.

 

So, the rule was properly enforced as written. 
 

A driver could have a crack in the club face and it could affect the performance such that the ball only goes 2 feet. 
 

but the player would still not be able to replace it!

 

 

Edited August 27, 2024 by bscinstnct

[nsxguy]

1 hour ago, PedronNiall said:

 

Is your claim that in pro events two players do not agree between themselves if player one's ball is damaged sufficiently and instead must call in a rules official to determine if the ball is sufficiently damaged? 

 

 

AFAIK this is the rule that applies during professional events and is based on the assumption that the player will act honorably in attempting to utilize the rule and that the fellow competitor will be honorable in assessing whether or not there is damage. Is your contention that the replacement of a ball unfit for play is handled differently on TV than elsewhere? If I'm wrong about that I'm fine with being corrected. Never seen anything to indicate that's the case. 

 

The relevant points are one, players and their competitors are allowed to make a decision on the fitness of a player's equipment based on reasonable observation

 

Maybe I'm missing something but the larger type in your post describes what a player is required to do.

 

Am I missing the part that says the OTHER player must agree ?

[goudok]

You guys are all wrong here, Matt played a NON conforming driver and should've been disqualified and fined his entire seasons earnings and not be allowed to play any PGA TOUR events for 3 years.

[Hawkeye77]

2 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Thanks Hawk

 

In reading the rule, it’s not written with any regard to the actual performance of the club being affected.

 

only with respect to it being “broken or significantly damaged”. And then it says that the club being scratched or cracked does not constitute it being broken or significantly damaged.

 

So, the rule was properly enforced as written. 
 

A driver could have a crack in the club face and it could affect the performance such that the ball only goes 2 feet. 
 

but the player would still not be able to replace it!

 

 

Yep! I’m not claiming knowing enough info to weigh in on the ruling one way or the other but one outfit Fitzpatrick definitely has a beef with is the manufacturer. 

[ctjuniorffldcounty]

It was a bad ruling. Howeva , I do like seeing Pros not get their desired rulings every once in a while. Some memorable ones this year.

[PedronNiall]

On 8/27/2024 at 2:50 PM, nsxguy said:

 

Maybe I'm missing something but the larger type in your post describes what a player is required to do.

 

Am I missing the part that says the OTHER player must agree ?

 

Think I was reading too much into it based on how some other rules are handled. Guessing what's above is also from a USGA Local Rule. Here's the base rule directly from the most recent RoG, which mentions no requirements regarding differences during competition in the abridged or full version of the rule. 

 

 

 

Regarding Fitzpatrick's driver and any in the future, perhaps there were abuses of the base rule, but clearly a player can be heavily disadvantaged because of the extra stipulations of the Local Rule that was in place. Here's the standard rule for what constitutes a damaged club, which would have been all the difference.

 

[Chunkitgood]

I would speculate that the reason pros are not allowed to replace drivers with cracked faces is to prevent them from using an otherwise conforming driver on which the face has been thinned or weakened, whether from usage or by intentional material, so as to enhance ball speed.
 

There is a testing protocol, but it seems that it could be evaded pretty easily.

[tiderider]

tangential story ... 

 

i'm in college ... gone back after a year of working to take some science classes and get certified to teach those (social studies, originally) ... give a close friend/fraternity brother my tommy armour persimmon driver ... first club i ever bought (uncle gave me a bag of hand-me-downs) ... had it refinished when the epoxy covering bubbled up a bit ... absolutely gorgeous persimmon driver back in the day ... friend was a novice ... 

 

comes back on a late sunday afternoon ... we sit down and are chatting about something ... he says, "hey, we're good friends, right?" ... "yeah, we're good friends ... close friends ... what's up?" ... "i broke your driver" ... "what do you mean?" ... gets up, gets it out of his bag, and hands me the shaft that has on its end the knob of a piece of wood that looks like the iron throne from GoT ... "just shattered ... you can ask jerry" ... 

 

we're still close ... one of my closest friends ... but i ain't loaned him no more clubs ... 

[Shilgy]

On 8/26/2024 at 6:17 PM, Nickb333 said:

That’s the only part I’m having issue with. The rules absolutely allow for a cracked face club to be replaced. BUT, it’s totally subjective. IMO they blew it in this case. 
 

FWIW, I don’t feel bent at all. I’ve learned a lot here. Yet to be written off by some as the rules are stupid guy is insulting. I’m anything but that guy. When I see a rule written poorly or misapplied IMO, I’ll speak out. That’s all. I seek fairness and reasonable interpretation. 
 

Plenty of rules have been updated or flat out changed in my lifetime. I expect to see changes as long as I’m alive. 

Have you not read most of the thread?  At all?  The PGA Tour uses an available Model Local Rule aka MLR G-9 that has more stringent requirements than the standard rule.

 

So your fairness and reasonable was fairly applied by the rules official.

[Shilgy]

On 8/28/2024 at 1:15 PM, PedronNiall said:

 

Think I was reading too much into it based on how some other rules are handled. Guessing what's above is also from a USGA Local Rule. Here's the base rule directly from the most recent RoG, which mentions no requirements regarding differences during competition in the abridged or full version of the rule. 

 

 

 

Regarding Fitzpatrick's driver and any in the future, perhaps there were abuses of the base rule, but clearly a player can be heavily disadvantaged because of the extra stipulations of the Local Rule that was in place. Here's the standard rule for what constitutes a damaged club, which would have been all the difference.

 

Base rule does not apply when there is a more stringent MLR to supersede it.

Edited August 30, 2024 by Shilgy

[nsxguy]

41 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Bas rule does not all ply hen there is a more stringent MLR to supersede it.

 

  

[Shilgy]

25 minutes ago, nsxguy said:

 

  

Thanks fixed!🤯
Though I’m guessing you could tell what as intended.😎

Edited August 30, 2024 by Shilgy

[Nickb333]

1 hour ago, Shilgy said:

Have you not read most of the thread?  At all?  The PGA Tour uses an available Model Local Rule aka MLR G-9 that has more stringent requirements than the standard rule.

 

So your fairness and reasonable was fairly applied by the rules official.

Yes I’ve read most of the thread. We disagree on the ruling.

 

It’s pretty simple really. You and the officials believe players should be stuck with a broken club. I and many other others believe that to be unfair. 
 

No one would bag a cracked club unless they were forced to do so. Ludicrous ruling was ludicrous. I’m willing to bet the verbiage is revised in the next few years. 
 

That said, fare thee well my friend. 

[Shilgy]

38 minutes ago, Nickb333 said:

Yes I’ve read most of the thread. We disagree on the ruling.

 

It’s pretty simple really. You and the officials believe players should be stuck with a broken club. I and many other others believe that to be unfair. 
 

No one would bag a cracked club unless they were forced to do so. Ludicrous ruling was ludicrous. I’m willing to bet the verbiage is revised in the next few years. 
 

That said, fare thee well my friend. 

It’s quite possible the rule could be changed or the tour quits using the MLR.  I posted the same pages ago. 
BUT….the rules official in this case did the only thing he could….which is enforce the current rule.

[Nickb333]

2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

It’s quite possible the rule could be changed or the tour quits using the MLR.  I posted the same pages ago. 
BUT….the rules official in this case did the only thing he could….which is enforce the current rule.

Nope. The current rule is completely subjective. Period.