Lead arm adduction angle increase in backswing.

[MannJ]

I was watching an AMG video on the backswing yesterday and they mentioned the adduction angle increasing in the backswing. 
I wanted to throw this out there to see if I am understanding correctly, and if so I am wondering if people intentionally make this movement , or have practiced it. 
So in takeaway there is a bit more arm movement than shoulder movement, drawing the lead arm more across the body. After the initial takeaway the shoulders are turning more away from the ball but the lead arm hangs on the target line a bit longer, increasing the lead arm distance angle from the chest. Then late in the backswing the hands close that gap a bit. 
Sound correct?

[iacas]

It's only very early in the backswing, because the left shoulder protracts slightly. Also notice how GEARS measures it - the three spots of the angle are the spine (at the shoulders), the lead shoulder, and the lead elbow.

 

Maybe I'll record a thing in GEARS later to show this, but basically:

• Start at 80° at P1
• Between P1 and P2, increase to 86°
• By P4, get down to about 60°.

Pretty common pattern there among Tour players.

[Zitlow]

You're overthinking it. The shoulders, arms, hands and club go along for the ride the first three feet of the swing which sets the stage for the rest of the swing. 

 

 

 

[MannJ]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

It's only very early in the backswing, because the left shoulder protracts slightly. Also notice how GEARS measures it - the three spots of the angle are the spine (at the shoulders), the lead shoulder, and the lead elbow.

 

Maybe I'll record a thing in GEARS later to show this, but basically:

• Start at 80° at P1
• Between P1 and P2, increase to 86°
• By P4, get down to about 60°.

Pretty common pattern there among Tour players.

Thanks! 
I was having trouble finding this spelled out other than in the video I watched. My misunderstanding of this has ingrained a movement that leaves my hands too deep at the top of the swing.

[iacas]

Just now, MannJ said:

Thanks! 
I was having trouble finding this spelled out other than in the video I watched. My misunderstanding of this has ingrained a movement that leaves my hands too deep at the top of the swing.

 

I see that a LOT. Look at how much and in what dimension your trail elbow bends/moves.

[Jeselnik]

18 hours ago, MannJ said:

Thanks! 
I was having trouble finding this spelled out other than in the video I watched. My misunderstanding of this has ingrained a movement that leaves my hands too deep at the top of the swing.

If that was the  AMG  bones version  it was  good info.  Did they tell you how to manage the arms?

 

JNIK

 

Edited September 12, 2024 by Jeselnik

[MannJ]

5 hours ago, Jeselnik said:

If that was the  AMG  bones version  it was  good info.  Did they tell you how to manage the arms?

 

JNIK

 

 

[MannJ]

5 hours ago, Jeselnik said:

If that was the  AMG  bones version  it was  good info.  Did they tell you how to manage the arms?

 

JNIK

 

That was the video. They give a couple of drills at the end but the basic idea was maintaining some space between the lead arm and chest during backswing. 
It’s a lot easier said than done. 
I have the additional problem of laying the club off flat in the backswing, which seems to want to lead my arms in a direction that follows the club, behind me. 

[Zitlow]

1 hour ago, MannJ said:

That was the video. They give a couple of drills at the end but the basic idea was maintaining some space between the lead arm and chest during backswing. 
It’s a lot easier said than done. 
I have the additional problem of laying the club off flat in the backswing, which seems to want to lead my arms in a direction that follows the club, behind me. 

 

 

"They give a couple of drills at the end but the basic idea was maintaining some space between the lead arm and chest during backswing."

 

Think about all the variables you introduce by maintaining space between the lead arm and chest. How much space? Do you maintain the same amount of space through out the swing?

 

I was taught by Austin and Dunaway that the body swings the arms not vice versa.  They set the left arm on the chest with a pec grab. 

 

 

Here's what it looks like. He does a pec grab at address, his left arm doesn't come off his chest until late in the follow through. 

 

 

 

[iacas]

Definitely move your lead arm way across your chest if you want to get stuck (trail elbow too far around your body).

 

Definitely move your lead arm across your chest if you want to do something very few Tour players do. It’s not like we don’t have measurements for this stuff. /s

 

Or, better yet, maintain some width (and space) so your trail elbow doesn’t have much of a chance to get “behind” you.

[GoGoErky]

53 minutes ago, iacas said:

Definitely move your lead arm way across your chest if you want to get stuck (trail elbow too far around your body).

 

Definitely move your lead arm across your chest if you want to do something very few Tour players do. It’s not like we don’t have measurements for this stuff. /s

 

Or, better yet, maintain some width (and space) so your trail elbow doesn’t have much of a chance to get “behind” you.

Right. AMG has videos showing the arm coming off the chest early.

 

Saw something the other day that said something like “it was thought people didn’t know anything because they and to travel to libraries to read, now we have access at our fingertips, yet nothing has changed”

 

 

[MonteScheinblum]

It’s been measured, the range of how much lead arm addiction that actually happens in the backswing is very small.  As to those who say it should stay adducted until the follow through.

 

You have two choices.

 

1.  The person who said this is posting drivel.

2.  These two players have bad swings.

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C_qaamWPYub/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[LongNwrong27]

2 hours ago, Zitlow said:

 

 

"They give a couple of drills at the end but the basic idea was maintaining some space between the lead arm and chest during backswing."

 

Think about all the variables you introduce by maintaining space between the lead arm and chest. How much space? Do you maintain the same amount of space through out the swing?

 

I was taught by Austin and Dunaway that the body swings the arms not vice versa.  They set the left arm on the chest with a pec grab. 

 

 

Here's what it looks like. He does a pec grab at address, his left arm doesn't come off his chest until late in the follow through. 

 

 

 

Look at the position of his lead arm. He is absolutely not letting it get across the chest , as the rest of the folks in the thread are talking about 

[Jeselnik]

I didn’t hear “way across the chest”, maybe because I remember the figure 7 from the DVD.  I heard PP#4, which isn’t a point.  The good news is you don’t have to worry about it after you get some arm structure and understand the swivels.…………FORE !!!

 

JNIK

Edited September 12, 2024 by Jeselnik

[iacas]

1 hour ago, doctor220 said:

Look at the position of his lead arm. He is absolutely not letting it get across the chest , as the rest of the folks in the thread are talking about 

 

[LongNwrong27]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

Ya true there right elbow is behind with left arm puller across. I meant more so on the talking drill part 

Edited September 13, 2024 by doctor220

[Jeselnik]

 

 

 

 

JNIK

Edited September 13, 2024 by Jeselnik

[iacas]

5 hours ago, Jeselnik said:

 

 

 

 

 

Yep. Pretty far across the chest.

[Jeselnik]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 

Yep. Pretty far across the chest.

Left arm is bent but not the way a hack would do it.

 

 

JNIK

Edited September 13, 2024 by Jeselnik

[iacas]

16 minutes ago, Jeselnik said:

Left arm is bent but not the way a hack would do it.

 

A golfer's left elbow tends to bend when their right elbow goes around behind them a good bit and they can't pull their left arm farther across their chest. Some people are more barrel chested and/or less flexible in the shoulder than others.

 

I'm not sure what your point is, though, so please clarify. The picture of Viktor Hovland backs my point:

 

 

Left arm well away from the chest, right elbow not anywhere near "behind" or "around" him.

[iacas]

@MannJ, here's an example of the stuff i was talking about:

 

 

Both are multiple time major champions.

 

Here's the Tour Average models for a driver and an iron:

 

 

Here are two more multiple major winners:

 

 

Here are two more major winners:

 

 

And… on the women's side, two more multiple major winners:

 

 

The smallest adduction angle in the bunch (the larger of the numbers) is the one I noted above: spine to lead shoulder to lead elbow. And the smallest that number gets is over 62°.

 

The other addiction angle ignores the height and just measures how far across the chest the lead arm moves. The largest number there is 47° (second closest is 40° by a five-time major winner and noted "arm swinger"), and that's by a guy with one major from over 20 years ago and who last had a top-five in a major way back in 2012.

 

I regularly see adduction angles (the first one) in the low 50s and even the low 40s from bad golfers, with the second number jumping into the 50s and occasionally the 60s.

 

Edited September 13, 2024 by iacas

[Zitlow]

The left shoulder and arm work like the revolving side of a compass. The club head tracks along the perimeter of the arc on the inclined plane.

 

 

Austin and Dunaway didn't swing the club in a line in front of them, they swung it in a circle around them.

 

[Zitlow]

15 hours ago, doctor220 said:

Look at the position of his lead arm. He is absolutely not letting it get across the chest , as the rest of the folks in the thread are talking about 

 

Dunaway pulled his right humerus bone back which retracted (adducted) his right shoulder blade and protracted (abducted) his left shoulder blade similar to what Freddy does. 

[MannJ]

I have a follow up question. 
My current understanding is that at the top of the backswing, the hands should be directly in line (above) the ankle from a 2 dimensional, DTL perspective. Give or take an inch or 2. This is regardless of arm length? 

So limiting the lead arm adduction keeps you from going past this point (hands at top directly over ankles), but the why you don’t want to go beyond this point I am not clear on. 

You get the club too far behind you, tipping the scale too far on the side of a flat swing which creates the necessity for more horizontal forces rather than more balanced or vertical forces? Is that correct?

[ferrispgm]

A benefit of not allowing the lead arm to adduct too much is it makes it easier for the arms to fire in transition.  Getting the lead arm too pinned makes this very difficult and makes a good transition very difficult.  If the arms are supposed to slightly adduct more in transition before they fire....If they are already pinned and then you go into transition you are pretty much out of ROM.

[iacas]

11 hours ago, Zitlow said:

Austin and Dunaway didn't swing the club in a line in front of them, they swung it in a circle around them.

 

 

The "front of you" moves. It's pointing at the lower right corner of the picture above (say 3:30 or so), while his trail elbow is pointing at 5:40.

 

Rotation of the body moves the club "around." The arms are primarily responsible for moving the club up and down. Nobody's ever suggested moving the club "in a line in front of" the golfer.

 

P.S. I'm not a big fan of Freddie's swing either, for reasons I've previously written. His left arm is also pulled his left arm way across his chest and got his right elbow really trapped/stuck behind him.

 

Edited September 14, 2024 by iacas
typo

[Jeselnik]

22 hours ago, iacas said:

 

A golfer's left elbow tends to bend when their right elbow goes around behind them a good bit and they can't pull their left arm farther across their chest. Some people are more barrel chested and/or less flexible in the shoulder than others.

 

I'm not sure what your point is, though, so please clarify. The picture of Viktor Hovland backs my point:

 

 

Left arm well away from the chest, right elbow not anywhere near "behind" or "around" him.

 

Dunaway isn’t using or loses extensor action and is using PP#4.

Hovland is using EA and a cheat code, not typical Pp#4. 
 

JNIK

[iacas]

38 minutes ago, Jeselnik said:

Dunaway isn’t using or loses extensor action and is using PP#4.

Hovland is using EA and a cheat code, not typical Pp#4. 

 

I'm still not sure I get the point of bringing up Viktor Hovland as one example when a) he adducts his lead arm very little, like most PGA Tour players, and b) he's a bit of an oddity, and there's really often very little value IMO of bringing up ONE person or example. And also, c) TGM hasn't been updated meaningfully in forever, and we have learned a lot since then. It's fine to use some of the terms, but long drive guys don't use extensor action either, so… IMO it's of even less value than one example.

[ShowMe]

On 9/13/2024 at 10:20 AM, Zitlow said:

The left shoulder and arm work like the revolving side of a compass. The club head tracks along the perimeter of the arc on the inclined plane.

 

 

Austin and Dunaway didn't swing the club in a line in front of them, they swung it in a circle around them.

 

My back started hurting just looking at that picture.  It’s been 30 years since I could rotate that much.  

[Jeselnik]

9 hours ago, iacas said:

 

I'm still not sure I get the point of bringing up Viktor Hovland as one example when a) he adducts his lead arm very little, like most PGA Tour players, and b) he's a bit of an oddity, and there's really often very little value IMO of bringing up ONE person or example. And also, c) TGM hasn't been updated meaningfully in forever, and we have learned a lot since then. It's fine to use some of the terms, but long drive guys don't use extensor action either, so… IMO it's of even less value than one example.

Oops…….I thought the topic was structure.  I guess people are built different nowadays?

 

 

JNIK