"GAP" - And Then "Your Naturally Effective Swing" Emerges

[GoGoErky]

9 minutes ago, Golfonthemind said:

Ok then how about this scenario? 
 

You take 100 high school aged kids and randomly split them into two groups with instructors for both groups. Group As instructors goal is to instill the best GAP possible but are not allowed to veer from that at all other than “ set up correctly like we discussed and then try and hit the ball at the target” 

 

Group B instructors are not allowed to discuss anything related to GAP but can provide instruction on the most optimal way to move the club and body for each player. 
 

After a year which group is better ? If that’s what you mean by “emerge naturally “ honestly would put my money on Group A. 

Once again off topic. The topic is does a good GAP  alllow “his or her own naturally effectiveswings will emerge, one good enough to strikeconsistently solid, straight shots." 
 

you either agree that it does or it doesn’t. It’s not about teaching or not teaching any part of the swing.

[Golfonthemind]

7 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Once again off topic. The topic is does a good GAP  alllow “his or her own naturally effectiveswings will emerge, one good enough to strikeconsistently solid, straight shots." 
 

you either agree that it does or it doesn’t. It’s not about teaching or not teaching any part of the swing.

How in the world is that off topic? Taking a group of beginners only giving them a good GAP and then seeing how “ solid and straight” there shots are is as close to a real world example of answering that question as possible. 
 

If all that is allowed to be replied is yes or no then close this down and make it a poll. 

[GoGoErky]

Just now, Golfonthemind said:

How in the world is that off topic? Taking a group of beginners only giving them a good GAP and then seeing how “ solid and straight” there shots are is as close to a real world example of answering that question as possible. 
 

If all that is allowed to be replied is yes or no then close this down and make it a poll. 

Because the topic is purely about the effect of GAP and whether it causes one’s natural swing to emerge and produce solid and straight shots.

 

what you say about seeing how beginners swing with a good gap

and nothing else is on topic, it’s the second part of your post that’s off topic.

 

The OP explained this to you in this post

 

Yes it’s very specific to the bolded part. The intent of the thread was very specific about GAP and natural swing emerging based on a post made in another thread. The OP is looking to see what people think and if there were any members who think that a natural swing will emerge that produces the straight ball flights.

 

 

[Ty_Webb]

29 minutes ago, Golfonthemind said:

Ok then how about this scenario? 
 

You take 100 high school aged kids and randomly split them into two groups with instructors for both groups. Group As instructors goal is to instill the best GAP possible but are not allowed to veer from that at all other than “ set up correctly like we discussed and then try and hit the ball at the target” 

 

Group B instructors are not allowed to discuss anything related to GAP but can provide instruction on the most optimal way to move the club and body for each player. 
 

After a year which group is better ? If that’s what you mean by “emerge naturally “ honestly would put my money on Group A. 

 

Group B instructors would be able to help people understand why they are hitting bad shots, while group A wouldn't. So if they're hitting it left or right or wherever (I suspect most people in this instance would have a left path and a right face (assuming righties) and you'd have no way to help them figure that out. I don't see how group A is ever going to just coalesce into a straight swing or a good face to path relationship. A good instructor would on the other hand be able to work with whatever GAP the group B kids have and get them hitting it roughly where they want to. I don't think either group would wind up particularly good, but I think B would be more functional than A. A good GAP just isn't enough to play well. You have to help organize the movements to make the results usable. 

[TheDeanAbides]

1 minute ago, GoGoErky said:

Because the topic is purely about the effect of GAP and whether it causes one’s natural swing to emerge and produce solid and straight shots.

 

what you say about seeing how beginners swing with a good gap

and nothing else is on topic, it’s the second part of your post that’s off topic.

 

The OP explained this to you in this post

 

Yes it’s very specific to the bolded part. The intent of the thread was very specific about GAP and natural swing emerging based on a post made in another thread. The OP is looking to see what people think and if there were any members who think that a natural swing will emerge that produces the straight ball flights.

 

 

I think it's clear what camp the above poster is in...

[TheDeanAbides]

1 minute ago, Ty_Webb said:

 

Group B instructors would be able to help people understand why they are hitting bad shots, while group A wouldn't. So if they're hitting it left or right or wherever (I suspect most people in this instance would have a left path and a right face (assuming righties) and you'd have no way to help them figure that out. I don't see how group A is ever going to just coalesce into a straight swing or a good face to path relationship. A good instructor would on the other hand be able to work with whatever GAP the group B kids have and get them hitting it roughly where they want to. I don't think either group would wind up particularly good, but I think B would be more functional than A. A good GAP just isn't enough to play well. You have to help organize the movements to make the results usable. 

Yep. A good GAP doesn't magically create a good pivot or arm swing.

[GoGoErky]

1 minute ago, TheDeanAbides said:

I think it's clear what camp the above poster is in...

Agree

[Golfonthemind]

1 hour ago, GoGoErky said:

Because the topic is purely about the effect of GAP and whether it causes one’s natural swing to emerge and produce solid and straight shots.

 

what you say about seeing how beginners swing with a good gap

and nothing else is on topic, it’s the second part of your post that’s off topic.

 

The OP explained this to you in this post

 

Yes it’s very specific to the bolded part. The intent of the thread was very specific about GAP and natural swing emerging based on a post made in another thread. The OP is looking to see what people think and if there were any members who think that a natural swing will emerge that produces the straight ball flights.

 

 

Ok truly hoping this is on topic enough for you. I change my stance for the sake of having an open and fun discussion with all. 
 

My new position : if you took 100 teenagers who had never held a club before and forced them into a good GAP and then had them hit balls 3 times at a week and didn’t allow any other discussion here’s what I think would happen: 

 

A small subset of the athletically gifted players forced into a good GAP would end up hitting very solid straight shots. Some would be absolutely awful and some would be in between. So the answer can be yes. 

[Nels55]

2 hours ago, Golfonthemind said:

Ok then how about this scenario? 
 

You take 100 high school aged kids and randomly split them into two groups with instructors for both groups. Group As instructors goal is to instill the best GAP possible but are not allowed to veer from that at all other than “ set up correctly like we discussed and then try and hit the ball at the target” 

 

Group B instructors are not allowed to discuss anything related to GAP but can provide instruction on the most optimal way to move the club and body for each player. 
 

After a year which group is better ? If that’s what you mean by “emerge naturally “ honestly would put my money on Group A. 

Interesting.  I think that it would be really difficult to teach the swing without changing the students setup.  That said I think that group B would actually be more likely to do better.  

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, Golfonthemind said:

Ok truly hoping this is on topic enough for you. I change my stance for the sake of having an open and fun discussion with all. 
 

My new position : if you took 100 teenagers who had never held a club before and forced them into a good GAP and then had them hit balls 3 times at a week and didn’t allow any other discussion here’s what I think would happen: 

 

A small subset of the athletically gifted players forced into a good GAP would end up hitting very solid straight shots. Some would be absolutely awful and some would be in between. So the answer can be yes. 

So you agree that a natural swing won’t emerge and that the athletically gifted ones who end up hitting it straight are doing by learning the dynamic movement of the golf swing over time

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

So you agree that a natural swing won’t emerge and that the athletically gifted ones who end up hitting it straight are doing by learning the dynamic movement of the golf swing over time

 

The original text I quoted didn't say "immediately" or really give a time frame of course. That'd be silly. 😄 

 

I still don't think many at all will hit "consistently solid, straight shots" given a good GAP, let alone enough to make that your instructional philosophy. 😄 

[GoGoErky]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

The original text I quoted didn't say "immediately" or really give a time frame of course. That'd be silly. 😄 

 

I still don't think many at all will hit "consistently solid, straight shots" given a good GAP, let alone enough to make that your instructional philosophy. 😄 

I agree, I think the percentage is maybe 1% possibly less.

 

i definitely would leave a lesson early or not come back if that was the instructors philosophy 

[SheriffBooth]

19 hours ago, Shilgy said:

For you young guys…Bruce Lietzke was probably the best part time player ever. He hit this little fade on every single shot.  Pin tucked left? No problem he’d still hit the cut.

And…he took more time off the game than perhaps any really good player. 
 As I heard the story it was that at the end of a season Lietzke told his caddie see ya in January…..and that he would touch the clubs in the intervening months.  Caddie didn’t believe him so he put a banana under his driver headcover.  
 

AND revealed the rotten stinky mess in January.🤯
 

EDITED TO ADD TO STAY ON TOPIC

 

He had a very good GAP.

 

You might argue that Lietzke is proof that unique GAP can be fine if you compensate in other ways.  Strong grip, little knee bend, rounded back.  Then he dragged the club inside and came a little over the top.  But he squared the club face consistently and repeated the move like a robot.

 

Look at this thing:

 

 

The Hack Motion app would overheat and explode if you uploaded that.

Edited September 13, 2024 by SheriffBooth

[MonteScheinblum]

3 hours ago, SheriffBooth said:

 

You might argue that Lietzke is proof that unique GAP can be fine if you compensate in other ways.  Strong grip, little knee bend, rounded back.  Then he dragged the club inside and came a little over the top.  But he squared the club face consistently and repeated the move like a robot.

 

Look at this thing:

 

 

The Hack Motion app would overheat and explode if you uploaded that.

This is exactly right.  

[bladehunter]

21 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Once again off topic. The topic is does a good GAP  alllow “his or her own naturally effectiveswings will emerge, one good enough to strikeconsistently solid, straight shots." 
 

you either agree that it does or it doesn’t. It’s not about teaching or not teaching any part of the swing.

The answer is it is person dependent.  We’ve all seen the guy who has weekly lessons , where a good gap is taught , and he can’t play a lick.  Some folks can’t drive cars.  And we teach everyone  how.  Spacial awareness is not equal in all. 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, bladehunter said:

The answer is it is person dependent.  We’ve all seen the guy who has weekly lessons , where a good gap is taught , and he can’t play a lick.  Some folks can’t drive cars.  And we teach everyone  how.  Spacial awareness is not equal in all. 

 

Of course it's "person dependent," to some extent, but I think most would say that some really high % of people will not see a swing "naturally emerge" that hits "consistently solid, straight shots" after being taught only a good GAP.

And that's what the topic seeks to survey from people. I figured the results would be somewhat lopsided, but… that's part of it.

[bladehunter]

4 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Of course it's "person dependent," to some extent, but I think most would say that some really high % of people will not see a swing "naturally emerge" that hits "consistently solid, straight shots" after being taught only a good GAP.

And that's what the topic seeks to survey from people. I figured the results would be somewhat lopsided, but… that's part of it.

I gotcha.  I agree.     I think a lot of people think or wish it were true.  Otherwise they’d give up trying.  

[ShowMe]

True Story.  I had been golfing with a friend for several years straight.  He had a very weak grip with an over the top move.  As you might guess he hit weak slices and would normally shoot in the mid 90s.  Had never broken 85.  
 

One day last year he finally agreed to listen to a suggestion (he’s very stubborn).  I showed him how to strengthen his grip and then told him to try and hit the ball two dimples to the inside.  Boom!  Straight and 20 yards longer.  He shot a 78 that day.  By far his lowest score ever.  He couldn’t get over how much better he was playing.  
 

So yes, changing an element of GAP for the better can dramatically improve somebody’s game.  I’ve seen it live and in person.  
 

The sad part of the story?   For various reasons I didn’t get to play with him again for about 6 months.  He had reverted back to his old grip and was shooting in the mid 90s again.  I asked him why.  He said because what I showed him didn’t “feel” right.  I tried to explain that was because he had been swinging the same way for 30 years and it would take awhile for the new stuff to feel right, but it didn’t sink in.  Like I said, he’s stubborn.  C’est la vie.  

[Shilgy]

6 hours ago, ShowMe said:

True Story.  I had been golfing with a friend for several years straight.  He had a very weak grip with an over the top move.  As you might guess he hit weak slices and would normally shoot in the mid 90s.  Had never broken 85.  
 

One day last year he finally agreed to listen to a suggestion (he’s very stubborn).  I showed him how to strengthen his grip and then told him to try and hit the ball two dimples to the inside.  Boom!  Straight and 20 yards longer.  He shot a 78 that day.  By far his lowest score ever.  He couldn’t get over how much better he was playing.  
 

So yes, changing an element of GAP for the better can dramatically improve somebody’s game.  I’ve seen it live and in person.  
 

The sad part of the story?   For various reasons I didn’t get to play with him again for about 6 months.  He had reverted back to his old grip and was shooting in the mid 90s again.  I asked him why.  He said because what I showed him didn’t “feel” right.  I tried to explain that was because he had been swinging the same way for 30 years and it would take awhile for the new stuff to feel right, but it didn’t sink in.  Like I said, he’s stubborn.  C’est la vie.  

Well, the easy suggestion is to keep him on speed dial.  Let him build his handicap and then get him for a partner.  One day grip fix and win it all!🤔

[Canada8888]

On 9/9/2024 at 3:39 PM, iacas said:

GAP (I've seen it called "PGA" too) stands for:

• G - Grip
• A - Alignment
• P - Posture
• (Sometimes there's an "S" for "Stance" as well, but I think A and P cover that. 😄 )

 

While I think that it's important to have your GAP in good shape, I think the bulk of the golf swing (and the difficulty inherent in learning to play good golf) occurs beyond the GAP. I teach or tweak a lot of GAP, even to players earning a living playing golf. But I disagree strongly that, given a good GAP, "his or her own naturally effective swings will emerge, one good enough to strike consistently solid, straight shots." The golfer's natural swing will definitely emerge, but I don't often see players create their own "effective" golf swing that produces "consistently solid, straight shots."

 

I'm not trying to have a discussion over what constitutes "a good GAP" — I'm trying to discuss whether a generally accepted "good GAP" is, as others may think, maybe 90% of building a "consistently solid, straight shot" hitting golf swing. Or 80%. Or maybe you think it's 20%. Or less. Essentially, I'm curious how important to the end result (playing good golf by hitting consistently solid, straight shots) your GAP is.

 

I think we can discuss this respectfully, and I think you don't have to be an instructor to share your own experiences, or those of your buddies.

 

P.S. More clarification on the topic here:

 

 

If it is just the GAO then no.

 

But if you add a demo of a prefect finishing position in balance and get them to practice that also then yes becomes very possible. 

 

New golfers need to understand where to start and also what the end goal is.

 

Bottom line to this "Natural Golf" approach is that impact will be just a spot on the way to a perfect balanced finish from a solid GAP start.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Canada8888 said:

If it is just the GAO then no.

 

But if you add a demo of a prefect finishing position in balance and get them to practice that also then yes becomes very possible. 

 

New golfers need to understand where to start and also what the end goal is.

 

Bottom line to this "Natural Golf" approach is that impact will be just a spot on the way to a perfect balanced finish from a solid GAP start.

 

Thanks for the post. As you may have seen, the original quote isn't mine.

 

I think showing golfers not only the start but the finish is going to help them more than showing them only where to start, but I still think, personally, that 95% (or more) of the work is done in the middle. You've converted our golfer from an open-faced sandwich to a normal, two-pieces-of-bread sandwich, but the meat (or peanut butter and jelly, or whatever) is still where the bulk of it occurs.

 

IMO, of course.

[NoTalentLefty]

I read this and was intrigued by the simplicity of  GAP. While I believe that there is more to a swing, decided to work on my grip using hogan’s model especially on the lower hand. Well shot a 75 today on a cow pasture course that I love. Was it the detail of the placement of the hands that caused the score? It helped. The thought gave me focus. 

Edited September 19, 2024 by NoTalentLefty

[iacas]

23 minutes ago, NoTalentLefty said:

I read this and was intrigued by the simplicity of  GAP. While I believe that there is more to a swing, decided to work on my grip using hogan’s model especially on the lower hand. Well shot a 75 today on a cow pasture course that I love. Was it the detail of the placement of the hands that caused the score? It helped. The thought gave me focus. 

 

Nobody's said GAP isn't important. The opposite is more accurate:

 

On 9/9/2024 at 3:39 PM, iacas said:

While I think that it's important to have your GAP in good shape, I think the bulk of the golf swing (and the difficulty inherent in learning to play good golf) occurs beyond the GAP. I teach or tweak a lot of GAP, even to players earning a living playing golf. But I disagree strongly that, given a good GAP, "his or her own naturally effective swings will emerge, one good enough to strike consistently solid, straight shots."

 

That's the nature of the conversation.

 

I'm glad you played well, though. 😄 

[mshills]

I guess I’m confused by the narrow scope of the topic.

 

 Who actually made the claim that a good golf swing “naturally evolves” for a player starting with a good GAP?

 

 If that was the case, golf would be the easiest game ever, and we know that is not true. 
 

Anyone on the planet can achieve a good or perfect GAP, and we know full well that does not apply to playing the game. 
 

So, what gives?

[iacas]

9 minutes ago, mshills said:

I guess I’m confused by the narrow scope of the topic. Who actually made the claim that a good golf swing “naturally evolves” for a player starting with a good GAP?

 

Oh, I think someone did somewhere a time or two (or ten).

 

15 minutes ago, mshills said:

If that was the case, golf would be the easiest game ever, and we know that is not true.

 

Yeah, I kinda agree.

 

15 minutes ago, mshills said:

Anyone on the planet can achieve a good or perfect GAP, and we know full well that does not apply to playing the game.

 

Yeah.

[NoTalentLefty]

On 9/18/2024 at 8:37 PM, iacas said:

 

Nobody's said GAP isn't important. The opposite is more accurate:

 

 

That's the nature of the conversation.

 

I'm glad you played well, though. 😄 

I never said it wasn’t important or accused anyone of that. It was strictly a observation.

[golftech]

On 9/9/2024 at 7:04 PM, golferdude54 said:

I remember reading George Knudson's Natural Golf Swing book and he emphasized a proper GAP and proper finish, basically a good P1 and P10. He thought if both positions were correct and balanced, the rest of the swing must've been correct as well.

 

But that was published almost 40 years ago and a lot has developed since then. Now he'd probably add the importance of P4 (top of backswing) and P7 (impact) if he were still alive. Having said that, just focusing on P1 expecting the rest of the swing to work itself out is pure madness!

Knudson also stressed proper footwork, pivot and arm motion.