Kostis and McCord about handicaps

[sui generis]

1 minute ago, jholz said:

And I believe the issue y'all are missing is gambling. 

We'all don't think that's relevant.

[jholz]

12 minutes ago, sui generis said:

We'all don't think that's relevant.

 

You clearly pick and choose your battles. 

 

If an issue concerning the rules - you are one of the most thoughtful, dutiful, and prolific posters on the subject. 

 

I learn something almost every time. You can cite the rules. 

 

Yet, when someone presents an alternate opinion - something without a "rule-book" - you folks seem singularly lost. 

 

Not engaging in ideas. Not parsing language. Not thinking at all, it seems. Just digging in and defending. 

 

One is left to conclude...that if information doesn't immediately support your implicit biases, you will actively, and vigorously, ignore it. 

 

 

[Pnwpingi210]

19 minutes ago, jholz said:

So darts and bowling use handicaps. Cool. 

 

Why not soccer?

 

Why not fencing?

 

Why not ski racing?

 

And I believe the issue y'all are missing is gambling. 

It exists in ski racing, its  called NASTAR.

 

We could name more sports that do handicap and we can name more sports that don’t, what is the point you are making?

[DaveLeeNC]

FWIW, chess is also sometimes  handicapped. It is pretty interesting.

 

dave

[Schulzmc]

46 minutes ago, jholz said:

Yet, when someone presents an alternate opinion - something without a "rule-book" - you folks seem singularly lost. 

 

Not engaging in ideas. Not parsing language. Not thinking at all, it seems. Just digging in and defending. 

 

You seem to be making the case that you are presenting rational arguments for discussion and debate. But then you say things like:

 

2 hours ago, jholz said:

 

I understand. My basic position is this:

 

I think golf handicaps are ridiculous. 

 

I think handicapped golf competitions are ridiculous. 

 

I think anyone who finds joy or satisfaction in winning a handicapped golf competition is ridiculous.

 

Do you at least see the irony? How can we engage on this when that is your opinion?

[Ty_Webb]

Handicaps get used all the time to make a game without any gambling going on. It enables me to have a competitive game with my dad when I'm significantly better than he is. The winner is the person who played the best relative to how they usually play. The handicapping system is one of the best things about golf IMO. A good tennis player and a bad tennis player can never have a competitive game with each other. Someone who can't break 90 can play a match against Jon Rahm and, if they get the handicapping right, then can have a competitive match. That's true whether or not there is any money involved.

 

In the UK, I'd say something like 80-90% of golf competition is played by handicap. The US tends to flight people by handicap, but play scratch within flights. 

 

If you don't like handicaps, don't use them, but leave the rest of us who enjoy being able to compete with people with different levels of ability on a relatively level playing field be.

[betarhoalphadelta]

Allow me to play debate mediator, because I think all of us and @jholz are merely talking past each other, because we're talking about very different things. 

 

JHolz is talking about the sport of golf. Most of us are talking about the game of golf. IMHO there's a very big distinction. 

 

In sport, the idea of lowest score (gross) always wins is the only thing that makes sense. You're either better than someone else on the course or you're not. Whether it's the PGA Tour, mini-tours, national Open championships, amateur championships, etc... They're all gross. Because they're designed to be entered by people who think of their golf game as their sport. 

 

The same would be true of bowling or darts. I don't think the PBA or whatever organization sanctions professional dart play are involving handicaps. While it seems silly to think of bowling or darts as a "sport", at that level it is competed as if it is a sport. 

 

If you're playing a game, enjoyment is the goal. Competition within that arena can be used to increase interest, and thereby increase enjoyment. Competition in gross score between a +2 and a 22 won't really be enjoyable. And a 22 won't agree to a competition worth anything of value against the +2 because, well, there's no point. So one of those things that can increase the interest and enjoyment of the game is not available. And given that enjoyment is the goal, adding something like handicapping is a way to maximize enjoyment of the game by all participants. 

 

The same is true in bowling or darts. If I'm hanging with my buddy at the bowling alley and I ask him, "hey, whoever scores lower in the next game buys the next round, cool?" Well, if I on average score 35 points higher than him, he might say, "that's not a competition--I'm gonna lose." And I might reply "what if I spot you 30 points? Fair?" And now we have enjoyment, because we handicapped the competition. 

 

That IMHO is it in a nutshell. In serious sporting competition, handicaps don't have a place. But most of us are not serious sporting competitors when we step on the course. We're playing a game. 

 

So @jholz, you ask what is the purpose of handicapping? It's to increase interest and enjoyment for those of us who play the game of golf. Maybe you don't believe that has a place in the sport of golf, and maybe you're right. That's a different debate. But we should all acknowledge that we're talking about two different things, and if we want to talk about the sport of golf, we should all be on the same page. Because I don't think we are, right now. 

[Pnwpingi210]

7 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

Allow me to play debate mediator, because I think all of us and @jholz are merely talking past each other, because we're talking about very different things. 

 

JHolz is talking about the sport of golf. Most of us are talking about the game of golf. IMHO there's a very big distinction. 

 

In sport, the idea of lowest score (gross) always wins is the only thing that makes sense. You're either better than someone else on the course or you're not. Whether it's the PGA Tour, mini-tours, national Open championships, amateur championships, etc... They're all gross. Because they're designed to be entered by people who think of their golf game as their sport. 

 

The same would be true of bowling or darts. I don't think the PBA or whatever organization sanctions professional dart play are involving handicaps. While it seems silly to think of bowling or darts as a "sport", at that level it is competed as if it is a sport. 

 

If you're playing a game, enjoyment is the goal. Competition within that arena can be used to increase interest, and thereby increase enjoyment. Competition in gross score between a +2 and a 22 won't really be enjoyable. And a 22 won't agree to a competition worth anything of value against the +2 because, well, there's no point. So one of those things that can increase the interest and enjoyment of the game is not available. And given that enjoyment is the goal, adding something like handicapping is a way to maximize enjoyment of the game by all participants. 

 

The same is true in bowling or darts. If I'm hanging with my buddy at the bowling alley and I ask him, "hey, whoever scores lower in the next game buys the next round, cool?" Well, if I on average score 35 points higher than him, he might say, "that's not a competition--I'm gonna lose." And I might reply "what if I spot you 30 points? Fair?" And now we have enjoyment, because we handicapped the competition. 

 

That IMHO is it in a nutshell. In serious sporting competition, handicaps don't have a place. But most of us are not serious sporting competitors when we step on the course. We're playing a game. 

 

So @jholz, you ask what is the purpose of handicapping? It's to increase interest and enjoyment for those of us who play the game of golf. Maybe you don't believe that has a place in the sport of golf, and maybe you're right. That's a different debate. But we should all acknowledge that we're talking about two different things, and if we want to talk about the sport of golf, we should all be on the same page. Because I don't think we are, right now. 

This is a reasonable take.  
 

I don’t think anyone disagrees the gross performance determines the better golfer.   The game of golf helps us determine who played better that day, relatively to their potential (demonstrated or expected - whatever word is being used now).
 

What some of were disagreeing with, or atleast trying to understand why and what evidence he has to support, is why he feels that the handicap system was created by rich folks.  

[NorthTexasGlfr]

4 hours ago, jholz said:

So darts and bowling use handicaps. Cool. 

 

Why not soccer?

 

Why not fencing?

 

Why not ski racing?

 

And I believe the issue y'all are missing is gambling. 

 

Handicapping seems to exist at the highest level of golf, i.e. the PGA Tour, at the year end championship no less. 

 

The Tour Championship features a strokes-based system (FedEx Cup Starting Strokes) instituted for the first time in 2019. The FedEx Cup points leader after the first two Playoffs events begins the Tour Championship at 10-under par. The No. 2 player will start at 8 under. The No. 3 player starts at 7 under; the No. 4 player starts at 6 under; the No. 5 player starts at 5 under. Players 6–10 start at 4 under; players 11–15 start at 3 under; players 16–20 start at 2 under; players 21–25 start at 1 under; and players 26–30 start at even par.^[7] At the Tour Championship, the player with the lowest aggregate score over 72 holes when combined with his FedEx Cup Starting Strokes wins the Tour Championship and is also crowned FedEx Cup champion. The Tour Championship win is considered an official victory and the FedEx Cup champion also earns a bonus of $25 million and a five-year PGA Tour exemption.

[sui generis]

27 minutes ago, NorthTexasGlfr said:

Handicapping seems to exist at the highest level of golf, i.e. the PGA Tour, at the year end championship no less. 

 

I'm in the camp that thinks that the PGA Tour is only a TV show; just another reality TV circus. I've never thought what they do or don't do should affect our golf. 😉

[bluedot]

Any age grouping in any sport is a form of handicapping.

 

Any classification of school athletic teams by the size of the school is a form of handicapping.

 

Weight classes in boxing, wrestling, and youth football are forms of handicapping.

 

Different softball leagues have all sorts of different rules to limit HRs, which is a form of handicapping.

 

In professional sports leagues, typically the teams with the worst records draft first, which is a form of handicapping.  There are also salary caps, luxury taxes, etc, which is a form of handicapping.

 

In European soccer leagues, teams that perform poorly are relegated, and teams that play well move up, which is a form of handicapping.

 

I think it is safe to say that there are far, far more sports with devices to try to insure fair competition than not.  It would be silly, not to mention factually incorrect, to argue otherwise.

 

 

[Augster]

8 hours ago, mshills said:

That is all I needed. Carry on, I’m out, we will never understand each other on this topic. 

100%
 

The handicap system is a major factor in what makes golf the greatest game. 

[lchang]

18 hours ago, Augster said:

Weirdly, one time I told my friend I’m a way better golfer than he is. I’m a 5 he’s a 21. He almost flipped out. Not to the point of playing me straight up, but he was pissed for a while. 

 

This is indeed weird!! I wonder what was going on in his head?

 

OP here and safe to say, I wasn't expecting the thread to have gone the way it has!!

[DaveLeeNC]

3 hours ago, NorthTexasGlfr said:

The Tour Championship features a strokes-based system (FedEx Cup Starting Strokes) instituted for the first time in 2019. The FedEx Cup points leader after the first two Playoffs events begins the Tour Championship at 10-under par....

 

I would have to say that this is more of a 'anti-handicap system' where an advantage is granted to the players who have performed the best over some period of time (as opposed to a traditional handicap system where an advantage is granted to the lesser performing players).

 

dave

[dan360]

I like drag racing.  Part of some classes is bracket racing.   Cars run a solo run and that time is their "dial in"

 

It is calculated as a "handicap" against other cars.  So if a 10 second car races a 14 second car, the 14 second car leaves 4 seconds before the 10 second car leaves.  The idea is to, in theory, have them hit the finish line at the exact same time, all things equal.

 

So, the driver and car as a package that is consistent enough, with all variables in play, to run closest to their "dial in" number without going too fast, is going to win, regardless of how fast or slow they are, objectively. 

 

If they run faster than their dial in number, they "break out" of their bracket and lose.  If both cars break out, the one who broke out the worst loses.

 

Sandbaggers are stuck with a 14 second car, all weekend long.  They can't magically run 10.90 and win everything. 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2024 by dan360