AimPoint and Jim Nantz

[TonyRo]

1 hour ago, PedronNiall said:

Aimpoint is the same as NBA & Soccer/Futbol players taking flops. Yep, it surely improves the outcome for those employing it and is legal, but it's obvious to anyone looking on from the outside that it takes away from the spirit of the game.

 

On top of that, humans are gonna human and certain things are going to look silly to our eyes. Aimpoint will forever be one of those things. I'm sure that even its most ardent adherents thought "WTF?" the first time they saw it. 

*To You

[RainShadow]

18 hours ago, TonyRo said:

Everyone knows the stats - all the pros miss more than you think. There are some pretty remarkable stories about those that switched to AimPoint. And let's be honest, those people using it probably wouldn't if they felt like they didn't have to. 

 

Try it yourself - walk along a line, feel the slope twice, walk back to the ball, and hold your fingers up. That's all there is to it. I just tested it on a 20 feet span in my living room, and it took me roughly 20 seconds. Anyone who takes longer than that will take a long time putting regardless, sorry to break it to you. AimPoint isn't slow - slow putters are slow.

 Yeah, I know the pros misss a lot of putts, even with their AImpoint antics. 

 I ain't playing fo millions, or even hundreds, and I can still feel the slope with my feet in half the time it takes the other 10 handicaps with Aimpoint to do their process and miss the putt.

 

[NV825]

There needs to be a shot clock on at least the greens at college and above tournaments. I don't care about what method they want to use, make it quick or receive a stroke penalty.

[GoGoErky]

10 minutes ago, NV825 said:

There needs to be a shot clock on at least the greens at college and above tournaments. I don't care about what method they want to use, make it quick or receive a stroke penalty.

Already exists. Enforced to some degree by putting groups on the clock.

 

One should read the rulebook 

[NV825]

13 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Already exists. Enforced to some degree by putting groups on the clock.

 

One should read the rulebook 

 

One should know that I'm not talking about the overall PoP, I'm talking about a legit clock for all to see with it counting down the time a player has to make their putting stroke.

[GoGoErky]

17 minutes ago, NV825 said:

 

One should know that I'm not talking about the overall PoP, I'm talking about a legit clock for all to see with it counting down the time a player has to make their putting stroke.

Thats as silly as the argument that AimPoint slows down putting. The producers move away from most golfers pre shot routines to show other shots, the chances they stay on a green and show a shot clock imo is low but also unnecessary. 
 

The PGA tour is putting on a show, everything they do is carefully planned to showcase the golfer whether it be no rough, closely mown fairways. They aren’t going to distract with a clock on the greens

Edited October 16, 2024 by GoGoErky

[NV825]

26 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Thats as silly as the argument that AimPoint slows down putting. The producers move away from most golfers pre shot routines to show other shots, the chances they stay on a green and show a shot clock imo is low but also unnecessary. 
 

The PGA tour is putting on a show, everything they do is carefully planned to showcase the golfer whether it be no rough, closely mown fairways. They aren’t going to distract with a clock on the greens

Throwing out a generalized statement of “most producers move away from pre-shot routines” doesn’t make it fact because I still see a ton of it when I watch a broadcast. Whether it’s aim point or a player taking a look at the line from every direction, the pace gets glacial at the greens. They can still do it, but it better be before the timer hits 0. 

 

MLB purists probably thought the same thing about the pitch clock but it’s really helped keep the action going in the game now.

[GoGoErky]

12 minutes ago, NV825 said:

Throwing out a generalized statement of “most producers move away from pre-shot routines” doesn’t make it fact because I still see a ton of it when I watch a broadcast. Whether it’s aim point or a player taking a look at the line from every direction, the pace gets glacial at the greens. They can still do it, but it better be before the timer hits 0. 

 

MLB purists probably thought the same thing about the pitch clock but it’s really helped keep the action going in the game now.

The PGA tour doesn’t care about any perceived pace of play issues, if they did they would be stricter with the enforcement. TV broadcasts are going to go til the scheduled broadcast end, they aren’t interested in shortening tv time. That’s less time and money for advertisements.

 

Theres also a big difference between a shot clock in basketball, a play clock in football, the pitch clock in baseball. These are teams sports. There has to be action going on to keep the attention of the audience. In golf they can just go to a different hole and show a different golfer. Theres no need to an actual clock or to pick the pace.

 

Rounds of golf aren’t any slower now than in the past, there just more access to more golfers and more of a round shown on tv. 

 

[Titleist99]

29 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

The PGA tour doesn’t care about any perceived pace of play issues, if they did they would be stricter with the enforcement. TV broadcasts are going to go til the scheduled broadcast end, they aren’t interested in shortening tv time. That’s less time and money for advertisements.

 

Theres also a big difference between a shot clock in basketball, a play clock in football, the pitch clock in baseball. These are teams sports. There has to be action going on to keep the attention of the audience. In golf they can just go to a different hole and show a different golfer. Theres no need to an actual clock or to pick the pace.

 

Rounds of golf aren’t any slower now than in the past, there just more access to more golfers and more of a round shown on tv. 

 

100%.....

 

The PGAT isn't interested in shortening the time of their television coverage. The TV time and commercial breaks were negotiated in the Media deal agreed upon in 2022-2030. That's why complaining about slow play and commercial breaks is downright foolish..... 🤣

IMO

 

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, Titleist99 said:

100%.....

 

The PGAT isn't interested in shortening the time of their television coverage. The TV time and commercial breaks were negotiated in the Media deal agreed upon in 2022-2030. That's why complaining about slow play and commercial breaks is downright foolish..... 🤣

IMO

 

Agree. There’s constant action shown throughout the broadcast. One can watch as little or as much as they want from the time they start the broadcast til the end of it. 

[southpaw72]

Aimpoint isn’t slow. Slow players are slow. It’s not that deep 

[PedronNiall]

8 hours ago, TonyRo said:

*To You

 

Nah, to a multitude of people. Vids of the aimpoint dance are treated to mocking, laughter, and derision the same way flopping vids are, though I'd say laughter is more common.

 

I don't care all that much. We already have dustbins and crutches for putters so what's a little more goofiness on the greens? My thoughts will remain as they are as to which side of sporting or athletic such things fall on. I'm sure my internal amusement won't take away from you doing you.

[Ferguson]

17 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

Aimpoint is the same as NBA & Soccer/Futbol players taking flops. Yep, it surely improves the outcome for those employing it and is legal, but it's obvious to anyone looking on from the outside that it takes away from the spirit of the game.

 

 

 

Richard Allen addresses Aimpoint in the updated version of his best seller.

 

This book is packed with life lessons on everything about golf and life. His take on marriage and golf is unique and informative. The chapter, The Two As of Golf, "attitude and aptitude" is excellent. Allen covers everything from how to greet other players to settling game disputes and even suggests how to make "getting something on the turn" a faster process. 

 

 

[Maine Golfer]

12 hours ago, southpaw72 said:

Aimpoint isn’t slow. Slow players are slow. It’s not that deep 

This

 

I refuse to play moral outrage on aimpoint 

[MtlJeff]

9 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

 

Nah, to a multitude of people. Vids of the aimpoint dance are treated to mocking, laughter, and derision the same way flopping vids are, though I'd say laughter is more common.

 

I don't care all that much. We already have dustbins and crutches for putters so what's a little more goofiness on the greens? My thoughts will remain as they are as to which side of sporting or athletic such things fall on. I'm sure my internal amusement won't take away from you doing you.

 

Yeah maybe we're alone here....but i'm not arguing whether it helps or not, or whether it slows down play or not.....one of my friends kinda does it and is a super fast player overall. He stops short of doing free-range wall squats all over the green

 

If someone who's never seen golf before turned it on to that and was like "you play this sport, that guy is walking like he's smuggling a baggie of drugs into the yard for a prison gang" you'd be like ....um nah man. I was joking. I play pickelball.

 

It looks ridiculous, that's all. Maybe it makes them better golfers. Maybe dancing like Travolta in Pulp Fiction would make me make more putts. I should definitely try

 

 

[TonyRo]

9 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

Nah, to a multitude of people.

Of course, and there is probably a majority on the other side that don't care. "Spirit of the game" were the words used in the post I quoted, which to me is some nebulous gatekeeping BS that people like to use to keep people down without any actual justification. To each their own of course, but the REALITY is that it's legal and professionals are out there to shoot better scores. One length irons, long putters, mini-drivers, AimPoint, Tour Read, Vector Putting, DECADE, who gives a damn? 

[TonyRo]

17 hours ago, RainShadow said:

I ain't playing fo millions, or even hundreds, and I can still feel the slope with my feet in half the time it takes the other 10 handicaps with Aimpoint to do their process and miss the putt.

This is part of the problem with this discussion - I think most here don't actually know the AimPoint process actually entails. You have to feel the slope in two spots and hold up your fingers behind the ball. I have posted this otherwise, but it takes me about twenty seconds. The creator of the system says it should take around that long as well - it's meant to be a quick an easy process. You can of course speed it up even faster by only taking a slope once, that's totally up to you. But slow players are slow, AimPoint is fast. 

[gvogel]

15 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

The PGA tour doesn’t care about any perceived pace of play issues, if they did they would be stricter with the enforcement. TV broadcasts are going to go til the scheduled broadcast end, they aren’t interested in shortening tv time. That’s less time and money for advertisements.

 

Theres also a big difference between a shot clock in basketball, a play clock in football, the pitch clock in baseball. These are teams sports. There has to be action going on to keep the attention of the audience. In golf they can just go to a different hole and show a different golfer. Theres no need to an actual clock or to pick the pace.

 

Rounds of golf aren’t any slower now than in the past, there just more access to more golfers and more of a round shown on tv. 

 

We don't watch golf for the show, we watch golf for the competition.  We expect adherence to rules, and in golf, a certain amount of "golf etiquette."  The more that golf turns into a show and less a competition, the easier it is to dismiss golf as a spectator sport.

 

Or have you noticed that viewership is decreasing?

[Duct Tape]

53 minutes ago, gvogel said:

We don't watch golf for the show, we watch golf for the competition.  We expect adherence to rules, and in golf, a certain amount of "golf etiquette."  The more that golf turns into a show and less a competition, the easier it is to dismiss golf as a spectator sport.

 

Or have you noticed that viewership is decreasing?

Well said GV. 
 

When I started this thread it was for two reasons. I wanted to give Jim Nantz some credit for having the balls to cover a controversial comment and actually name names via the video. I’ve been critical of him in the past, just a little too cozy with the PGAT et al and over-the-top way too many smarmy  “patron” comments at Augusta, (fully understanding it’s what ANGC expects CBS to do). I’ve even called him a sycophant . 
 

Two was my opinion of the optics of professional golfers in that video. No matter how you feel about AP it’s hard to deny that this video, among others, is an embarrassing look for pro golf. Call me an elitist (willingly accepted) but to me, and many others, golf is a game of class, integrity, grace, power, accuracy, and beauty. I’m sure some in this thread will have contrary replies to that, but we can just agree to disagree. 
 

I also firmly stand by my comments it significantly slows down pro tournament play. Again, watch the video, or just turn on any KFT or PGAT telecast. Compare it to the Euro Tour where I don’t see it as much and those pros seem to know how to play quickly and efficiently. Not to mention the huge amount of dancing around the cup and on all subsequent golfers lines. 

What you do on your own private amateur rounds is none of my concern or interest. I don’t care if you lie on the green and draw lines via your overhead drone. Doesn’t matter to me. Although I’m pretty certain your playing partners and those behind you may have a say. Not to mention the rules committee. And it’s true I’ve seen plenty of “non-ready” excruciatingly slow golfers who don’t use AP and a handful of very fast ones who do. Your call. To me this is about the pro game. 

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, gvogel said:

We don't watch golf for the show, we watch golf for the competition.  We expect adherence to rules, and in golf, a certain amount of "golf etiquette."  The more that golf turns into a show and less a competition, the easier it is to dismiss golf as a spectator sport.

 

Or have you noticed that viewership is decreasing?

Probably against my better judgment to ignore my ignore list on this one but here we go.

 

The competition is part of the show which is why they setup the course especially on the weekends to create some volatility on the leaderboard with driveable par 4s, hole locations to setup birdies.

 

AP is within the rules and doesn’t violate any etiquette. We already know you are pro golden years of golf and anything modern you are against. 
 

You keep saying viewership is decreasing but you if for the face that veiwership numbers go any tv show at any period of time has always been a misleading number as it doesn’t account for things like multiple people on a home watching the tv. For sports it doesn’t account for places like sports bars, clubhouses, etc. Also we know that more people are cutting the cord and using streaming services. So using tv viewership as some defense is not a valid position. Also if the number of eyes on the product wasn’t high the tv congrats, tour event sponsorships and advertisements would be coming down in cost not rising. The current broadcast contract that was signed in 2022 and runs through 2030 would have been for less money since we can say viewership numbers in 2022 were down.

 

those who don’t like the modern tv golf are in the minority. 

 

[GoGoErky]

23 minutes ago, Duct Tape said:

Two was my opinion of the optics of professional golfers in that video. No matter how you feel about AP it’s hard to deny that this video, among others, is an embarrassing look for pro golf. Call me an elitist (willingly accepted) but to me, and many others, golf is a game of class, integrity, grace, power, accuracy, and beauty. I’m sure some in this thread will have contrary replies to that, but we can just agree to disagree. 

To you and a very small number of viewers. The pros and those running th tour don’t care that a small group of people don’t like the looks of something. The pros are trying to win a tournament and/or finish as high as possible. 
 

Nothing in that video or any other use of aim point is a lack of class, integrity, grace, power, accuracy or beauty. Saying otherwise is just gatekeeping the game.

The game of golf is about getting the ball in the hole in as few strokes as possible by each golfer. Nothing more nothing less.

 

27 minutes ago, Duct Tape said:

I also firmly stand by my comments it significantly slows down pro tournament play. Again, watch the video, or just turn on any KFT or PGAT telecast. Compare it to the Euro Tour where I don’t see it as much and those pros seem to know how to play quickly and efficiently. Not to mention the huge amount of dancing around the cup and on all subsequent golfers lines. 

It doesn’t and again tv golf doesn’t have a pace of play issue and the broadcast time isn’t going to change based on what’s currently perceived as an issue. If you want to say something slows down the game it’s the back and forth with the caddies on decision making but imo that’s still not an issue and makes the broadcast interesting 

[GoGoErky]

31 minutes ago, Duct Tape said:

What you do on your own private amateur rounds is none of my concern or interest. I don’t care if you lie on the green and draw lines via your overhead drone. Doesn’t matter to me. Although I’m pretty certain your playing partners and those behind you may have a say. Not to mention the rules committee. And it’s true I’ve seen plenty of “non-ready” excruciatingly slow golfers who don’t use AP and a handful of very fast ones who do. Your call. To me this is about the pro game. 

And if you don’t like what you see on tv don’t watch it. Or record it and watch it later where you can fast forward through the things you don’t like 

[RainShadow]

3 hours ago, TonyRo said:

This is part of the problem with this discussion - I think most here don't actually know the AimPoint process actually entails. You have to feel the slope in two spots and hold up your fingers behind the ball. I have posted this otherwise, but it takes me about twenty seconds. The creator of the system says it should take around that long as well - it's meant to be a quick an easy process. You can of course speed it up even faster by only taking a slope once, that's totally up to you. But slow players are slow, AimPoint is fast. 

And slow players using AImpoint are even slower...

[TonyRo]

2 hours ago, RainShadow said:

And slow players using AImpoint are even slower...

People making totally unverifiable claims based on their opinion is one of the worst trends of this generation. 

[Archimedes65]

2 hours ago, RainShadow said:

And slow players using AImpoint are even slower...

 

Yeah, that’s nonsense.  It takes no more time than any other green reading technique.

 

I think a lot of people with opinions in this thread have never tried AimPoint or played with people who actually use it.

[GoGoErky]

41 minutes ago, TonyRo said:

People making totally unverifiable claims based on their opinion is one of the worst trends of this generation. 

Everyone thinks they have their own truth. Dont you know opinions are facts now 

 

 

[subrew]

I don't really care what method the player uses with regard to reading slopes, lines, lining up the ball, pre-shot routine etc.  My single biggest wish of professional golf is to implement the pace of play rules outlined in the rulebook for when a group is deemed to be out of position, for all golf, even when they are not out of position.  I.e. make the 50sec/40sec rule across the board for all pro play.  Hell, just implement it on the greens as a start and let's see how things progress.

 

If Max Homa can aimpoint express himself in less than 40 seconds, use it my man.  If Billy Ho can play sneak attack on the ball, inching up to it like a nervous teenager on a first date, use that method.  Just do it in the 50s/40s time span already laid out in the rules.  

 

I also like how some of the Korean courses/club draw a 1m circle around the hole, where you can't remark the ball.  Let's get back to tapins without an entire process of aim pointing for 2.5 minutes to stroke in a 2 footer.   

 

  

[Barfolomew]

6 hours ago, TonyRo said:

Of course, and there is probably a majority on the other side that don't care. "Spirit of the game" were the words used in the post I quoted, which to me is some nebulous gatekeeping BS that people like to use to keep people down without any actual justification. To each their own of course, but the REALITY is that it's legal and professionals are out there to shoot better scores. One length irons, long putters, mini-drivers, AimPoint, Tour Read, Vector Putting, DECADE, who gives a damn? 

 

Ya cool but not armlock putters.... ban em they're anchored and cheating 💪

[PedronNiall]

6 hours ago, TonyRo said:

Of course, and there is probably a majority on the other side that don't care. "Spirit of the game" were the words used in the post I quoted, which to me is some nebulous gatekeeping BS that people like to use to keep people down without any actual justification. To each their own of course, but the REALITY is that it's legal and professionals are out there to shoot better scores. One length irons, long putters, mini-drivers, AimPoint, Tour Read, Vector Putting, DECADE, who gives a damn? 

 

So if tomorrow the MLB said teams could trip players running between bases and no longer had to be sportsmanlike in any way you'd have trouble reconciling that isn't in the spirit of the game because it's too nebulous for you to grasp? What if the RBs said you can now spit in your competitor's putting line and all courses said wear whatever you like, no exceptions? Certainly that would be accepted under the rules and under the requirements of said courses' dress codes, but you wouldn't have trouble understanding that doesn't fit with what the majority would consider the spirit of the game, no? 

 

Be obtuse if you like and pretend you don't get what people mean by the spirit of a sport when it's brought up in good faith, that's your prerogative. If I'm going to have to hash out an essay on what that refers to just to have a discussion I'll pass.

 

It looked silly the first time I saw it and it always will. I don't see it in any way as fitting what golf is supposed to be as a sport, no dog whistles here hinting at some "back in my day" foolishness. 

[TonyRo]

32 minutes ago, subrew said:

My single biggest wish of professional golf is to implement the pace of play rules outlined in the rulebook for when a group is deemed to be out of position, for all golf, even when they are not out of position.  I.e. make the 50sec/40sec rule across the board for all pro play. 

Preach! 🙌