On Course: fallen tree

[Augster]

Hey, 

 

Tree fell over. Ball is under it and interference with stance and lie. It just happened last night, so the crews haven’t been out to get it, but they will be eventually. 
 

Certainly hasn’t been piled for removal. Any relief? Thanks

[rogolf]

Probably, but ask the Committee. 

[davep043]

No relief unless its specifically been defined as  GUR.  If its still attached at all, its not even a Loose Impediment, but if its completely separated you COULD move it away, if possible.  The logical thing would be for a Committee to allow GUR relief.

[Augster]

Thanks. 
 

What if the entire tree that fell over and is completely inside a PA? 
 

I didn’t allow him free relief as his ball may or may not have been in the PA (shouldn’t matter really), and the tree itself they haven’t started to remove it. Hard for me to call it GUR when they haven’t started working on it yet. 

[Colin L]

1 hour ago, Augster said:

Thanks. 
 

What if the entire tree that fell over and is completely inside a PA? 
 

 

As you can't take free relief from an abnormal course condition in a penalty area you can't make the area of the tree GUR.  17.1b applies - play the ball as it lies or take penalty area relief.  You just don't get a free pass out of a penalty area.

Edited October 3, 2024 by Colin L

[Augster]

Thanks for the help!

 

If his ball lies outside the PA, but branches etc. from the fallen tree are mostly inside the PA, but do reach out and cover his ball and interfere with his stance, could the branches that reach outside the PA be deemed ACC but the rest of the tree inside the PA isn’t?

 

Said another way, if his ball was outside the PA, every part of his stance would be inside the PA and in the tree, if he could take a stance. The only part of the tree outside the PA are the ends of the sticks and branches covering his ball. 
 

If the tree had started to be cut up etc. I’m pretty sure that changed things. But as we encountered it, nothing was being done to it. Yet. 
 

Lastly, what is the determinant of whether his ball is in or out of the PA? We couldn’t string it stake to stake as the tree was in the way. With no red line on the ground, which takes precedence, stakes or the cut of the grass between the edge of the PA and the PA? 
 

Thanks a lot. 

[rogolf]

23 minutes ago, Augster said:

Thanks for the help!

 

If his ball lies outside the PA, but branches etc. from the fallen tree are mostly inside the PA, but do reach out and cover his ball and interfere with his stance, could the branches that reach outside the PA be deemed ACC but the rest of the tree inside the PA isn’t?

 

Said another way, if his ball was outside the PA, every part of his stance would be inside the PA and in the tree, if he could take a stance. The only part of the tree outside the PA are the ends of the sticks and branches covering his ball. 
 

If the tree had started to be cut up etc. I’m pretty sure that changed things. But as we encountered it, nothing was being done to it. Yet. 
 

Lastly, what is the determinant of whether his ball is in or out of the PA? We couldn’t string it stake to stake as the tree was in the way. With no red line on the ground, which takes precedence, stakes or the cut of the grass between the edge of the PA and the PA? 
 

Thanks a lot. 

Whether relief might be permitted depends on where the ball lies.  If it's in the PA, no free relief.  If it's outside the PA, there may be free relief depending on how the Committee rules (play two balls and ask the Committee later).  The location of the stance is irrelevant.

If there is no line on the ground, it's stake to stake (the cut of the grass is irrelevant unless the Committee has made some clarifying statement regarding that).

[Augster]

25 minutes ago, rogolf said:

Whether relief might be permitted depends on where the ball lies.  If it's in the PA, no free relief.  If it's outside the PA, there may be free relief depending on how the Committee rules (play two balls and ask the Committee later).  The location of the stance is irrelevant.

If there is no line on the ground, it's stake to stake (the cut of the grass is irrelevant unless the Committee has made some clarifying statement regarding that).

Excellent. Thanks very much!

[Mr. Bean]

On top of those excellent answers I wish to add that your group may form your own committee so it is entirely up to you what you do.

[Newby]

2 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

On top of those excellent answers I wish to add that your group may form your own committee so it is entirely up to you what you do.

Was this in a competition run by a committee or just 'casual' play.

[Mr. Bean]

34 minutes ago, Newby said:

Was this in a competition run by a committee or just 'casual' play.

 

In competitions there normally are referees from whom to ask. I reckon this was casual play.

[Colin L]

32 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

In competitions there normally are referees from whom to ask. I reckon this was casual play.

I'd qualify that a bit.   Throughout the limited part of the golfing world I know, the UK,  hundreds  of club competitions are played weekly throughout the season by golfers who have never seen a referee on a course and never will.  It is mostly chance if there is a qualified referee in a club and even if there is  he/she won't be turning out twice a week to referee.  At my own club which is probably unusual in currently having three qualified referees,  we only cover our match play and stroke play Championships, not least because we pay our fees  to play golf!  In none of our competitions,

 

I have to say the concept of forming your own committee or 3 or 4 is just a rather fancy  justification of  "it's casual golf; do what you please."

[Augster]

4 hours ago, Newby said:

Was this in a competition run by a committee or just 'casual' play.

Casual play.

 

With the caveat that I am part of the committee if/when this comes up during a competition. 
 

Always learning. 

[Maine Golfer]

If this happened to Tiger Woods, a bunch of fans would move the tree. 

[davep043]

7 minutes ago, Maine Golfer said:

If this happened to Tiger Woods, a bunch of fans would move the tree. 

I know you were mostly joking, but it brings up a rules issue.  Notice that I mentioned that if the tree was completely detached, its a Loose Impediment, and may be moved if possible.  However, if its not detached, and Tiger's fans moved it at his request, he's violated 8.1 for improving the Conditions Affecting the Stroke, and gets a 2-stroke penalty.  I've seen a lot of downed trees, and its really rare for one to be completely detached.

[Mr. Bean]

4 hours ago, Colin L said:

I'd qualify that a bit.   Throughout the limited part of the golfing world I know, the UK,  hundreds  of club competitions are played weekly throughout the season by golfers who have never seen a referee on a course and never will.  It is mostly chance if there is a qualified referee in a club and even if there is  he/she won't be turning out twice a week to referee.  At my own club which is probably unusual in currently having three qualified referees,  we only cover our match play and stroke play Championships, not least because we pay our fees  to play golf!  In none of our competitions,

 

I have to say the concept of forming your own committee or 3 or 4 is just a rather fancy  justification of  "it's casual golf; do what you please."

 

I am quite sure that in any competition there is an instance organizing that competition. As that is the case there is a responsible party available and that party can be addressed with such questions.

 

Afa forming one's own committee is a standard practice on the other side of the pond. For you and me it is a very unfamiliar concept and never seen in my country. That committee of 3 or 4 has full power to make any decisions it seems fit.

[Maine Golfer]

35 minutes ago, davep043 said:

I know you were mostly joking, but it brings up a rules issue.  Notice that I mentioned that if the tree was completely detached, its a Loose Impediment, and may be moved if possible.  However, if its not detached, and Tiger's fans moved it at his request, he's violated 8.1 for improving the Conditions Affecting the Stroke, and gets a 2-stroke penalty.  I've seen a lot of downed trees, and its really rare for one to be completely detached.

I here you! Im from the land of 89 percent trees and have seen some ice storms. They almost never clearly break off! 

[double_d]

I guarantee this is wrong, but, how I see it depends on when the tree fell over:

1. You hit your ball it lands and comes to rest. Then a tree falls over and is blocking you. Move the ball no penalty.
2. The tree fell over sometime in the past, last night, last week, whatever. Then, you hit your ball and it comes to rest behind or under the tree. Play it as it lies or declare unplayable.

Needlessly strict? probably. Like I said, my interpretation is probably wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

[Colin L]

You're absolutely correct .......You're wrong . 😄  

 

You are not allowed to improve conditions which were changed after your ball came to rest if the change was caused by natural forces.  See Rule 8.1d(2)

 

Nor are you allowed to lift your ball without penalty.

Edited October 4, 2024 by Colin L

[Newby]

2 hours ago, davep043 said:

I know you were mostly joking, but it brings up a rules issue.  Notice that I mentioned that if the tree was completely detached, its a Loose Impediment, and may be moved if possible.  However, if its not detached, and Tiger's fans moved it at his request, he's violated 8.1 for improving the Conditions Affecting the Stroke, and gets a 2-stroke penalty.  I've seen a lot of downed trees, and its really rare for one to be completely detached.

There was an old decision dating back to 1913 or 1939 (I think). A fellow member lent the book to me a few years ago. Unfortunately he died a couple of months ago.

 

An elderly lady encountered a fallen tree (detached) but wasn't able to move it. She managed to enlist a number of male players who moved it sufficiently for her to be able to make a stroke.

Edited October 4, 2024 by Newby

[davep043]

1 hour ago, Newby said:

There was an old decision dating back to 1913 or 1939 (I think). A fellow member lent the book to me a few years ago. Unfortunately he died a couple of months ago.

 

An elderly lady encountered a fallen tree (detached) but wasn't able to move it. She managed to enlist a number of male players who moved it sufficiently for her to be able to make a stroke.

Yeah, a LI can be moved "in any way", which doesn't prohibit getting help.  

[Maine Golfer]

From this afternoon, was thinking about this thread. Doesn't mater the big crew you got with you, you may not move it! 

 

[Mr. Bean]

Well, that is not a fallen tree, it is a leaning tree 😁

[Shilgy]

7 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

Well, that is not a fallen tree, it is a leaning tree 😁

Learn something new every day!🧐 Must be why they call that little tower in Pisa the “leaning” tower not “fallen”.🙄

[Mr. Bean]

On 10/6/2024 at 6:30 PM, Shilgy said:

Learn something new every day!🧐 Must be why they call that little tower in Pisa the “leaning” tower not “fallen”.🙄

 

History of that tower is very interesting. It actually started to incline before it was finished. The top part of the tower was built vertically and that anomality can be seen in pictures (and on spot, of course).

 

For interested parties I recommend reading the history from e.g. wikipedia. It reveals how clever and on the other hand stupid people can be.