Lead arm adduction angle increase in backswing.

[iacas]

2 minutes ago, Jeselnik said:

Oops…….I thought the topic was structure. I guess people are built different nowadays?

 

Homer Kelley died in 1983, my man. It's not about how people are built, but it is about the fact that we can measure and we know a LOT more now than we did in 1983. Also, the equipment is quite different. If Homer had lived forever, he'd have absolutely updated the crap out of TGM.

 

Posting stills of a single Tour player don't do what you seem to think. This photo of Rory looks like he's dragged his left arm well across his chest… until you look at the shadow.

 

 

And until you look at the GEARS numbers: elbow bent 65°, with the adduction numbers shown above (left arm well off the chest). 2D photos ≠ 3D. Stills are of limited use. Exceptions to the rule are of limited use, too.

 

Why you ignored the rest and just picked up on the TGM comment is beyond me.

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 9/12/2024 at 10:54 AM, MannJ said:

That was the video. They give a couple of drills at the end but the basic idea was maintaining some space between the lead arm and chest during backswing. 
It’s a lot easier said than done. 
 

 

One of the "aha" moments for me on this was the Arm Swing Illusion thread. Essentially the concept is that most [poor] golfers have a concept of the swing as the arms moving significantly across the chest. They do move across, but a LOT less than what it might look like in 2D stills of elite golf swings. 

 

I recommend checking out that thread. But for an example, try one thing for me:

1. Take your normal address position.
2. C0ck your wrists. 
3. Raise your hands 6-12" (how much is dependent on the person).
4. Move your hands laterally only a few inches so your left hand is roughly directly in front of your right shoulder. It's going to feel like you've barely moved it.
5. Turn to the top without moving anything in your arm structure. 

Look at that picture/video of where you are at the top, and you'll probably be in a textbook P4. Depending on your range of motion with shoulder turn, it might LOOK like your arms are very deep. But you'll know better, because you preset them to know they're not deep at all. 

 

That's all the arm movement you need in the backswing. 6-12" vertically up, and just a few inches horizontally to the trail side. 

[Jeselnik]

12 hours ago, iacas said:

 

Homer Kelley died in 1983, my man. It's not about how people are built, but it is about the fact that we can measure and we know a LOT more now than we did in 1983. Also, the equipment is quite different. If Homer had lived forever, he'd have absolutely updated the crap out of TGM.

 

Posting stills of a single Tour player don't do what you seem to think. This photo of Rory looks like he's dragged his left arm well across his chest… until you look at the shadow.

 

 

And until you look at the GEARS numbers: elbow bent 65°, with the adduction numbers shown above (left arm well off the chest). 2D photos ≠ 3D. Stills are of limited use. Exceptions to the rule are of limited use, too.

 

Why you ignored the rest and just picked up on the TGM comment is beyond me.

LOL……OK, at this point each of us is having the conversation we would like to have even though there isn’t a disagreement.  The OP’s thread went askew because Zillow said pinned and nobody addressed how to manage adduction.

1.  Can you see Dunaway’s adduction in 2D, are you looking at his right arm, do you have his gears or was Zitlow’s pin comment enough?

 

2.  If you simply stop pinning is everything copacetic?  What is the swing fault that allows/causes lead arm to pin.  The answer is not that adduction doesn’t match the PGA tour mean.  
 

 

JNIK

 

 

 

[iacas]

Like I've written before, I tell my juniors (and a good chunk of my adult students, too): body = around, arms = up/down. Arm motions that move the club "around" you get problematic quickly.

[Zitlow]

I like this Snead video.

 

 

 

[ferrispgm]

I'm starting to feel like it should be a requirement on here to post a verified video of your own swing and handicap before arguing how well qualified instructors who not only study data and apply it with success are wrong.  If only i could find a forum on how the female mind works.

[MonteScheinblum]

3 hours ago, ferrispgm said:

I'm starting to feel like it should be a requirement on here to post a verified video of your own swing and handicap before arguing how well qualified instructors who not only study data and apply it with success are wrong.  If only i could find a forum on how the female mind works.

You have totally missed the point of the internet and golf discussions in general.

 

I’m reminded of a range discussion that was e pluribus unum, but my favorite.  It was right after I led a korn ferry event with 6 holes to play on Sunday.  I airmailed the green on 13 and made double foiling my chances.  I sat there for over an hour and listened to a large group of 8-15 handicaps tell me all the mistakes I make when I play golf and why I’m not on the pga tour.  It ranged from practice routines, to mechanics through the bag, to strategy mistakes and attitude problems.   Must have been 2 dozen issues.

 

I listened the whole time and then asked, “Fair enough.  If I have upwards of 2 dozen issues at my level and since you all seem so well educated on what it takes to be on tour, why aren’t you all better?”

 

They all looked at each other and one said, “We don’t practice enough.”

 

That was a very educational moment for me.

 

So now when people ask me, “If you’re so talented and you know so much about how to swing better and how to get better at golf, why aren’t you on the champions tour?”

 

“I don’t practice enough.”

[Nels55]

I can see where it would often be a lot more enjoyable to have a nice steady job teaching golf as opposed to grinding it out on the Champions Tour.  LOL I have never been in a position to make such a choice but I believe that I would have kept my day job even if I was somehow good enough to try it back then.

[virtuoso]

2 hours ago, Nels55 said:

I can see where it would often be a lot more enjoyable to have a nice steady job teaching golf as opposed to grinding it out on the Champions Tour.  LOL I have never been in a position to make such a choice but I believe that I would have kept my day job even if I was somehow good enough to try it back then.

Well, if you could keep your Champions tour card, it would be quite a bit less of a grind than a steady teaching job. And you’d only be working about 20 weeks a year.

 

@MonteScheinblum can check my math on these scenarios.

 

Champions Tour: you have the next 3 weeks off but your wife is torn about which resort spa you should stay in at the next tournament site. You do have one 45 minute clinic at Hillcrest  you need to do for 10k and a 3 minute commercial shoot for the new Tour Edge 7 wood.

 

Steady teaching job: Tuesday afternoon, you just quickly finished a bad Robertos burrito because your 11:00 lesson was a talker, but you need to get started with your 1:00. Harold, your 2:00 is 10 minutes late, and Bill, your 3:00 is a new student and got there 45 minutes early, “ to have plenty of time to warm up.” By the time 4:00 rolls around, that burrito is moving and you’re afraid to fart because you might s*** yourself. Your 4:00, Fred, is a successful business owner who sold his business at 47 years old. He is a vanity 3 hdcp, and wants you to help him get ready for the senior tour. He paid you for a series of 10 lessons a year ago, the money is all gone, 4 more lessons to go, and he always waits until the end of the hour to ask, “Hey, can you just take a quick look at my putting?”

 

Lets go with scenario 1.

Edited September 18, 2024 by virtuoso

[iacas]

4 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Steady teaching job: Tuesday afternoon, you just quickly finished a bad Robertos burrito …

That scenario doesn’t track. He gets to eat lunch?

 

@MannJ, has your original question been fully answered?

 

Edited September 18, 2024 by iacas

[johnrobison]

5 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Let’s go with scenario 1.

Fair enough but do you not get the burrito?

Edited September 18, 2024 by johnrobison

[virtuoso]

49 minutes ago, johnrobison said:

Fair enough but do you not get the burrito?

That’s actually a much more complicated question than it seems. 
 

I don’t want to out you but you may already be familiar with the SoCal legend and lore of the (fill in the blank)-bertos taco shops originating as Roberto’s in San Ysidro in 1971. Without question the original Roberto’s Carne Asada burrito is the best burrito you will ever have but as you get further out in the family line and decendents that opened up Alberto’s, Alberto’s, Albiertos, (with occasional “Jr” added), you never quite know how close your burrito will be to the original. They never rate better than B from the health dept, but at 25 years old, after a night of drinking, or a morning after golf or surfing, it doesn’t matter. At 55 years old….it matters, but still sometimes worth the risk.

Edited September 18, 2024 by virtuoso

[MannJ]

3 hours ago, iacas said:

That scenario doesn’t track. He gets to eat lunch?

 

@MannJ, has your original question been fully answered?

 

My original question has been yes. I had a follow up question later on that fell between the cracks of some other stuff. The follow up question was basically why we are “keeping the arms in front of the chest”, or to what degree is essential. I ask the war to know how far I can take it. 
I have been trying to get my hands at the top of the swing aligned with my ankles from DTL as a checkpoint to know I have not gone crazy with arms. 
It is difficult for me. I’m short, have a flat swing, really flexible, and overall bad mechanics I’m sure. I want to have the club in a workable position, so I want to know 

a) this is all about not getting the arms stuck behind me

and 

b) the ankle checkpoint is where I should be regardless of swing plane and physical build 

[ferrispgm]

13 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

You have totally missed the point of the internet and golf discussions in general.

 

I’m reminded of a range discussion that was e pluribus unum, but my favorite.  It was right after I led a korn ferry event with 6 holes to play on Sunday.  I airmailed the green on 13 and made double foiling my chances.  I sat there for over an hour and listened to a large group of 8-15 handicaps tell me all the mistakes I make when I play golf and why I’m not on the pga tour.  It ranged from practice routines, to mechanics through the bag, to strategy mistakes and attitude problems.   Must have been 2 dozen issues.

 

I listened the whole time and then asked, “Fair enough.  If I have upwards of 2 dozen issues at my level and since you all seem so well educated on what it takes to be on tour, why aren’t you all better?”

 

They all looked at each other and one said, “We don’t practice enough.”

 

That was a very educational moment for me.

 

So now when people ask me, “If you’re so talented and you know so much about how to swing better and how to get better at golf, why aren’t you on the champions tour?”

 

“I don’t practice enough.”

 

hahahaha nice....Personally I think you just need to adjust your ball position and you wouldn't have to worry about airmailing greens.  

[Sean124]

51 minutes ago, ferrispgm said:

 

hahahaha nice....Personally I think you just need to adjust your ball position and you wouldn't have to worry about airmailing greens.  

Trash. Can. Lids. 

[Nels55]

8 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Well, if you could keep your Champions tour card, it would be quite a bit less of a grind than a steady teaching job. And you’d only be working about 20 weeks a year.

 

@MonteScheinblum can check my math on these scenarios.

 

Champions Tour: you have the next 3 weeks off but your wife is torn about which resort spa you should stay in at the next tournament site. You do have one 45 minute clinic at Hillcrest  you need to do for 10k and a 3 minute commercial shoot for the new Tour Edge 7 wood.

 

Steady teaching job: Tuesday afternoon, you just quickly finished a bad Robertos burrito because your 11:00 lesson was a talker, but you need to get started with your 1:00. Harold, your 2:00 is 10 minutes late, and Bill, your 3:00 is a new student and got there 45 minutes early, “ to have plenty of time to warm up.” By the time 4:00 rolls around, that burrito is moving and you’re afraid to fart because you might s*** yourself. Your 4:00, Fred, is a successful business owner who sold his business at 47 years old. He is a vanity 3 hdcp, and wants you to help him get ready for the senior tour. He paid you for a series of 10 lessons a year ago, the money is all gone, 4 more lessons to go, and he always waits until the end of the hour to ask, “Hey, can you just take a quick look at my putting?”

 

Lets go with scenario 1.

I actually know what it’s like to work 24/7 for start up while commuting a couple hours a day so your teaching job sounds pretty cushy!

 

Anyway I was talking about working on your game 10 hours a day while scratching to hang onto your card and staying at motel 6 wondering how your going to pay your next alimony payment.

[iacas]

15 minutes ago, MannJ said:

My original question has been yes. I had a follow up question later on that fell between the cracks of some other stuff. The follow up question was basically why we are “keeping the arms in front of the chest”, or to what degree is essential. I ask the war to know how far I can take it.

 

In my simplified (like I said, typically for juniors) "arms = up/down, body = around," because I see the trail elbow getting "around" too much as pretty problematic, particularly for irons.

 

Tour averages (which I keep in mind are averages with ranges and standard deviations and whatnot — they're not a "rule" or anything rigid) are about 20° of adduction. Tour average is also less than 90° or trail elbow bend (from straight), too, and with the average amateur you're closer to 40° and 115°+.

 

The two are very linked - if you over-flex your trail elbow, it's really tough not to let that pull your lead arm across your chest too far. And yeah, I'm saying "too far" as a judgment/opinion. Others might like it…

 

Anyway, as to why? It gives our arms way less to do in the downswing, and more of a linear move to make: the trail elbow goes from in front of your chest somewhat (the trail side of your chest) to the trail hip pocket. When you pull that elbow around behind you a bunch, it has to take a rounded path to the ball. The former is faster, and easier, and less variable. It also takes less time, which means your body won't have to stall to wait for your elbow to get somewhere back near the front side of your belly.

 

54 minutes ago, MannJ said:

I have been trying to get my hands at the top of the swing aligned with my ankles from DTL as a checkpoint to know I have not gone crazy with arms. 

 

Be aware of the 3D -> 2D effect here. If you turn more or less, that will move your hands around relative to your ankles from DL, and also if you flex or extend your trail elbow, that'll move your hands around.

 

In other words, if you don't turn, you may seek to gain depth by pulling your hands around you with the trail elbow, pulling the lead arm across your chest "too much."

 

I teach occasionally (literally they make like three swings) with something called "The Tube®" (it's not actually ® but that's an inside joke 😄), and it's a barely flexible piece of garden tubing we put over the trail elbow. The amount that people turn and thus the depth they get is crazy.

 

I only do three swings with it because I just use it as a proof of concept. The shaft angle and the other things that people will get using The Tube® is often crazy — their elbow "gets in front of them" because it never got around them. It never left the front side of them. Even with a giant Tube on their elbow, it has plenty of room to forward at impact.

 

Of the images below, obviously, the top is exaggerated. In almost every case it's literally their first swing with The Tube® on. I record FO, DL, and then the third swing I tell them the fourth swing has to look just as good (without The Tube®), so the third swing is for them to really focus on what The Tube® makes them do.

 

 

 

These arms are still a bit "late" (not a lot), but this shows how "The Tube® makes you turn."

 

 

 

… without getting your arms/hands "behind" you.

[virtuoso]

6 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

Anyway I was talking about working on your game 10 hours a day while scratching to hang onto your card and staying at motel 6 wondering how your going to pay your next alimony payment.

You're talking about the Golden State Tour, not the Champions Tour. But on the Golden State Tour, there is no card to hang on to. All you had to do was show up and write them a check that wouldn't bounce.

Edited September 18, 2024 by virtuoso

[MonteScheinblum]

Champions tour is like an ATM machine.

 

No cut, automatic check and half the field can’t play anymore as they are there for name recognition.

 

Still hard to keep your card.

 

 

[bladehunter]

10 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Well, if you could keep your Champions tour card, it would be quite a bit less of a grind than a steady teaching job. And you’d only be working about 20 weeks a year.

 

@MonteScheinblum can check my math on these scenarios.

 

Champions Tour: you have the next 3 weeks off but your wife is torn about which resort spa you should stay in at the next tournament site. You do have one 45 minute clinic at Hillcrest  you need to do for 10k and a 3 minute commercial shoot for the new Tour Edge 7 wood.

 

Steady teaching job: Tuesday afternoon, you just quickly finished a bad Robertos burrito because your 11:00 lesson was a talker, but you need to get started with your 1:00. Harold, your 2:00 is 10 minutes late, and Bill, your 3:00 is a new student and got there 45 minutes early, “ to have plenty of time to warm up.” By the time 4:00 rolls around, that burrito is moving and you’re afraid to fart because you might s*** yourself. Your 4:00, Fred, is a successful business owner who sold his business at 47 years old. He is a vanity 3 hdcp, and wants you to help him get ready for the senior tour. He paid you for a series of 10 lessons a year ago, the money is all gone, 4 more lessons to go, and he always waits until the end of the hour to ask, “Hey, can you just take a quick look at my putting?”

 

Lets go with scenario 1.

It feels good to read that the public isn’t just horrible to car guy/mechanics …. Some days I think it’s just me.  And wonder why I didn’t choose better.  But there is no escape.  It all sucks.  

[Ghost of Snead]

5 hours ago, virtuoso said:

That’s actually a much more complicated question than it seems. 
 

I don’t want to out you but you may already be familiar with the SoCal legend and lore of the (fill in the blank)-bertos taco shops originating as Roberto’s in San Ysidro in 1971. Without question the original Roberto’s Carne Asada burrito is the best burrito you will ever have but as you get further out in the family line and decendents that opened up Alberto’s, Alberto’s, Albiertos, (with occasional “Jr” added), you never quite know how close your burrito will be to the original. They never rate better than B from the health dept, but at 25 years old, after a night of drinking, or a morning after golf or surfing, it doesn’t matter. At 55 years old….it matters, but still sometimes worth the risk.

 

Last time I was in Del Mar, I made the mistake of eating at Roberto's on Carmel Valley. Guess that Roberto's was really far down in the family tree.

[virtuoso]

11 minutes ago, Ghost of Snead said:

 

Last time I was in Del Mar, I made the mistake of eating at Roberto's on Carmel Valley. Guess that Roberto's was really far down in the family tree.

Interesting, that one has been pretty good to me. Roberto's Roulette.

[virtuoso]

33 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

It feels good to read that the public isn’t just horrible to car guy/mechanics …. Some days I think it’s just me.  And wonder why I didn’t choose better.  But there is no escape.  It all sucks.  

It was mostly tongue in cheek....mostly. Obviously we enjoy helping people; otherwise we would quit and sell insurance....where the real money is.

[bladehunter]

56 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

It was mostly tongue in cheek....mostly. Obviously we enjoy helping people; otherwise we would quit and sell insurance....where the real money is.

I guess so. Come to think of it i play with an insurance/finance guy.  And he does have new cars every 6 months. Why didn’t our guidance counselor let us in on this ?  Secret handshake to learn ?  Or some sort of fraternity/ gang initiation?  
 

you see my golf question above ?  🤣.  Or somewhere .  Curious about these hip actions.  
 

[johnrobison]

2 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Interesting, that one has been pretty good to me. Roberto's Roulette.

Most, if not all, are 24X7 operations and time of day/night is as important as location on the roulette wheel. In fact... A matrix to determine where to go and when would be pretty valuable.

 

7 hours ago, virtuoso said:

but at 25 years old, after a night of drinking, or a morning after golf or surfing...

That actually immediately surfaced old images of Naugles for me!!!

[virtuoso]

16 hours ago, bladehunter said:

I guess so. Come to think of it i play with an insurance/finance guy.  And he does have new cars every 6 months. Why didn’t our guidance counselor let us in on this ?  Secret handshake to learn ?  Or some sort of fraternity/ gang initiation?  
 

you see my golf question above ?  🤣.  Or somewhere .  Curious about these hip actions.  
 

You mean in the other thread with the AMG video? I always like what they say because they correctly identify what technically happens, but I have a different approach in telling people how they would have to feel to make it actually happen. In my presentation to The Grovelers I go into detail about some of the individual movements, especially pelvis sway which has to be extracted, and then counteracted by abduction/adduction of hips followed by spine curving.

[Zitlow]

Sync up your swing.

 

 

Don't waste your time or money on an "instructor" who tells you left arm off chest. 

 

 

 

[bladehunter]

2 hours ago, virtuoso said:

You mean in the other thread with the AMG video? I always like what they say because they correctly identify what technically happens, but I have a different approach in telling people how they would have to feel to make it actually happen. In my presentation to The Grovelers I go into detail about some of the individual movements, especially pelvis sway which has to be extracted, and then counteracted by abduction/adduction of hips followed by spine curving.

Yep. Sorry. I did tag you here about a post there 🤦‍♂️.  Being slightly touched in the head has its drawbacks. 🤣.  
 

is that presentation in that thread ?  Or on video ?  I’ll go look and see if I see it.    But short version I’m gettin here is pelvis doesn’t move forward. Toward the target? Is that what the peanut  gallery calls “ open too soon “ etc ?   Sorry if that’s not coming across clearly. I’ve read that comment 20 times lately and I just scratch my head as to how it’s literally possible ?  

Edited September 19, 2024 by bladehunter

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, Zitlow said:

Sync up your swing.

 

 

Don't waste your time or money on an "instructor" who tells you left arm off chest. 

 

 

 

You really are persistent in your agenda 

[virtuoso]

41 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

Yep. Sorry. I did tag you here about a post there 🤦‍♂️.  Being slightly touched in the head has its drawbacks. 🤣.  
 

is that presentation in that thread ?  Or on video ?  I’ll go look and see if I see it.    But short version I’m gettin here is pelvis doesn’t move forward. Toward the target? Is that what the peanut  gallery calls “ open too soon “ etc ?   Sorry if that’s not coming across clearly. I’ve read that comment 20 times lately and I just scratch my head as to how it’s literally possible ?  

The videos are in the Grovelers section. You have to be a member to see them. Would you like to join? Here are the qualifications:

 

A Groveler: Generally a golfer of fairly low intelligence who does not hesitate to constantly grovel for bad information in a desperate yet futile attempt to quit embarrassing themselves on the golf course.