Adapter setting effect on soled club

[Kwheat]

Maybe stupid question, but I've seen the answers on how an adapter, especially a TM or ping, work when you sole the club.  Bring it back to square and then you will get the desired loft/lie stated.

 

But what if you don't bring it back to square?  I like an open face driver by 1 tick on my TM Qi10 both for face angle visual and angle of club shaft relative to head visual.  Doesn't this mean that I'm actually adding loft + face angle by soling the club?    It's the same as laying open or hooding a wedge right?

Edited November 5, 2024 by Kwheat

[MFBach]

As far as static loft is concerned, yes. If you don’t square the club head at address after making an adjustment, in this case, you’re playing a driver with an open face and more measured loft at address. 

[Stuart_G]

7 hours ago, Kwheat said:

Maybe stupid question, but I've seen the answers on how an adapter, especially a TM or ping, work when you sole the club.  Bring it back to square and then you will get the desired loft/lie stated.

 

But what if you don't bring it back to square?  I like an open face driver by 1 tick on my TM Qi10 both for face angle visual and angle of club shaft relative to head visual.  Doesn't this mean that I'm actually adding loft + face angle by soling the club?    It's the same as laying open or hooding a wedge right?

 

It's not the same as laying open an iron or wedge.   It's exactly the same as bending the hosel on an iron or wedge to change the loft.  

 

It's just different in the respect that an iron or wedge doesn't have a naturally soled position like the woods do.  So face angle changes on irons or wedges can generally be ignored.   But on the woods,  it will noticeably effect the face angle for most - how the club sits in it's naturally soled position.   And for some people that can play a big part in how the face is delivered into impact and therefore the shot shape control and accuracy.  For others, it might not effect anything.

 

Technically, the "loft" changes done by an adapter change the effective loft - which is the loft that's measured when the face is square to the target line.  But it does not change the static loft - which is the loft measured when the shaft is in it's naturally soled position (or really the loft measured w/o a shaft installed).    So what it's really doing is it opens or closes the face without changing the loft.

 

Now to the more important aspects of the question.  What will it do to the ball flight?

 

Don't overthink this.   There is too much going on in in the mind to simplify this.   Different people will react differently to the face angle change that occurs when you adjust loft with an adapter.  For some people it will work very effectively as a loft change and have little or no effect on the shot shape.  For others it might have varying influence on their shot shape control.  For those most sensitive, they can only treat the  adjustment as a face angle change and can't use it for loft.   The ONLY way to figure out where you might stand is to go play with the setting and see what happens.   You can NOT just simplify it from how you set up the club at address, that isn't a reliable way to figure it out.   So go to the range and play around with the settings.   Do NOT change what you do at address.   Just do your setup and take your address in a normal manner - and see what happens to the ball flight for different settings.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2024 by Stuart_G

[Kwheat]

2 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

Do NOT change what you do at address.   Just do your setup and take your address in a normal manner - and see what happens to the ball flight for different settings.

Thanks Stewart.  Here is what happens to me as I have tested it, which is why I ended up asking the question.  And yes to your point I do not adjust my setup, I just sole the club every time (I had also tried to bring the face back to square but not including those results here).  Fwiw my AoA is neutral, around 1-3 up, path 4-5. 

 

1. If adapter is set to max closed.  Ball goes low and left consistently.  I can barely hit a driver or 3 wood in the air in the this setting

2.  Max open.  Ball goes mid-high and starts right consistently.  Flight is not much different than 1 click open though.

Here is a recent 5 wood test- I couldn't hit the target line but can hit draw/fades with ease.  Start line was just more pushed out to the right as path was 7ish consistently 

 

 

3. One click open.  Mid-high flight fade bias by ~15 yrds for driver.  Losing a ball left is very rare.  With a fairway wood start line is a little right, I can hit draw / fades still.  

Here is another 5 wood pic.

 

4. One click closed.  Mid low flight, straightish bias with any miss bordering on unplayable low draw

5. Standard.   Mid-high flight, fade bias but the occasional draw sneaks in if I get a little stuck and over release.

 

2 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

It's exactly the same as bending the hosel on an iron or wedge to change the loft.  

I have wedges bent a degree weak and they are 100% visually slight open and launch the ball higher than before.  To clarify, are you saying that the added loft is essentially coming from the way I'm holding the shaft relative to the ball, i.e. more vertical and less covering the ball in order to maintain this new open face angle?    Because if I put the wedge back to square then the shaft will be more hooded over the ball.   

 

So if a wood is the same as the iron being bent at the hosel, the only thing really being manipulated is the shaft to head angle.  

Scenarios then would be for soling club:

1. Sole the club, but align face to target.  Impossible by definition, club would not be soled.  If face is aligned to target, the shaft angle is manipulated.  Open setting and face aligned would have shaft angle covering the ball more 

2. Sole the club but keep shaft angle the same in any setting.  Open setting would open club face heel to toe relative to target line.  Are you saying there is no change built into the adapter that adds loft here?

Edited November 5, 2024 by Kwheat

[Stuart_G]

57 minutes ago, Kwheat said:

I have wedges bent a degree weak and they are 100% visually slight open and launch the ball higher than before.  To clarify, are you saying that the added loft is essentially coming from the way I'm holding the shaft relative to the ball, i.e. more vertical and less covering the ball in order to maintain this new open face angle?

 

Well, the loft is always dependent on how you hold the shaft relative to the ball but that's true irrespective of whether it's bent or not.

 

But for the sake of the discussion - any loft spec (whether static loft or effective loft) is always measured with the shaft in a vertical plane - no forward or backward lean.   Therefore understanding how the specs change is always stated relative to that vertical shaft position.   

 

Then amount of forward / backward lean of the shaft is really a completely different and independent topic.  It's certainly important at impact but not always that important in what it's doing at address (in theoretical sense at least).   Nor does it change anything about the actual club specs.   And nothing about the adjustment forces the player to change the shaft angle.

 

The question about the effect of the face angle change is more about if there might be tendencies to rotate the shaft to open or close the face as at address as a compensation for the face angle change,  not about changing the amount of shaft lean.

 

The difference between woods and irons is that, in general, because irons do not have a stable naturally soled position, most players are used to squaring up the club as part of their setup and address.  With woods, some players do that as well but many actually use the face angle to leave the face open or closed to help them get their desired face orientation at impact - to give the desired shot shape (some do that with irons too but it doesn't seem to be as common).

 

1 hour ago, Kwheat said:

Because if I put the wedge back to square then the shaft will be more hooded over the ball.  

 

That might be the case for you and how you react to the different visual of the head relative to the shaft - but it's not something that's automatic.  That really comes from you, not the club.    If you put your mind to it, you can square the face without changing the amount of shaft lean.

 

 

57 minutes ago, Kwheat said:

So if a wood is the same as the iron being bent at the hosel, the only thing really being manipulated is the shaft to head angle. 

 

Correct.

 

 

1 hour ago, Kwheat said:

Scenarios then would be for soling club:

1. Sole the club, but align face to target.  Impossible by definition, club would not be soled.  If face is aligned to target, the shaft angle is manipulated.  Open setting and face aligned would have shaft angle covering the ball more 

2. Sole the club but keep shaft angle the same in any setting.  Open setting would open club face heel to toe relative to target line.  Are you saying there is no change built into the adapter that adds loft here?

 

There are actual lots of different possibilities with many different possible subjective influences on how the setup and address position of the club might change.   Some conscious some sub-conscious.   The tendency to change the shaft lean you mentioned earlier is one example of that.   That's why it's best not the over think it.   If you've developed a setup routine that you've been able to repeat consistently and have confidence in, don't mess with it.   You might be able to change but chances are it's going to mess with either your consistency or your confidence.  The game's hard enough, don't make it any harder than it has to be.