"GAP" - And Then "Your Naturally Effective Swing" Emerges

[iacas]

GAP (I've seen it called "PGA" too) stands for:

• G - Grip
• A - Alignment
• P - Posture
• (Sometimes there's an "S" for "Stance" as well, but I think A and P cover that. 😄 )

 

While I think that it's important to have your GAP in good shape, I think the bulk of the golf swing (and the difficulty inherent in learning to play good golf) occurs beyond the GAP. I teach or tweak a lot of GAP, even to players earning a living playing golf. But I disagree strongly that, given a good GAP, "his or her own naturally effective swings will emerge, one good enough to strike consistently solid, straight shots." The golfer's natural swing will definitely emerge, but I don't often see players create their own "effective" golf swing that produces "consistently solid, straight shots."

 

I'm not trying to have a discussion over what constitutes "a good GAP" — I'm trying to discuss whether a generally accepted "good GAP" is, as others may think, maybe 90% of building a "consistently solid, straight shot" hitting golf swing. Or 80%. Or maybe you think it's 20%. Or less. Essentially, I'm curious how important to the end result (playing good golf by hitting consistently solid, straight shots) your GAP is.

 

I think we can discuss this respectfully, and I think you don't have to be an instructor to share your own experiences, or those of your buddies.

 

P.S. More clarification on the topic here:

 

Edited September 10, 2024 by iacas
Added Postscript

[GoGoErky]

I like this topic.

 

as I mentioned in another thread the golf swing isn’t very natural in its movements so I don’t think someone with a good GAP is going to make a naturally effective swing and especially one that would lead to solid contact. 
 

Will some people hit it straight? Sure. Wil

it be consistent? To me not consistent enough. Front to back dispersion will be pretty big because contact is going to vary across the face and dynamic loft is normally going to be too high.

 

We have enough examples around various golf forums that show golfers with decent GAP but with misunderstandings of how to transfer pressure or set the wrist get into all kinds of weird swing issues.

 

im looking forward to the replies and hopefully learning from the experts 

[GungHoGolf]

Fun topic!

 

A good player knows/feels where the clubface is at all times, and will find a way to put a good strike on the ball with any GAP (or backswing), as @virtuoso demonstrates in this video:

 

 

So, is an “orthodox” GAP necessary for good golf? No.

 

Will a good, consistent GAP help the vast majority of players? Yes, by giving them a solid starting point from which to swing the club.

 

But just putting a bad golfer in a good GAP and expecting a good shot - nope. It’s maybe 10% of what a good golf swing is made of.

Edited September 9, 2024 by GungHoGolf

[virtuoso]

Some of my best moves right there.

[GungHoGolf]

3 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Some of my best moves right there.

I agree, but I’d like you to follow it up with even crazier moves/grips/postures. Maybe throw in a Happy Gilmore if you’re feelin’ extra-spicy.

Edited September 9, 2024 by GungHoGolf

[virtuoso]

Just now, GungHoGolf said:

I agree, but I’d like you to follow it up with even crazier moves/grips/postures. Maybe throw in a Happy Gilmore if you’re feelin’ extra-spicy.

Clearly you missed my "Sphinx Samurai" in one of the legendary R2L threads.

[GungHoGolf]

Just now, virtuoso said:

Clearly you missed my "Sphinx Samurai" in one of the legendary R2L threads.

I had to dig so far to find that. But totally worth it:

 

 

[Ty_Webb]

Interesting topic. There are some people who just look like they’re going to hit good shots when you see them set up to the ball. Sometimes they do too but sometimes they don’t. I think suggesting that it is purely about grip alignment posture is fairly insulting to all the work that a lot of people have put in to making it look that easy. 
 

Add to that the extremes of grips that some pros have. Think Bryson vs Azinger. Zero knuckles vs four knuckles on left hand and they both get it done. Give a beginner or even a seasoned amateur a perfect GAP and they wouldn’t be able to sniff Bryson’s wake. 

[MonteScheinblum]

Setup is important, but there is no standard for everyone and you can have a crappy setup and build a great swing.  See Bradley, the guy at the us am this year, moe Norman, etc.

However, if you give someone a “perfect” setup and no other direction, it is unlikely they will build anything but misery.

 

A good setup for the INDIVIDUAL makes a good swing easier to perform, but by no means assures a good swing.  There are so many physical variabilities.  There is no standard grip or setup that is universal.  Dr. Wright proved it, even down to stance width.  Lower core need stronger grip, upper need weaker, etc.

 

Is it easier to achieve wealth if you start with wealth or a major investor, of course, but you need a proper understanding of how to build wealth.

 

It’s why most lottery winners go broke.

 

If you gave me twin brothers with a crappy setup and said one you can only teach setup and nothing else and the other you can’t change his setup, but you can teach him a solid swing to over come the setup……brother number 2 destroys number 1.

 

The reason I know this is I have hacks with great setups on my lesson tee often and I have people with horrendous setups who play some damn good golf.

[golferdude54]

I remember reading George Knudson's Natural Golf Swing book and he emphasized a proper GAP and proper finish, basically a good P1 and P10. He thought if both positions were correct and balanced, the rest of the swing must've been correct as well.

 

But that was published almost 40 years ago and a lot has developed since then. Now he'd probably add the importance of P4 (top of backswing) and P7 (impact) if he were still alive. Having said that, just focusing on P1 expecting the rest of the swing to work itself out is pure madness!

[golferdude54]

Also, regarding what the ideal GAP is for other people trying to figure it out. It's best to use given's and spectrum's.

 

For posture, there are a few given's that applies to every club in the bag:

1. Front of shoulders will always be in front of toes

2. Knees are always bent but never bend past toes

3. Butt will always be behind heels

4. Elbows are never locked

 

This is just an example but applying in that fashion I did will make it less subjective and help other players find their answers.

 

[Chunkitgood]

I will be cynical and maybe worse and observe that the preoccupation some teachers show to a set of “static fundamentals” may reflect their inability to teach the moving parts of the swing.  Empirically it appears there are very good golfers with very different static fundamentals.

 

On the other hand my own experience is that different postures and grips and alignments will tend to produce different patterns in the use of the arms.

 

I do not find different setups produce different patterns in body motion, however, and have concluded that body motion is fairly consistent among good players, being the true fundamentals, with varying posture, grip, and alignment combinations correlating with different arm motions.

 

Thus I have concluded the major flaw in golf tuition is failure to teach body motion first.  If body motion were taught first, speed would be taught, so that when arm motion is learned successful shots can be made with the club face delofted.  If one were to teach proper delofting descending arm and hand motion (if such were possible at all) without the requisite body motion and accompanying speed, the student will not be successful in achieving lift, and will likely perforce turn to a loft adding swing.

[PedronNiall]

A proper setup will lead to far more consistent results in most cases, and even it isn't something most get naturally, but agreed that it isn't the end of the story. The best setup in the world won't stop people from contorting themselves in every way imaginable that will ensure they don't get to a good position at the top and can do wild and crazy things on the way down that have to be seen to be believed. 

 

 

 

 

 

Mr Palmer was not ready for what the masses can do with "swing your swing."

 

The swing can be pared down to a good grip, a proper stance--which covers both alignment and posture--and a simple turn back & through, but the devil is building a palatial mansion in the details that rest within those few items. 

[TheDeanAbides]

Great topic. Hopefully this will be a useful discussion where we can all learn something. 

 

My thoughts are similar to many others here. A good relatively neutral set-up gives the best opportunity to produce an effecitve swing, but it doesn't create one. Like so many things, creating an ideal environment means there's a better chance that the player doesn't need compensations down the line, but if that player has a poor understanding of how to get the job done they'll still screw it up. 

 

I'd take a poor set-up and good understanding of how to pivot and use the arms/hand unit over a picture perfect set-up and the club whipped inside with rolling forearms followed by a lift and then spinny lunge at the ball.

[SheriffBooth]

Please post on-topic or don't post.  Threads been cleaned up.  Thanks!

[Ty_Webb]

19 hours ago, iacas said:

Except for a basic shared understanding, I'm not trying to have a discussion over what constitutes "a good GAP" — I'm trying to discuss whether a generally accepted "good GAP" is, as others seems to say, maybe 90% of building a "consistently solid, straight shot" hitting golf swing. Or 80%. Or maybe you think it's 20%. Or less.

 

I'm not a coach, so take this for what it's worth. Looking at the PGA Tour, which I think is a reasonable microcosm of "successful golf swings", I'd think somewhere in the 95% of people look pretty good in their set up. If you want to call that textbook so be it. That's not to get so far into it as the grip - there's way more range of grips out there. Purely talking about posture. So I don't think it's necessary to have a good posture to be able to play well, but it certainly seems to help. There are for sure aspects of posture that enable the correct movements - like if you tilt forwards from your waist instead of your hips, it seems like it would be a lot harder to turn your hips and shoulders in sync with each other.

 

For the grip, I think it is important that your grip matches the rest of your swing. I mentioned Bryson and Azinger before. If Bryson tried to play with Azinger's grip, I'm sure he could probably manage something pretty functional given a little time to practice it (which might be only five minutes), but I don't for a second imagine he'd be as good as he is with his comically weak grip. 

 

All that said, it's really hard for me to pinpoint a percentage that GAP applies to the whole deal. If you say 80% is GAP, that's putting only 20% on the actual swing itself, which I think has to be more important than GAP. On the other hand, if you say 20% is GAP, having a poor GAP is going to make it harder to make an effective swing and I think that's important. 

 

Let's put it this way then - I'd say it's something like 5% alignment, 15% grip, 15% posture, and 65% the actual swing. But if you're going to maximize your potential, then ideally you would have 100% correct (or at least functional).

[tthomasgolfer605]

Putting golfers into the correct setup for THEM is what's important. I view aim as the most important thing. I'm not referring to feet alignment. The rest is individual. If someone was hooking the ball and had an extra strong grip, the first step would be to weaken it at least until the ball flight straightens out, then work on other things.  If someone was hitting a short iron with a driver width stance and striking it badly, you would of course have them narrow it up. Ball position will be individual as well. There's no one size fits all. 

Edited September 10, 2024 by tthomasgolfer605

[nosil]

16 hours ago, GungHoGolf said:

 

A good player knows/feels where the clubface is at all times, and will find a way to put a good strike on the ball with any GAP (or backswing

 

Maybe I am not what you consider a good player; play to about a 7, but I cannot feel the clubhead, clubface, shaft load/unload, etc. during the swing. I have tried lots of combinations but I feel nothing.   Finding a way to hit the ball is simply what the brain naturally does; it doesn’t mean it will cause you to hit it well.  

 

 the answer to @iacasquesrion from a player would be 30%.  GAP is just a starting point that has a significant amount of tolerances.  The golf swing isn’t static and a lot can go wrong from the “perfect” static GAP.     

[Nard_S]

GAP to me is holding good dynamic balance in relation to the geometry related to the club being used. The grip is about both hands working together and controlling the COM of club and face control.

[me05501]

I don't know how critical the GAP elements are on their own but it's probably at least 50% of the success of a swing and maybe as high as 70% depending on the player.

 

I think if you add the takeaway you probably can determine as much as 85% of the success of any shot. 

 

Even if a player gets all those things right he can still overswing, lose balance, stand up out of the shot, do a reverse weight shift, etc. However, if he started off aimed at his target with reasonable posture and a sound grip he can probably still play serviceable golf. 

 

In fact I'd put most of the guys I play with in the category of getting the 85% correct while still showing some kind of flaw in the remaining 15%. They could be more consistent or more efficient but they can still play bogey golf or better. 

 

 

[iacas]

I'll clarify one thing.

 

This topic isn't "if you put Rory McIlroy in a really weak grip, aim him 30° right, and make him swing from Keegan Bradley's stance" would it negatively affect him? Of course it would. 😀

 

The topic or question IS "if you give someone a good GAP, do they naturally develop a good golf swing that hits consistently solid, straight shots?

[Zitlow]

14 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

I will be cynical and maybe worse and observe that the preoccupation some teachers show to a set of “static fundamentals” may reflect their inability to teach the moving parts of the swing.  Empirically it appears there are very good golfers with very different static fundamentals.

 

On the other hand my own experience is that different postures and grips and alignments will tend to produce different patterns in the use of the arms.

 

I do not find different setups produce different patterns in body motion, however, and have concluded that body motion is fairly consistent among good players, being the true fundamentals, with varying posture, grip, and alignment combinations correlating with different arm motions.

 

Thus I have concluded the major flaw in golf tuition is failure to teach body motion first.  If body motion were taught first, speed would be taught, so that when arm motion is learned successful shots can be made with the club face delofted.  If one were to teach proper delofting descending arm and hand motion (if such were possible at all) without the requisite body motion and accompanying speed, the student will not be successful in achieving lift, and will likely perforce turn to a loft adding swing.

 

I'm not against instruction, I'm against people wasting their time and money on bad instruction. Most instructors don't teach people how to use the design of their anatomy (joints. ligaments, muscles and soft tissue) to create an athletic motion. 

 

I went down many rabbit holes for several years listening to bad advice about the swing from so called teachers who taught swing gimmicks instead of a dynamic athletic motion. 

 

I eventually found out that I didn't need a bunch of consciously moving parts to create momentum and inertia which do most of the work.

 

 

Edited September 10, 2024 by Zitlow

[Ty_Webb]

31 minutes ago, iacas said:

I'll clarify one thing.

 

This topic isn't "if you put Rory McIlroy in a really weak grip, aim him 30° right, and make him swing from Keegan Bradley's stance" would it negatively affect him? Of course it would. 😀

 

The topic or question IS "if you give someone a good GAP, do they naturally develop a good golf swing that hits consistently solid, straight shots?

 

Ah, yeah no. Not a chance. I don't think a golf swing is a particularly natural thing. People who look like they have a smooth natural swing have put a heck of a lot of time into that.

[kiawah]

Ha! I always referred to it as GASP - Grip, Alignment, Stance, Posture. Good post OP

[kowalgolf]

Impossible UNLESS said person has some TALENT or GIFT of clubhead awareness. I watched an 80 yr. old two winters ago hit draws and fades on demand with a left arm parallel swing and I just shook my head. I've been playing 63 yrs. with decent hand and eye coordination and I still can't do it. Remember the topic and strike consistently straight shots. Bob Brue's clinic on you tube and what Virtuoso has demonstrated is your minds eye understanding what you are trying to do with the clubhead to deliver said shot. What that is I don't know. Gift or talent???

[TheDeanAbides]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

I'll clarify one thing.

 

This topic isn't "if you put Rory McIlroy in a really weak grip, aim him 30° right, and make him swing from Keegan Bradley's stance" would it negatively affect him? Of course it would. 😀

 

The topic or question IS "if you give someone a good GAP, do they naturally develop a good golf swing that hits consistently solid, straight shots?

That's simple then. No. 

[mshills]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

I'll clarify one thing.

 

This topic isn't "if you put Rory McIlroy in a really weak grip, aim him 30° right, and make him swing from Keegan Bradley's stance" would it negatively affect him? Of course it would. 😀

 

The topic or question IS "if you give someone a good GAP, do they naturally develop a good golf swing that hits consistently solid, straight shots?

NO!  😁

 

No way. Having a high GPA is helpful, but your question is very specific, and no, a good golf swing does not manifest itself from simply having a good fundamental starting point. There is a whole lot more that’s required to build a fundamentally solid and repeatable swing. 
 

What I do find helpful is GPA is the only thing I will try to address during play if my play goes south. Anything else needs to be worked on elsewhere, but I can certainly correct those three items on-course. 
 

Maybe that’s it — good GPA does not necessarily produce a good swing, but a small change, or probably more accurate to say inconsistency in GPA can cause problems. 

[MonteScheinblum]

22 minutes ago, mshills said:

NO!  😁

 

No way. Having a high GPA is helpful, but your question is very specific, and no, a good golf swing does not manifest itself from simply having a good fundamental starting point. There is a whole lot more that’s required to build a fundamentally solid and repeatable swing. 
 

What I do find helpful is GPA is the only thing I will try to address during play if my play goes south. Anything else needs to be worked on elsewhere, but I can certainly correct those three items on-course. 
 

Maybe that’s it — good GPA does not necessarily produce a good swing, but a small change, or probably more accurate to say inconsistency in GPA can cause problems. 

And your chances of getting into a good college goes way down.

[Ty_Webb]

4 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

And your chances of getting into a good college goes way down.

 

Your GPA (Grip Posture Alignment) might help, but your SAT (Swing And Target) will cover the rest of it

[virtuoso]

6 hours ago, iacas said:

IThe topic or question IS "if you give someone a good GAP, do they naturally develop a good golf swing that hits consistently solid, straight shots?

 

I believe the precise language included the word "emerge"........which seems to make it even more absurd.