If your iron divots are mostly toe-heavy (toe enters the ground first), would you...

[KMeloney]

...bend your irons upright, even if your ball flight is a draw?

 

(I'm just thinking about maybe bending them up 1°, since I've never had any irons bent upright ever, and don't think I'd want to do more than that, regardless.) Yes, I understand that a proper fitting would be best -- but I'm just looking to have the idea/any philosophies kicked around right now. I've been playing these irons for @ 5 years and like them, and I'm at a 4.5 with them. 

 

I recently kicked the lie angle of my TSr3 up one setting (and moved the weight behind the toe), and I'm hitting it better than I did all year. Ironically, my big miss with the driver is a duck hook, so I was concerned about adding and draw bias by making the lie more upright -- but I think this setting maybe causes me to swing differently, and I haven't hit a duck hook since. And, clearly, the big hook is always a swing issue -- not an equipment issue. With my iron divots typically starting toe-first, I'm thinking that my ball-contact could improve; and, if so, might also allow me to put a better swing on them (and have the ball NOT draw as much).

 

Would a 1° upright bending be drastic and potentially make my draw worse? Or, do you think it'd be minor and can't hurt, and might improve my ball flight like has happened with the driver lie change (without me consciously changing my swing at all)?

[Pepperturbo]

IMO Drivers and iron lie angles are different. 

 

If I see toe heavy divots, that suggests I am too upright at impact.   Adjusting more upright would worsen the problem.  Flattening the lie or adjusting your swing are my solutions, but I could be wrong.  I am not a club fitter, builder or tinkerer, just a player who hits the ball straight.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2024 by Pepperturbo

[Pnwpingi210]

11 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

...bend your irons upright, even if your ball flight is a draw?

 

(I'm just thinking about maybe bending them up 1°, since I've never had any irons bent upright ever, and don't think I'd want to do more than that, regardless.) Yes, I understand that a proper fitting would be best -- but I'm just looking to have the idea/any philosophies kicked around right now. I've been playing these irons for @ 5 years and like them, and I'm at a 4.5 with them. 

 

I recently kicked the lie angle of my TSr3 up one setting (and moved the weight behind the toe), and I'm hitting it better than I did all year. Ironically, my big miss with the driver is a duck hook, so I was concerned about adding and draw bias by making the lie more upright -- but I think this setting maybe causes me to swing differently, and I haven't hit a duck hook since. And, clearly, the big hook is always a swing issue -- not an equipment issue. With my iron divots typically starting toe-first, I'm thinking that my ball-contact could improve; and, if so, might also allow me to put a better swing on them (and have the ball NOT draw as much).

 

Would a 1° upright bending be drastic and potentially make my draw worse? Or, do you think it'd be minor and can't hurt, and might improve my ball flight like has happened with the driver lie change (without me consciously changing my swing at all)?

How is your start line?  
 

do you hit a push draw or a pull draw?

[Stuart_G]

28 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

...bend your irons upright, even if your ball flight is a draw?

 

I wouldn't change anything based on anything about the divot - well nothing to the club.   I might use the divot to work on swing changes, but NEVER club changes.   There is nothing useful that the divot can tell you about the equipment - especially the lie angle.

 

If you're concerned about the lie angles of your clubs, stick to the best known method:

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2024 by Stuart_G

[KMeloney]

1 hour ago, Pepperturbo said:

IMO Drivers and iron lie angles are different. 

 

If I see toe heavy divots, that suggests I am too upright at impact.   Adjusting more upright would worsen the problem.  Flattening the lie or adjusting your swing are my solutions, but I could be wrong.  I am not a club fitter, builder or tinkerer, just a player who hits the ball straight.

 

I've got to believe we're talking about the same thing, but with the opposite terminology. I agree that I've likely got the shaft at impact more upright than is ideal, but that points the toe downward (and shallowing the shaft would point the toe more skyward at impact). So, when I ask about bending the clubs more "upright," I'm talking about compensating for the shaft steepness and bending the irons so the toe is more skyward/the leading edge is more level to the ground than toe-down.

 

Flattening the lies would make the irons MORE toe-down...

 

...Right?

[KMeloney]

1 hour ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

How is your start line?  
 

do you hit a push draw or a pull draw?

 Push-draw, which I can play for, and which tends to work out nicely. If I come OTT at all though, it's a straight or pull-draw.

[KMeloney]

1 hour ago, Stuart_G said:

 

I wouldn't change anything based on anything about the divot - well nothing to the club.   I might use the divot to work on swing changes, but NEVER club changes.   There is nothing useful that the divot can tell you about the equipment - especially the lie angle.

 

If you're concerned about the lie angles of your clubs, stick to the best known method:

 

 

 

Thank you, Stuart. I always value your insight.

[Wardonation]

Flatten lie angle or lengthen shaft or both

[Wardonation]

1 hour ago, Pnwpingi210 said:

How is your start line?  
 

do you hit a push draw or a pull draw?

Hey PNWPING you live in Oregon or Washington, Do we know eachother lol. DO you play PNGA events?

[Ger21]

1 hour ago, KMeloney said:

...bend your irons upright, even if your ball flight is a draw?

Absolutely. I play 2° upright, and play a draw. I don't take deep divots, but with standard lie, the toe digs deep for me. I don't find my ball flight to change much at all between standard and 2° up. And I have no trouble hitting a fade if needed.

[Pepperturbo]

3 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

 

I've got to believe we're talking about the same thing, but with the opposite terminology. I agree that I've likely got the shaft at impact more upright than is ideal, but that points the toe downward (and shallowing the shaft would point the toe more skyward at impact). So, when I ask about bending the clubs more "upright," I'm talking about compensating for the shaft steepness and bending the irons so the toe is more skyward/the leading edge is more level to the ground than toe-down.

 

Flattening the lies would make the irons MORE toe-down...

 

...Right?

I have no idea why you would attempt to compensate for your swing.

 

It's not up or down.  It's your neutral, where the club head sole is flat on the ground at setup.  Least that's how I interpret this.  Lie angle depends on your arm length and height.  Not so much your or my natural shot tendency.

 

I suggest you get checked with your irons, for lie angle.  As a reference, check out Ping's charts, they use different charts for length and lie codes, black is neutral, above is upright 1,2 or 3°; below is 1,2 or 3°  flat.

 

As for your divot, learn to read your divot.  It tells me when my swing is cattywampus needing adjustment.  Normally, my divots are scraps to turf roots, straight at the target or left at 11 o'clock vs center line.  If my divot is toe deep, my body was not optimal at impact, likely straightened up, not desired.

[KMeloney]

1 hour ago, Wardonation said:

Flatten lie angle or lengthen shaft or both

 

Why? To address the draw, or to address the toe-down divots (or both)?

[Cwebb]

I would try opening the face at address

[mogc60]

4 hours ago, KMeloney said:

...bend your irons upright, even if your ball flight is a draw?

 

(I'm just thinking about maybe bending them up 1°, since I've never had any irons bent upright ever, and don't think I'd want to do more than that, regardless.) Yes, I understand that a proper fitting would be best -- but I'm just looking to have the idea/any philosophies kicked around right now. I've been playing these irons for @ 5 years and like them, and I'm at a 4.5 with them. 

 

I recently kicked the lie angle of my TSr3 up one setting (and moved the weight behind the toe), and I'm hitting it better than I did all year. Ironically, my big miss with the driver is a duck hook, so I was concerned about adding and draw bias by making the lie more upright -- but I think this setting maybe causes me to swing differently, and I haven't hit a duck hook since. And, clearly, the big hook is always a swing issue -- not an equipment issue. With my iron divots typically starting toe-first, I'm thinking that my ball-contact could improve; and, if so, might also allow me to put a better swing on them (and have the ball NOT draw as much).

 

Would a 1° upright bending be drastic and potentially make my draw worse? Or, do you think it'd be minor and can't hurt, and might improve my ball flight like has happened with the driver lie change (without me consciously changing my swing at all)?

Let’s make this simple. Take your 7 iron and have it bent 1 up from where you are now and go hit it on grass. See if it makes a difference. If not bend it back. If you notice better contact and your flight is where you want it, bend the set accordingly. I for one do look at my divot shape and angle. If my divots were toe deep I would nudge them upright a bit. 

Edited October 18, 2024 by mogc60

[Wardonation]

1 hour ago, KMeloney said:

 

Why? To address the draw, or to address the toe-down divots (or both)?

strike location on face. The only other thing is it could be that you are using KBS TOUR shafts as they are known for this issue...

[Pnwpingi210]

4 hours ago, Wardonation said:

Hey PNWPING you live in Oregon or Washington, Do we know eachother lol. DO you play PNGA events?

I play mostly in Washington. 
 

No PNGA events for me until I hit 0-1 index.

[goin'low]

Have you tried bigger grips? It might be your hands are too active in the impact area? Just a thought 

[fixurpitch]

I’ve read through this thread with interest. KM and I share that toe down divot result. Like KM, I hit a (high) baby draw. Curious to hear where KM’s usual impact is. Mine is center-to-heal. It begs the question: leave the lie angle alone, adjust lie (up/down??), or adjust shaft length? Is chasing a square divot and center contact not achievable with some swings?

[Stuart_G]

12 hours ago, fixurpitch said:

 Is chasing a square divot and center contact not achievable with some swings?

 

For a second, forget about whether it's achievable or not.   That's not really the important point.

 

What do you hope to accomplish by getting a square divot?    Why do you think it's important?

 

FWIW, it's better to stick to focusing first and foremost on what happens right at impact and not after the ball is long gone.    And the divot is not a good or reliable indicator of what was happening at impact.   There are better and easier ways to do that.

[KMeloney]

On 10/18/2024 at 5:07 PM, Wardonation said:

strike location on face. The only other thing is it could be that you are using KBS TOUR shafts as they are known for this issue...

If I'm not center, I'm always toe-side (almost never toward the heel).

 

And I've been in Recoil Darts in this set. I've say in retrospect that my divots have always been toe-deep, regardless of shaft.

[KMeloney]

On 10/20/2024 at 6:08 AM, Stuart_G said:

 

For a second, forget about whether it's achievable or not.   That's not really the important point.

 

What do you hope to accomplish by getting a square divot?    Why do you think it's important?

 

FWIW, it's better to stick to focusing first and foremost on what happens right at impact and not after the ball is long gone.    And the divot is not a good or reliable indicator of what was happening at impact.   There are better and easier ways to do that.

Getting feedback like this was my hope in creating this thread. If I were dead-set on the idea that my divots show that I need to bend the heads upright some, I suppose I wouldn't have posted this. But I'm looking to learn.

 

For me, I assumed that a toe-first divots at least meant that I wasn't getting the most out of the iron (that I must be giving up something -- maybe distance, or direction control).

[Stuart_G]

17 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

Getting feedback like this was my hope in creating this thread. If I were dead-set on the idea that my divots show that I need to bend the heads upright some, I suppose I wouldn't have posted this. But I'm looking to learn.

 

For me, I assumed that a toe-first divots at least meant that I wasn't getting the most out of the iron (that I must be giving up something -- maybe distance, or direction control).

 

There are a lot of very common (and very old) misunderstandings being spread around about what certain aspects of the divot might mean.  So no criticism was intended.

 

Other than maybe the depth of the divot being representative of the steepness of your swing, I can't say I've seen any other of those "adages" worth paying attention to.  Especially since we have so much more accurate tools and methods to figure those things out with.

[KMeloney]

27 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

So no criticism was intended.

None taken at all!

[slytown]

1 hour ago, KMeloney said:

Getting feedback like this was my hope in creating this thread. If I were dead-set on the idea that my divots show that I need to bend the heads upright some, I suppose I wouldn't have posted this. But I'm looking to learn.

 

For me, I assumed that a toe-first divots at least meant that I wasn't getting the most out of the iron (that I must be giving up something -- maybe distance, or direction control).

 

It would be an issue if you started hitting blocks or bigger pull cuts. The toe might get excessively open in the rough if you were toe down in the extreme, but rough tends to close the clubface anyway.

 

Usually if someone is toe down they are swinging with very straight arms at impact, throwing that toe down and raising the handle at impact. Its why most club fitting recommends a general upright lie angle to correct that. A more upright fitting will minimize a slice. You can hit the center of the face fine with the tow slightly down, its just you might have some turf interaction issues.

 

Questions: What's your shaft angle at impact? Is it very vertical or closer to 45 degrees? Do you get occasional push fades in the rough or softer fairways?

 

 

[bcflyguy1]

On 10/18/2024 at 11:15 AM, KMeloney said:

...bend your irons upright, even if your ball flight is a draw?

 

(I'm just thinking about maybe bending them up 1°, since I've never had any irons bent upright ever, and don't think I'd want to do more than that, regardless.) Yes, I understand that a proper fitting would be best -- but I'm just looking to have the idea/any philosophies kicked around right now. I've been playing these irons for @ 5 years and like them, and I'm at a 4.5 with them. 

 

I recently kicked the lie angle of my TSr3 up one setting (and moved the weight behind the toe), and I'm hitting it better than I did all year. Ironically, my big miss with the driver is a duck hook, so I was concerned about adding and draw bias by making the lie more upright -- but I think this setting maybe causes me to swing differently, and I haven't hit a duck hook since. And, clearly, the big hook is always a swing issue -- not an equipment issue. With my iron divots typically starting toe-first, I'm thinking that my ball-contact could improve; and, if so, might also allow me to put a better swing on them (and have the ball NOT draw as much).

 

Would a 1° upright bending be drastic and potentially make my draw worse? Or, do you think it'd be minor and can't hurt, and might improve my ball flight like has happened with the driver lie change (without me consciously changing my swing at all)?

Lie angle isn't the cause of your iron draws, but it likely is your reaction to lie angles that are excessively flat for your delivery. Flat lie angles drive start lines that tend to be more pushy, and the natural reaction to that is to get the face closed to path which works ball back to target from that pushy start line.

To keep your iron trajectories more in front of you, two things likely need to happen. First is take your irons a bit more upright. Starting at 1* is a perfectly reasonable first adjustment. Once you get start lines closer to intended target, the next step is to narrow the gap between your club face and club path at impact. 

[KMeloney]

1 hour ago, slytown said:

 

It would be an issue if you started hitting blocks or bigger pull cuts. The toe might get excessively open in the rough if you were toe down in the extreme, but rough tends to close the clubface anyway.

 

Usually if someone is toe down they are swinging with very straight arms at impact, throwing that toe down and raising the handle at impact. Its why most club fitting recommends a general upright lie angle to correct that. A more upright fitting will minimize a slice. You can hit the center of the face fine with the tow slightly down, its just you might have some turf interaction issues.

 

Questions: What's your shaft angle at impact? Is it very vertical or closer to 45 degrees? Do you get occasional push fades in the rough or softer fairways?

 

 

I don't know my actual shaft angle, but I've been told by a buddy when I've "bailed" (EE'ed) on a shot, and so I'm quite sure that those conditions steepen the shaft and add to (or downright cause) the toe-first/deep divots.

[Cwebb]

3 hours ago, KMeloney said:

Getting feedback like this was my hope in creating this thread. If I were dead-set on the idea that my divots show that I need to bend the heads upright some, I suppose I wouldn't have posted this. But I'm looking to learn.

 

For me, I assumed that a toe-first divots at least meant that I wasn't getting the most out of the iron (that I must be giving up something -- maybe distance, or direction control).

 

Have you considered that your swing path is likely always inside-out, so that in relation to the way you currently align yourself, you must have a closed face in relation to that path in order to get the ball near the target?

 

A closed face in relation to the path, with always produce a toe heavy divot, which is the main reason that a lie board is not the best way to test for lie angles.

 

If you were to open the face at address, then take your grip, and experiment with variations of this until your flight was no longer a draw, it could show you basically how inside-out your path is,....and to what extent you would need to set your alignment left in order to play for a straight flight.  It could also greatly reduce or eliminate the toe heavy turf interaction

[KMeloney]

13 minutes ago, Cwebb said:

A closed face in relation to the path, with always produce a toe heavy divot, which is the main reason that a lie board is not the best way to test for lie angles.

I know I'm inside-out, but did not know about the path and a closed-to-path face always producing a toe-heavy divot. As a matter of fact, I still don't know why that would be. Seems to me you could still swing from the inside but with lower hands/a shallower shaft and not be toe-heavy.

[KMeloney]

Incidentally, I've seen recently where Stuart on his Skillest GoodGolfCoaching Youtube channel advocates for low hands and a cupped lead wrist through impact (at least with driver). In my mind, this goes against the idea of ulnar-deviating the wrists through impact. Believing that I ulnar-deviate through impact typically, wouldn't that be a cause of toe-heavy divots?

[Valtiel]

6 minutes ago, KMeloney said:

I know I'm inside-out, but did not know about the path and a closed-to-path face always producing a toe-heavy divot. As a matter of fact, I still don't know why that would be. Seems to me you could still swing from the inside but with lower hands/a shallower shaft and not be toe-heavy.

I'm not sure if you posted a swing video previously, but you did mention having some "across the line" issues in a previous thread. If you combine that with an inside club path, draw miss, and toe down delivery, it paints the picture of a pretty common pattern that involves some degree of managing a steeper club path coming down and likely some early extension mixed which will tend to create a delivery with a higher hand position at impact than you had at address. Some of this is fine, you'll see this to varying degrees in elite players, especially as the clubs get longer, but too much of it can be a symptom of a swing issue. It all depends on consistency and what you're managing/why you're arriving in that position.