Squirrelly at the Top (Putting)

[DaveLeeNC]

I am not a good putter, but IMHO my two biggest issues are distance control on longer putts and green reading (I just cannot accurately see or sense slopes). Attached is three consecutive (6-8 feet) putts- two makes and a miss. My stroke at the top seems vaguely squirrelly like there is some kind of mini-loop or something going on here. Comments?

 

Thanks.

 

dave

[virtuoso]

First question would be: do you know why you missed the 2nd putt?

 

Second question to confirm my suspicions, do you have any face on video?

[DaveLeeNC]

I don't have a front view - is that related to my question? To my eye aim was the culprit in putt #2 (which was not that bad a putt). I have a history of aiming issues and 'fixed that' by doing a lot of putting using a line (including on the course). Before that I simply did not see straight (by a whole lot more than the error in #2). Took a ton of work, BTW (and a lot of low level irritation among my playing partners as I iterated on my line alignment).   I HATE using the line because I am bone on bone in both knees so cannot squat down behind a putt. I find it hard to get the line right from an upright position.

 

dave

Edited September 24, 2024 by DaveLeeNC

[ferrispgm]

Hard to see but looks like a decent amount of hip rotation going back and through...when you change directions the hips open and force the club outside in and then you hold open the face to counteract the path. 

[DaveLeeNC]

@ferrispgm that is interesting and a somewhat unexpected observation. dave

[kiawah]

If you can tell that the hips moved, they're moving too much. Especially on short putts. 

[jmcm87]

An afternoon on the arc should fix it, Dave. Imagine you're stuck in concrete up to your waist and focus on a shoulder rock. Left shoulder to your belly button. Aim looks fine to me. 

 

https://eyelinegolf.com/products/edge-putting-rail-70-white-slight-arc?srsltid=AfmBOor1oDkRYnrHsojZ5SAm4FIjvJUtNrzLYOSt0kP6ppeFgY7ZnNVV

 

 

 

[DaveLeeNC]

1 hour ago, kiawah said:

If you can tell that the hips moved, they're moving too much. Especially on short putts. 

I don't see  hip motion but I do see leg motion. So it is probably there. The question  "is this worth working on" is a different question.

 

dave

[kiawah]

42 minutes ago, DaveLeeNC said:

I don't see  hip motion but I do see leg motion. So it is probably there. The question  "is this worth working on" is a different question.

 

dave

One way or the other, if you watch a video of a tour pro hitting a putt of that distance from down the line, they are pretty much statues from the waist down. Your stroke looks pretty solid, but even a degree of hip or leg turn is a degree you will have to compensate for. On short putts, there isn't much time to make such a compensation. I just think that is probably the lowest hanging fruit for you to improve your putting. 

[ferrispgm]

1 hour ago, DaveLeeNC said:

I don't see  hip motion but I do see leg motion. So it is probably there. The question  "is this worth working on" is a different question.

 

dave

I promise you, yes it's worth working on.  Looking again, the putter may be a little too long as well as your ball position looks to be around your forehead.  Doesn't have to be directly under the eyes but closer would help.  I would try choking down a bit in practice and video your setup.

[virtuoso]

3 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

I don't have a front view - is that related to my question? To my eye aim was the culprit in putt #2 (which was not that bad a putt). I have a history of aiming issues and 'fixed that' by doing a lot of putting using a line (including on the course).

The second putt was struck on the toe, no?

 

The DTL view makes me suspect you have a descending angle of attack with your putter. Front view would give more insight. Having watched good players hit putts for 25 years, I've seen only two guys actually hit downward...and they weren't good putters. Having a descending AOA would be be an excellent way to have poor speed control.

 

Additionally, that looks like a lot of face rotation for a stroke that short, especially for a left hand low guy. You do have a slight outward plane/path shift in the transition, but i think it's actually the face being very open right before transition, and then having to abruptly spin the other direction that makes it look "squirely".

[MonteScheinblum]

2 hours ago, DaveLeeNC said:

I don't see  hip motion but I do see leg motion. So it is probably there. The question  "is this worth working on" is a different question.

 

dave

Excess hip rotation with a putter is the most common fault in all of golf.  The more you have, the more difficult it is to hit it both online and solid.

 

 

See Duffner on the 72nd hole at TPC

Edited September 24, 2024 by MonteScheinblum

[DaveLeeNC]

19 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

The second putt was struck on the toe, no?

 

The DTL view makes me suspect you have a descending angle of attack with your putter. Front view would give more insight. Having watched good players hit putts for 25 years, I've seen only two guys actually hit downward...and they weren't good putters. Having a descending AOA would be be an excellent way to have poor speed control.

 

Additionally, that looks like a lot of face rotation for a stroke that short, especially for a left hand low guy. You do have a slight outward plane/path shift in the transition, but i think it's actually the face being very open right before transition, and then having to abruptly spin the other direction that makes it look "squirely".

 

Got it - very interesting. dave

[DaveLeeNC]

17 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Excess hip rotation with a putter is the most common fault in all of golf.  The more you have, the more difficult it is to hit it both online and solid.

 

 

See Duffner on the 72nd hole at TPC

Too much hip turn with the putter and not enough on full swings - such is golf I guess 😃

 

dave

[virtuoso]

1 minute ago, DaveLeeNC said:

Too much hip turn with the putter and not enough on full swings - such is golf I guess 😃

 

dave

But remember, mini hip swivels and a large hip swing open on the downswing are two different things.

[Cwebb]

2 hours ago, virtuoso said:

The second putt was struck on the toe, no?

 

The DTL view makes me suspect you have a descending angle of attack with your putter. Front view would give more insight. Having watched good players hit putts for 25 years, I've seen only two guys actually hit downward...and they weren't good putters. Having a descending AOA would be be an excellent way to have poor speed control.

 

One of the drawbacks of a cross hand grip, is that it promotes a downward angle of attack

[virtuoso]

5 minutes ago, Cwebb said:

 

One of the drawbacks of a cross hand grip, is that it promotes a downward angle of attack

Yep, levels the shoulders. Most my left low guys are 1-2 degrees up and my right hand low guys are 2-4 up. If you actually see negative attack, it's panic time.

[baudi]

On 9/24/2024 at 9:49 PM, virtuoso said:

Having a descending AOA would be be an excellent way to have poor speed control.

Now this is a bold conjecture. 

Do you have any other findings or facts available -apart from your generalized observation- to support our narrative?

[GungHoGolf]

40 minutes ago, baudi said:

Now this is a bold conjecture. 

Do you have any other findings or facts available -apart from your generalized observation- to support our narrative?

How is it bold? Is your position that a descending AoA is desirable with a putter?

[virtuoso]

42 minutes ago, baudi said:

Now this is a bold conjecture. 

Do you have any other findings or facts available -apart from your generalized observation- to support our narrative?

Not in the least. I've only seen a small sample size of people do it so the data is incomplete. It could be that hitting down is actually a great way to get the ball rolling but I'd have to observe more people using that technique to know for sure.

[baudi]

12 minutes ago, GungHoGolf said:

How is it bold? Is your position that a descending AoA is desirable with a putter?

Yes. For some shots I like this. But that's preference.

Usually the reason is speed control above the hole on fast putts.

 Basically I have two strokes for putting: a charge putt (>80-90%). And a die putt. 

The die always goes shorter than the charge putt (on a straight surface. 

Picked it up thanks to George Peper who wrote about George Low. 

Then started experimenting and let the technique integrate with my play. 

Edited September 25, 2024 by baudi

[GungHoGolf]

Just now, baudi said:

Yes. For some shots I like this. But that's preference.

And the goal is speed control.  

Interesting. Most putting gurus will tell you that a descending AoA increases backspin and can drive the ball into the turf, causing it to bounce.

[baudi]

 I derive that conclusion too. 

 

 

[iacas]

You know how I hit a putt shorter or longer? I don’t hit it as hard (or I hit it harder). I don’t completely change the impact conditions.

 

Hitting down is not a great way to putt. Empirically and experientially.

 

Edited September 26, 2024 by iacas
Clarity

[GungHoGolf]

2 hours ago, iacas said:

You know how I hit a putt shorter or longer? I don’t hit it as hard. I don’t completely change the impact conditions.

 

Hitting down is not a great way to putt. Empirically and experientially.

Same. If I have a touchy downhill slider from 4 feet, I actually try harder to make sure to hit up on it and get it rolling immediately. A bouncing or skidding ball is out of control.

[baudi]

7 hours ago, iacas said:

Hitting down is not a great way to putt. Empirically and experientially.

So there's the ubiquity of justified belief.

If I run a test would it hold up under any circumstance?

 

For those interested (probably no one) the picture proves the putt gurus are right but this situation is an extreme set up for this type of shot: a 20 ft. straight putt.

To give luck a chance: not recommended in play.       

 

[golferdude54]

SAM PuttLab data says the AoA has to be higher than the dynamic loft for the best roll, with both being positive.

[virtuoso]

3 hours ago, baudi said:

So there's the ubiquity of justified belief.

If I run a test would it hold up under any circumstance?

 

For those interested (probably no one) the picture proves the putt gurus are right but this situation is an extreme set up for this type of shot: a 20 ft. straight putt.

To give luck a chance: not recommended in play.       

 

I’m trying to get my head around the idea of trying to generate backspin on a die put and generating topspin on a charge putt, and managing or detecting the threshold you’d have to cross when you get to the in between putt, and deciding that was a good strategy given there are so many other variables to manage. It’s already hard to predict what the surface is going to do to the ball.

[baudi]

Actually that's a fair point (although I do not think in back spin or top spin for putts) 

Finding out where and when to use (another) new method technique takes pain & time. 

 My learning effort showed that in threshold situations following the normal routine (in play) is the safest way.  

But if the occasion arises (analysis) I prefer choose to play a different shot. One of the situations is a short fast downhill putt.

 

[virtuoso]

6 minutes ago, baudi said:

Actually that's a fair point (although I do not think in back spin or top spin for putts) 

Finding out where and when to use (another) new method technique takes pain & time. 

 My learning effort showed that in threshold situations following the normal routine (in play) is the safest way.  

But if the occasion arises (analysis) I prefer choose to play a different shot. One of the situations is a short fast downhill putt.

 

Well, when you generate backspin and excessive skid which shortens the roll out due to friction, and then generate topspin and reduce friction, thereby increasing roll out, you pull the results farther apart for a given head speed and farther from the neutral threshold. If I was trying to make speed control across the surface as unpredictable as possible, this would be a good strategy.

Edited September 26, 2024 by virtuoso