The WD problem

[TroyB123]

I just listened to the Driven guys recent podcast about the WD epidemic.

 

It really does seem to be getting out of control and something should be done about it.   I was looking at a tournament last weekend that my son didn't play in, but likely would have if there wasn't a conflict.   It was a smaller field of 42, with only about 30 of those JGS ranked.   I noticed a repeat WDer we know WD'd the first day after starting with 5 bogeys.   6 more were struggling and WD'd the second day.

 

With only 20 JGS ranked kids finishing, it got not adjustment.

 

There are so many problems here.

1.  The guys who did finish get their rankings tanked by playing a course that was playing tough, but not getting the benefit of adjustment due to all the poor rounds that withdrew.

 

2.  No real repercussions for the the guys who WD'd the second day except a WD on their JGS scores page.

 

3.  The guy who WD'd in the first round didn't even get his WD on his JGS.  JGS seems inconsistent about whether or not a mid first round WD gets reported or not.   I suppose it is up to the TD.

 

Injuries and illnesses happen, and that could have been the case with any one of these.   That's a problem now for people who have to WD for a legitimate reason, is that they will likely be suspected of a strategic WD.

 

This seems like it will continue to get worse as more people are thinking they should do it if everyone else is.   It is really disrupting the JGS rankings, especially in the mid-lower D1 type players.   

 

Is there anything that can be done?

[LawGenius305]

The WD problem has been around for some time.  Thankful I don't have to worry about it anymore. 

[leezer99]

There's a notorious WD'er here that recently committed to a pretty decent program (two players in the top ten of PGA Tour U). To me, it seems like the coaches don't care if their good rounds are in the mid sixties. 

[TroyB123]

21 minutes ago, leezer99 said:

There's a notorious WD'er here that recently committed to a pretty decent program (two players in the top ten of PGA Tour U). To me, it seems like the coaches don't care if their good rounds are in the mid sixties. 

That is a bit disheartening.   They won't return calls of kids shooting in the mid 60s who finish out their bad rounds and have a higher differential.

 

That seems like flawed reasoning by the coaches.   Carding some rounds in the mid 60s isn't always the hard part.   The hard part is getting the bad rounds to be 74 or 73.

[LawGenius305]

35 minutes ago, TroyB123 said:

That is a bit disheartening.   They won't return calls of kids shooting in the mid 60s who finish out their bad rounds and have a higher differential.

 

That seems like flawed reasoning by the coaches.   Carding some rounds in the mid 60s isn't always the hard part.   The hard part is getting the bad rounds to be 74 or 73.

The penalty isn't extreme enough for a WD by JGS. 

 

Maybe bring back the JWD with stipulations on how it is used?

[Happyguy]

1 hour ago, leezer99 said:

There's a notorious WD'er here that recently committed to a pretty decent program (two players in the top ten of PGA Tour U). To me, it seems like the coaches don't care if their good rounds are in the mid sixties. 

 

They Withdrew notoriously and committed to a big time program? How is that possible? I thought coaches hated WD's? Also, doesn't it affect their JGS with WD's on there? Is it a CA kid? 

[svlido]

I can't speak for junior tournaments but in my state's amateur association it's getting hard to get into the bigger tournaments, so what we've done is put guaranteed spots based on making cuts and points standings (i.e. your entry is guaranteed if you made the last cut or are high enough in points standings).  It does seem to help alleviate the WDs now that players realize that if they want spots in other events, they've got to grind out bad rounds to either make cuts or accumulate points.

 

I'm in my early 40's and I'm still competitive regionally and in some USGA events, and I will say that I absolutely hate the direction junior golf is going from this standpoint.  I played at a pretty big program and was an All-American twice, so I was around the elite players of my generation a lot.  It was very unusual in my days to see a WD on the board.  Coaches and parents wouldn't allow it.  I also think that coaches should put stock in that.  Anybody at the level I played at could go low, so the true differentiator was who could grind out a good score on a bad day.

 

Whatever they can do to limit WDs and especially kids walking off the course without being injured, would definitely be a step in the right direction.

[TroyB123]

38 minutes ago, Happyguy said:

 

They Withdrew notoriously and committed to a big time program? How is that possible? I thought coaches hated WD's? Also, doesn't it affect their JGS with WD's on there? Is it a CA kid? 

It doesn't affect it at all other showing up on their list of tournaments as a WD.

 

JGS are the ones with the power to do anything, and at very least they should count WDs as the 25% of worst scores that aren't counted.  I don't see any downside to doing that as long as they are ensuring the TDs are submitting all in round WDs.

[Tugu]

2 hours ago, leezer99 said:

There's a notorious WD'er here that recently committed to a pretty decent program (two players in the top ten of PGA Tour U). To me, it seems like the coaches don't care if their good rounds are in the mid sixties. 

This guy's the KING of the strategic WD. Not the first and won't be the last. But he certainly got bang for his buck.

[svlido]

3 hours ago, TroyB123 said:

 

Injuries and illnesses happen, and that could have been the case with any one of these.   That's a problem now for people who have to WD for a legitimate reason, is that they will likely be suspected of a strategic WD.

 

 

The Tournament Director should talk to each player who WDs, and give JWDs to the ones who have a legit reason for WDing.  I do think JWDs should be treated differently because stuff does happen.  If nothing else shame people into turning in a card.

[Tugu]

2 hours ago, TroyB123 said:

That is a bit disheartening.   They won't return calls of kids shooting in the mid 60s who finish out their bad rounds and have a higher differential.

 

That seems like flawed reasoning by the coaches.   Carding some rounds in the mid 60s isn't always the hard part.   The hard part is getting the bad rounds to be 74 or 73.

I been harping on endlessly about ALL the various ways JGS disenfranchises kids following all the positive personal behaviors inherently embedded and hoped for within the game of golf.

 

The strategic WD is but one tool in the arsenal of the parents "curating" resumes on behalf of kids. Speak to ANY college golf consulting business and they will give numerous other ways to "enhance" a child's record via JGS.

 

JGS is a system whereby there is only 2 ways to achieve a certain crazy differential, namely to play in certain events where the CCA is set near 80 or to literally stroke average 62 on supposedly "easy" courses with supposedly "weak" fields in 3/4 of the rounds played.

 

Remember that it's a system that values winning the LEAST. Let's stop worrying about WAGR and the few kids it affects and take a look in our backyard.

 

[wegobomber31]

A WD should absolutely count as a round played in the JGS calculation. That would stem at least part of the problem. 
 

I think the problem is getting worse because of the pressure put on the entire ecosystem from the roster limits and all of its ripple effects.

[TroyB123]

1 hour ago, Tugu said:

I been harping on endlessly about ALL the various ways JGS disenfranchises kids following all the positive personal behaviors inherently embedded and hoped for within the game of golf.

 

The strategic WD is but one tool in the arsenal of the parents "curating" resumes on behalf of kids. Speak to ANY college golf consulting business and they will give numerous other ways to "enhance" a child's record via JGS.

 

JGS is a system whereby there is only 2 ways to achieve a certain crazy differential, namely to play in certain events where the CCA is set near 80 or to literally stroke average 62 on supposedly "easy" courses with supposedly "weak" fields in 3/4 of the rounds played.

 

Remember that it's a system that values winning the LEAST. Let's stop worrying about WAGR and the few kids it affects and take a look in our backyard.

 

I am not buying that there is an easy way to find tournaments with an over-inflated CCA.   My son's kept a pretty busy tournament schedule of various levels from local events up to AJGA opens and a couple regional invitationals.

 

I don't know of any tournaments that claim a set course rating close to 80, but the tournaments that we've played that have corrected up to 78 or 79 definitely deserved it.   A 76-77 at those events was every bit as tough as shooting a 70 on a sunny day at an average 72 rated course.  I don't see a problem rewarding kids for playing well on tough courses in tough conditions.   I don't really see a way to successfully game that to much degree.

 

WDing out of a bad round on the other hand feels a lot more like cheating.

Edited November 7, 2024 by TroyB123

[svlido]

1 hour ago, TroyB123 said:

I am not buying that there is an easy way to find tournaments with an over-inflated CCA.   My son's kept a pretty busy tournament schedule of various levels from local events up to AJGA opens and a couple regional invitationals.

 

I don't know of any tournaments that claim a set course rating close to 80, but the tournaments that we've played that have corrected up to 78 or 79 definitely deserved it.   A 76-77 at those events was every bit as tough as shooting a 70 on a sunny day at an average 72 rated course.  I don't see a problem rewarding kids for playing well on tough courses in tough conditions.   I don't really see a way to successfully game that to much degree.

 

WDing out of a bad round on the other hand feels a lot more like cheating.

 

I hate the WD thing, but who is really affected by the rankings being skewed?  Is it mostly the kids that aren't good enough to get serious looks from big programs or does it hurt the really good players?  It is surprising that a stud would be better off WDing to keep a higher ranking than just finish rounds out.  

[Tugu]

1 hour ago, TroyB123 said:

I am not buying that there is an easy way to find tournaments with an over-inflated CCA.   My son's kept a pretty busy tournament schedule of various levels from local events up to AJGA opens and a couple regional invitationals.

 

I don't know of any tournaments that claim a set course rating close to 80, but the tournaments that we've played that have corrected up to 78 or 79 definitely deserved it.   A 76-77 at those events was every bit as tough as shooting a 70 on a sunny day at an average 72 rated course.  I don't see a problem rewarding kids for playing well on tough courses in tough conditions.   I don't really see a way to successfully game that to much degree.

 

WDing out of a bad round on the other hand feels a lot more like cheating.

The average rated 72 course will likely have a below actual par CCA of 70 (field dependent), to beat this CCA by 2 or 3 one will likely have to shoot 67 to 68. Shooting 70 will do little to advance one's standing in rankings terms.

 

Even on diabolically set up courses over extended period of time, I'd take my chances averaging 75 to 76 over continuously shooting 67 to 68 on supposedly easy set ups. 

 

Simply put, no junior averages 67 to 68 in golf that I have seen. Its really really really hard to continuously make that many birdies without bogeys. But there's plenty that can shoot +3 to +4 on tougher set ups. Again, there's no realistic way to get certain crazy differentials without the inflated CCA. Less a kid can regularly shoot -10.

 

I 100% agree with regards to the strategic WD.

Edited November 7, 2024 by Tugu

[LOB-Dwight]

Here is the WD/DQ policy for our top Jr tour that was implemented about 2 years ago. I like the suspension from the next event.  Our TD has supsended kids for cheating for the remaider of the season.  I think some of it is up to the TD to report properly to JGS.  100% agree that JGS should count a WD as a drop score.  My son has seen other kids WD midround and he's said after a couple bad rounds "I should've WD mid round like so and so"  No way that's happening.  He had to WD once from the second round of a tournament because he was puking his guts out in the hotel room--was in the top 10 after 1st round.  I took a video in case he/we needed it down the road, but this was probably 3 years ago. Of course I'm telling him you still have a couple hours before you tee off maybe you'll be fine.  He puked in the car on the way home and all day 🤪

 

No Show, Withdrawal, No Card, Justifiable Withdrawal, and Disqualification Policies:

No Show – (NS) :

• If a player does NOT show up for their 1st Round tee time, and DOES NOT properly withdraw from the event. Proper withdraw includes notifying the staff () of their withdraw BEFORE the player is suppose to tee off, before their scheduled tee time.
• If a player NO SHOWS without properly withdrawing from the event, he / she will be removed from the next event they are signed up for.

Withdrawal – Submitted for Rankings (WD):

• If a player begins a tournament and withdraws for a verified reason, such as illness, injury or other outstanding circumstance. This includes a withdraw after a few holes, or after the 1st round. The player MUST notify the staff person on site that they are withdrawing and the reason they are withdrawing. IF THE player withdraws because of poor play, or without a legitimate reason, they will be listed as a NO CARD (see below). If a player withdraws AFTER Round 1, before ROUND 2, they must still notify staff via email/ phone () that they are withdrawing and the reason for their withdraw. If the staff is NOT notified of the WD after the 1st round by the player (in-between rounds), the player could be listed as a DQ (disqualification).

Justifiable Withdrawal – Will NOT be used anymore moving forward

• Justified Withdraw (JWD) will not be used any more in events. If a player withdraws AFTER he/ she tees off, they will be listed as a WD on the results online, and the results sent to Junior Golf Scoreboard. Depending on the reason for the withdraw the player could be listed as a No Card (NC); See No Card explanation below.

No Card – Submitted for Rankings (NC):

• If a player begins the tournament, and then he/she withdraws without a good reason, such as playing poorly (good reason = illness, injury), he/ she could be listed as a No Card (NC) in the online results and the results submitted to Jr Golf Scoreboard. This includes failure to turn in a signed scorecard for a completed round (ie= walking off the course). The Player MUST notify a staff member on site that they will be withdrawing and any reason for the withdraw. If the player DOES NOT notify the staff member on site, they would be listed as a No Card (NC). Final determination on the NC will be determined by the staff.

Disqualification – Submitted for Rankings ( DQ 

if a player tees it up and commits a USGA Rules infraction during the course of play or unintentionally fails to sign a scorecard before leaving the scoring area it will be recorded as a Disqualification (DQ) and all official round scores will be submitted for the rankings. This would also include a player that finishes Round 1, and does NOT notify the staff of his intent/ reason to withdraw and does NOT show up for his/ her Round 2 tee time.

Edited November 7, 2024 by LOB-Dwight

[jholz]

This all seems like the wild west.

 

Isn't it interesting that pretty much every other organized, individual, junior sport has a unified governing body. Golf does not. 

 

With all of the interest and money surrounding the sport - and the fact that even U.S. Badminton does a better job - suggests that junior golf doesn't want organization. It actively seems to resist it. 

 

All I can do is wonder why and theorize concerning possible answers. 

Edited November 7, 2024 by jholz

[TroyB123]

7 minutes ago, Tugu said:

The average rated 72 course will likely have a below actual par CCA of 70 (field dependent), to beat this CCA by 2 or 3 one will likely have to shoot 67 to 68. Even on diabolically set up courses over extended period of time, I'd take my chances averaging 75 to 76 over averaging 67 to 68 on supposedly easy set ups. 

 

Simply put, no junior averages 67 to 68 in golf that I have seen. But there's plenty that can shoot +3 to +4 on tougher set ups. 

Are you using rated correctly?  Is it par 72, course rating 72, but gets dropped to 70?   That doesn't happen around here.

 

Our typical regional type 36 hole events are played on 6600-6700 72-73.5 rated courses.   It seems rare that they've ever got CCA'd down by even 1, but it happens and when it does, the course is usually very scorable.

 

If the course rating is 70, I am guessing it is more like 6200/6300?

 

 

[Tugu]

Just now, TroyB123 said:

Are you using rated correctly?  Is it par 72, course rating 72, but gets dropped to 70?   That doesn't happen around here.

 

Our typical regional type 36 hole events are played on 6600-6700 72-73.5 rated courses.   It seems rare that they've ever got CCA'd down by even 1, but it happens and when it does, the course is usually very scorable.

 

If the course rating is 70, I am guessing it is more like 6200/6300?

 

 

It happens in Norcal ALL THE TIME! Anyone who's aware of the system knows and cares about their kid's ranking knows not to play junior events in Norcal. Ask any of the dads, they will tell you this straight up.

[TroyB123]

1 minute ago, Tugu said:

It happens in Norcal ALL THE TIME! Anyone who's aware of the system knows and cares about their kid's ranking knows not to play junior events in Norcal. Ask any of the dads, they will tell you this straight up.

Can you link a few examples?

[Tugu]

Just take a look at JTNC and JGANC events. 

[TroyB123]

21 minutes ago, Tugu said:

Just take a look at JTNC and JGANC events. 

I looked at all the JTNC fall series events.   5 rounds got an upwards CCA adjustment and 2 rounds got lowered by 1.   That seems pretty much on average of what I'd expect a regular setup on a regional tour.

Fall Series X	71.8	71.8	6872
Fall Series IX	72.3 (74.3)	72.3 (73.3)	6587
Fall Series VIII	70.7	70.7	6569
Fall Series VII	72.6	72.6 (73.6)	6503
Fall Series VI	72.3	72.3	6714
Fall Series V	71.5	71.5 (72.5)	6443
Fall Series IV	70.1	70.1 (71.1)	6049
Fall Series III	71.6	71.6	6572
Fall Series II	71.8 (70.8)	71.8	6564
Fall Series I	73	73 (72)	6873

[Tugu]

1 hour ago, TroyB123 said:

I looked at all the JTNC fall series events.   5 rounds got an upwards CCA adjustment and 2 rounds got lowered by 1.   That seems pretty much on average of what I'd expect a regular setup on a regional tour.

 

 

Fall Series X	71.8	71.8	6872
Fall Series IX	72.3 (74.3)	72.3 (73.3)	6587
Fall Series VIII	70.7	70.7	6569
Fall Series VII	72.6	72.6 (73.6)	6503
Fall Series VI	72.3	72.3	6714
Fall Series V	71.5	71.5 (72.5)	6443
Fall Series IV	70.1	70.1 (71.1)	6049
Fall Series III	71.6	71.6	6572
Fall Series II	71.8 (70.8)	71.8	6564
Fall Series I	73	73 (72)	6873

If memory serves me right Fall Series 1 and 2 had downward revisions as well. Though overall a smallish sample, it's a good view into the state of things in Norcal as the results are skewed by Fall Series IX. That event is played on Bayonnet Blackhorse and is one of the few (along with year end events played in terrible weather and conditions) to get any kind of consistent upwards revision. Does taking out Fall Series IX still leave things where you expect them to be? 

 

Ridge Creek has been rated as low as 70 in the past. Prior to Ayden Fynaut breaking out on a bigger stage and getting a higher ranking, he shot 65/67 and really skewed things. He's the kid who shot -10 at Bayonnet whilst the next kid (Princeton 25 commit) was 10 behind. 

 

**A friend just messaged me that Ridge Creek playing 6500 was lowered to 69 from a 70 course rating for a JGANC event this past year. Make 6 birdies and no bogeys to beat the CCA by 3. Is it ever that easy to make 6 birdies?

 

***I don't have access to the data, but I'm betting that the Toyota Cup in Southern California will almost have no downward revised CCA. I'd go far as to bet they would have upwards to 2 strokes revised par.

Edited November 7, 2024 by Tugu

[TroyB123]

Anyone have some good examples of events with numerous strategic withdrawals.   I emailed the JGS guy and he is asking for examples.  I have a couple good ones, but more from other areas would definitely help.

 

Please post or DM me.

[BallsBreakFast]

Despite its arguable shortcomings, WDs is one area that WAGR does better with fair treatment as far as ranking points. The only WDs that don't show up on records are "permitted withdrawals" though I think medical emergency/injuries might warrant an exception
 

[MahalNeneng]

22 hours ago, LawGenius305 said:

The WD problem has been around for some time.  Thankful I don't have to worry about it anymore. 

u and me both

 

i can remember times walking the ropes thinking lets just get out of here, although that was when i was foreseeing a 75 on the card. Boys jgs is about as pure as it gets, good, bad and ugly. 

[MahalNeneng]

19 hours ago, svlido said:

The Tournament Director should talk to each player who WDs, and give JWDs to the ones who have a legit reason for WDing.  I do think JWDs should be treated differently because stuff does happen.  If nothing else shame people into turning in a card.

Lol the TDs wont even confront suspected cheating must less a WD. 
if they alienate a kid they dont get $ the next time. 

[leezer99]

4 minutes ago, MahalNeneng said:

Lol the TDs wont even confront suspected cheating must less a WD. 
if they alienate a kid they dont get $ the next time. 

 

I think this is also because a lot of TD's are trending younger and haven't learned how to tactfully speak to integrity. Maybe AI will fix this soon. 

[svlido]

4 hours ago, MahalNeneng said:

Lol the TDs wont even confront suspected cheating must less a WD. 
if they alienate a kid they dont get $ the next time. 

This has been an issue.  I know of a long standing TD who got booted by the board for making the right call on a ruling that a big donor didn't like.

 

I've been invited to be a Director, and I wish I would've done it now.  Fearing making appropriate decisions that donors and cheaters won't like just isn't golf.

[svlido]

3 hours ago, leezer99 said:

 

I think this is also because a lot of TD's are trending younger and haven't learned how to tactfully speak to integrity. Maybe AI will fix this soon. 

 

That is a trend.  A lot of regional associations are hiring younger Directors from the likes of the AJGA.  I'm kind of old school, so I think the perfect Tournament Director is a salty old man that has conducting a fair competition on a tough set up as his only priority.