Correcting drop while using E-5.

[Augster]

This happened yesterday. Player loses his ball down the right and after his 3 minute search, elects to take E5 in the fairway. 
 

He drops within 2CL’s of the edge at his estimated point. After the drop, but before he plays it, a guy on another hole calls over and says he found the ball. It was about 40 yards ahead of the player’s estimated point. 
 

Does the player get to drop again, further up, after the new information? I know for lateral PA’s, I found the clarification but can’t find it right now, when there is new info you drop in the correct place. 
 

Thanks for the help. 
 

 

[davep043]

Interesting question, 14.5 does require correcting a mistake if it becomes known that he's not in the Relief Area, based on the new information.  If the dropped ball is not in the acceptable Relief Area, I'd say he must correct it.  However, the Relief Area under E-5 is huge, so even if he's 40 yards back he may still be in an acceptable location.  If so, I'd say he has to play from that spot.  Thats my opinion, but I don't think its clear in the rules.

[antip]

This is a classic situation - a scenario on which there is no official advice - so a Committee can decide whatever they think is a fair thing. Dave has expressed his Committee view 🙂, and I agree with his observation that 17.1d(3)/2 is not directly applicable here.

[Augster]

7 hours ago, davep043 said:

Interesting question, 14.5 does require correcting a mistake if it becomes known that he's not in the Relief Area, based on the new information.  If the dropped ball is not in the acceptable Relief Area, I'd say he must correct it.  However, the Relief Area under E-5 is huge, so even if he's 40 yards back he may still be in an acceptable location.  If so, I'd say he has to play from that spot.  Thats my opinion, but I don't think its clear in the rules.

Thanks for the help Dave!

Looking at the E5 relief diagrams, in this case for sure, his original drop in the fairway would have been outside the new relief area based on the known location of the lost ball. 

 

[Augster]

17 minutes ago, antip said:

This is a classic situation - a scenario on which there is no official advice - so a Committee can decide whatever they think is a fair thing. Dave has expressed his Committee view 🙂, and I agree with his observation that 17.1d(3)/2 is not directly applicable here.

Thanks for finding that! I had it the other day and for the life of me I couldn’t find it again. I took a screen grab of it so I know I’ll be able to find it in the future. 🙂

 

IF 17.1d(3)/2 is applicable to the E5 situation, the player MUST redrop in the new relief area. 
 

Aren’t there only 3 situations in ROG where a player just uses his best guess as to where the ball is, or crossed a boundary or a PA line? E5, PA KVC, and ball at rest moved by outside agency? (There maybe others, it’s late.) Shouldn’t 17.1d(3)/2 be applicable to all of them? 
 

We have tons of blind landing areas, and as we transition to fall, we’ll be using E5 more and more with leaves on the ground. It’d be nice to get this clarified. I may need to write the USGA. 
 

Thanks for the help!

[Imp]

Yep. Agreed. The applicable part is: 

Quote

However, if the player becomes aware that the reference point is wrong before making a stroke, they must correct the mistake.

 

Still have to take the drop and take the 2 stroke penalty and the drop in the now proper location.

[Schulzmc]

But for me the key learning here is that, since the relief area extends back to infinity, there may indeed be a case where the drop is 40 yards (or more!) back from where it COULD have been but it would still be in the relief area so no correction is necessary… or allowed.

[antip]

4 hours ago, Augster said:

Thanks for the help Dave!

Looking at the E5 relief diagrams, in this case for sure, his original drop in the fairway would have been outside the new relief area based on the known location of the lost ball. 

 

If the new information shows the drop location is outside the correct relief area (but noting E-5 relief areas can be enormous) then I agree the correct action would be for the player to lift the dropped ball and drop somewhere in the correct relief area. 

 

If, though, the new information affirms the ball has been dropped and come to rest within the correct relief area, then that is the question to seek a USGA opinion for - MAY or MUST the player re-drop in this situation?

[davep043]

1 hour ago, antip said:

If, though, the new information affirms the ball has been dropped and come to rest within the correct relief area, then that is the question to seek a USGA opinion for - MAY or MUST the player re-drop in this situation?

I agree, this is the issue.  To me, 17.1d(3)/2 is there to allow the Player to "get it right" when new information becomes available before a Stroke is made.  To quote that Clarification:

"However, there are situations when, before the player has made a stroke, it becomes known that the reference point is wrong and this mistake must be corrected."

We are then referred to Rule 14.5,  Correcting Mistake Made in Substituting, Replacing, Dropping or Placing Ball.  The concept here is that the Player must retain whatever he has done right, and only correct his mistake.  For 17.1d(3)/2, the Player used an applicable rule, dropped in the right way, but learned he had dropped in a Wrong Place.  So the Wrong Place MUST be corrected.

Using that same concept, I'd say the Player MUST re-drop if it becomes known that his initial drop is in a Wrong Place before he makes his next Stroke.  As long as his initial drop is in the "revised" Relief Area, I'd say that it must stand.  There really is no "mistake" to correct, he's used an applicable rule, dropped correctly, and even with the new information has dropped in the correct Relief Area.  To me this approach follows the guidance from 20.3, which says:

"Any situation not covered by the Rules should be decided by the Committee:

Considering all the circumstances, and

Treating the situation in a way that is reasonable, fair and consistent with how similar situations are treated under the Rules."

Again, the USGA may give different guidance, I'll be interested to hear.

 

[Augster]

USGA got back to me on this today. I don’t think they’ll make an official “clarification”, I feel they should, but at least we now have an official/unofficial answer. Dave was spot on in the post above this one. 
 

If the player takes his best guess on an E-5 lost ball and drops in the relief area, then after dropping but before playing, his ball is found creating an expanded relief area, if the ball was dropped already and would be in the new relief area also, the ball is played as it lies. 
 

If the player takes his best guess on an E-5 lost ball and drops in the relief area, but before playing, then after dropping receives new information creating a different relief area, one where his ball is currently lying outside of, the player must correct this and drop in the new relief area as per 17.1d(3)/2. 
 

Hopefully we will get an “official” clarification in the Rules someday showing this, but for now this is their guidance and seems most equitable/comparable to the situation with PA relief. 
 

 

 

[bobfoster]

5 hours ago, Augster said:

USGA got back to me on this today. I don’t think they’ll make an official “clarification”, I feel they should, but at least we now have an official/unofficial answer. Dave was spot on in the post above this one. 
 

If the player takes his best guess on an E-5 lost ball and drops in the relief area, then after dropping but before playing, his ball is found creating an expanded relief area, if the ball was dropped already and would be in the new relief area also, the ball is played as it lies. 
 

If the player takes his best guess on an E-5 lost ball and drops in the relief area, but before playing, then after dropping receives new information creating a different relief area, one where his ball is currently lying outside of, the player must correct this and drop in the new relief area as per 17.1d(3)/2. 
 

Hopefully we will get an “official” clarification in the Rules someday showing this, but for now this is their guidance and seems most equitable/comparable to the situation with PA relief. 

Thanks for this. And I agree, I would like a USGA clarification. 

 

This is one of those rules I think of as "amateur" rules. I'm referencing one of your earlier posts in this thread about autumn golf. I played last weekend, in the northeast. Leaves already starting to fall. One both days I played, my groups spent more time than usual looking for balls. Especially on "blind" holes (for instance, dog legs where you can cut a corner, but you don't actually see you ball land). There were actually a couple instances where a buddy found their actual ball (hidden among leaves) after they had dropped and hit. (I know, not the same rules thing, but really kind of the same issue: Leaves are a real problem in the fall in the north.) 

 

This is only an issue for amateurs - and the USGA takes those slightly less seriously IMO. The pro tours either play in the south (no leaves), or the course is cleared of leaves, and either way there are fans and tourney volunteers that look for balls. The pros never lose balls on fairways due to leaves. Most amateurs that play in the fall in the north occasionally do. 

 

 

[davep043]

On 10/9/2024 at 12:23 AM, bobfoster said:

There were actually a couple instances where a buddy found their actual ball (hidden among leaves) after they had dropped and hit.

Did you ever read Model Local Rule F-14?  it's there specifically to address situations like this.  

[davep043]

On 10/8/2024 at 4:37 PM, Augster said:

Hopefully we will get an “official” clarification in the Rules someday showing this, but for now this is their guidance and seems most equitable/comparable to the situation with PA relief.

I don't see any Clarifications related to Model Local Rules, so it seems pretty unlikely that they'll provide one for this specific situation.  We'll have to muddle through with the guidance in 20.3, 

"Treating the situation in a way that is reasonable, fair and consistent with how similar situations are treated under the Rules."

As discussed, the most similar situation I can find is from 17.1d(3)/2.  I honestly don't see any other possible

decision that hews as closely to the existing rules.  

 

On 9/19/2024 at 8:40 AM, antip said:

then that is the question to seek a USGA opinion for - MAY or MUST the player re-drop in this situation?

 

There are very few rules that give a Player a choice, I can't see giving a player a choice between a first drop (maybe in a bad lie but within the proper Relief Area) and a new drop within the same Relief Area.  

[rogolf]

35 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I don't see any Clarifications related to Model Local Rules, so it seems pretty unlikely that they'll provide one for this specific situation.  We'll have to muddle through with the guidance in 20.3, 

"Treating the situation in a way that is reasonable, fair and consistent with how similar situations are treated under the Rules."

As discussed, the most similar situation I can find is from 17.1d(3)/2.  I honestly don't see any other possible

decision that hews as closely to the existing rules.  

 

 

There are very few rules that give a Player a choice, I can't see giving a player a choice between a first drop (maybe in a bad lie but within the proper Relief Area) and a new drop within the same Relief Area.  

Agree.  17/1d(3)/2 is the similar situation.  It's all about whether or not the player has dropped in the correct relief area.  If he has, play on.  If he has not, then he must correct and drop in the correct relief area.  Since MLR E-5 creates such a large relief area, it's quite possible that the original drop is within the acceptable relief area, even if the edges of that relief area have changed.

Edited October 10, 2024 by rogolf

[nsxguy]

On 9/19/2024 at 8:38 AM, Schulzmc said:

But for me the key learning here is that, since the relief area extends back to infinity, there may indeed be a case where the drop is 40 yards (or more!) back from where it COULD have been but it would still be in the relief area so no correction is necessary… or allowed.

 

On 10/10/2024 at 11:13 AM, rogolf said:

Agree.  17/1d(3)/2 is the similar situation.  It's all about whether or not the player has dropped in the correct relief area.  If he has, play on.  If he has not, then he must correct and drop in the correct relief area.  Since MLR E-5 creates such a large relief area, it's quite possible that the original drop is within the acceptable relief area, even if the edges of that relief area have changed.

 

So Schulzie was right !!!  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 11, 2024 by nsxguy

[Schulzmc]

1 hour ago, nsxguy said:

 

 

So Schulzie was right !!!  

 

 

 

 

 

 

It was @davep043 who nailed it. I was just quoting him.

[Mr. Bean]

One bizarre thought popped up in my head.

 

In this case of E-5 the relief area may be exactly the same of partially the same. Thus a ball may have been dropped in a correct place in both of those situations. But what if that happens with a red Penalty Area? 

 

Take two points A and B. Point A is the point where player believes their ball has last crossed the margin of the PA (their best estimate). So they take that as the Reference point, take BOL relief and drop a ball correctly on the relief area. Now, at this point they get information from another person on the course saying that the original ball last crossed the margin much closer to hole at point B.

 

But incidentally those points A and B are on a straight line from the hole meaning the spot where the player dropped a ball was a correct spot, although there are other correct spots closer to hole.

 

Must the player re-drop?

[davep043]

If he intended tto take Lateral Relief, and the new Reference Point makes the initial drop in a Wrong Place for Lateral Relief, I think he must drop again.  He CAN change Relief options, take Back on the Line relief, but I believe he must make a new drop, he cannot choose to use the initial drop, even if it's in a right place based on the new point of entry.

[rogolf]

I think Mr. Bean has answered his own question about this hypothetical situation in his last paragraph when he says the player has dropped the ball in a correct relief area for back-on-the-line.  As before, if the player has dropped the ball in a correct relief area for the relief being taken, he must carry on with that ball - that would be my ruling.

Edited October 12, 2024 by rogolf

[Mr. Bean]

1 hour ago, rogolf said:

I think Mr. Bean has answered his own question about this hypothetical situation in his last paragraph when he says the player has dropped the ball in a correct relief area for back-on-the-line.  As before, if the player has dropped the ball in a correct relief area for the relief being taken, he must carry on with that ball - that would be my ruling.

 

That was my view as well. Dave made a sidekick that has no bearing on the case I proposed but is very relevant if the drop was 2cl instead of BOL.

 

Interesting scenario all in all. I doubt we will ever come accross that one...