Ray Ray's Swing Thread

[RayPlan]

Spoiler

Everything from here forward is a cautionary tale in how the inner workings of a person with ADHD (me) can cause problems and frustration by chasing novelty and mental stimulation, while genuinely trying to improve golf swing mechanics. 

 

But also, for context, the video here is what my normal swing looked like around, leading up to the same time period:

 

 

 

----------------------

I started to video my swing this year, and at some point, I started seeing this move with my driver downswing where my hands drop vertically and the shaft gets close to my trail shoulder before my body turns through impact. Video of the full swing:

 

 

I haven't really seen other swings that look like this, but I've tried to keep replicating it mainly because I like the way it looks. I recognize that's probably not a great reason to do something, but I haven't been successful finding a way to describe it or find some analysis that would tell me to stop. 

 

I'm not looking for a swing review as much as I'm curious about how to describe what I'm doing and how to think about this swing element. GIF of the specific part:

 

Am I just chasing a weird swing move for no good reason?

 

Edit:

I stopped chasing the weird swing move and started following good advice.

I love to work on my golf swing. It's a fun puzzle to work out. In the past, my efforts have not been very effective. Now I have a different mindset and it has helped.

 

 

Edited April 12 by RayPlan
Just a regular swing thread. Ignore pages 1-12

[GoGoErky]

You don’t see anything out there like that because it’s not very efficient.

 

yes your chasing a weird swing movement for no good reason.

 

 

 

 

[b.mattay]

IMO, that move is probably costing you 20+ mph of swing speed!

Edited November 29, 2024 by b.mattay

[MK7Golf21]

kind of looks like you are going pretty wide and high on the takeaway/backswing. Then dropping and driving your trail elbow, and going super external with trail arm while you hold the lag. 

Edited November 29, 2024 by MK7Golf21

[getitdaily]

There's all kind of funky going on....

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2024 by getitdaily

[RayPlan]

12 minutes ago, b.mattay said:

IMO, that move is probably costing you 20+ mph of swing speed!

Really? Combined with the other comment above, I'm curious how you can visually spot inefficiency and make an assessment like that. That's something I'm really interested in, since I'm mostly self-directed in my attempts to improve.

 

Here it is at full speed:

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2024 by RayPlan

[GoGoErky]

28 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

Really? Combined with the other comment above, I'm curious how you can visually spot inefficiency and make an assessment like that. That's something I'm really interested in, since I'm mostly self-directed in my attempts to improve.

Being that narrow is going to be slow.

 

If that type of move would creat speed anyone doing long drive or any pro would be using that narrow type of transition.

Heres the thing. We have measured data of the golf swing for both amateurs and pros. We no longer have to guess at what’s happening in the swing. Even the outliers like a furyk or Wolff still share some commonalities with the rest of the top players. There’s nothing in your setup, grip, posture or swing that is efficient.

 

you say your self directed in your attempts to improve. What swing philosophies are you using to guide your swing thoughts?
 

You say you like the look of this? What looks good to you? Why?

 

Why do you seem to disagree that it’ would cost you 20+ yards and/or that it’s an efficient swing? Who have you received analysis or what analysis have you looked at to make

you not want to stop doing this move?

Edited November 29, 2024 by GoGoErky

[glk]

For reference here is a very efficient swing at full speed and slo mo.    Maybe seeing this will enlighten you as to why it is easy to see how your motion is inefficent.  Good chance Scott has hit the ball by the time you reached top of backswing.

 

scott at 44 still swings at 119 mph, ball speed at 177 and distance of 307 on tour.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2024 by glk

[RayPlan]

 

1 hour ago, GoGoErky said:

Being that narrow is going to be slow.

 

If that type of move would creat speed anyone doing long drive or any pro would be using that narrow type of transition.

Heres the thing. We have measured data of the golf swing for both amateurs and pros. We no longer have to guess at what’s happening in the swing. Even the outliers like a furyk or Wolff still share some commonalities with the rest of the top players. There’s nothing in your setup, grip, posture or swing that is efficient.

 

you say your self directed in your attempts to improve. What swing philosophies are you using to guide your swing thoughts?
 

You say you like the look of this? What looks good to you? Why?

 

Why do you seem to disagree that it’ would cost you 20+ yards and/or that it’s an efficient swing? Who have you received analysis or what analysis have you looked at to make

you not want to stop doing this move?

I'm not disagreeing that it may be inefficient, so when I said "really?", that was earnest surprise and curiosity. I've watched countless AMG videos, and also seen a lot from Mike Malaska and Milo Lines. I've also tried to learn what I can from Monte videos, though not as much as the others.

 

I haven't always been able to translate that into good analysis of my own swing. I'm not sure I know enough about swing philosophies to say what I subscribe to, but I try to avoid gimmicky swing systems. I don't think this move looks "good" in the sense of being "correct," more that it looks interesting, but also seems better than my main fault (too steep/over the top).

 

As for narrowness, are you talking about in the downswing? Does it look like my right arm is bent so it's less than a 90 degree angle? Unfortunately I don't have a face on view of the same swing.

Edited November 29, 2024 by RayPlan

[MonteScheinblum]

That’s not a good motion to chase and you’re doing it because of 4-5 mistakes you’re making previous.  Starting with setup.

[GoGoErky]

14 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

I'm not disagreeing that it may be inefficient, so when I said "really?", that was earnest surprise and curiosity. I've watched countless AMG videos, and also seen a lot from Mike Malaska and Milo Lines. I've also tried to learn what I can from Monte videos, though not as much as the others.

So you watched some top level instructors and one of them that has tons of 3d analysis of the swing and you were surprised that a move that looks nothing like any swing they show is inefficient. 

 

16 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

I haven't always been able to translate that into good analysis of my own swing. I'm not sure I know enough about swing philosophies to say what I subscribe to, but I try to avoid gimmicky swing systems. I don't think this move looks "good" in the sense of being "correct," more that it looks interesting, but also seems better than my main fault (too steep/over the top)

You’re not the only one. The majority if golfers can’t watch YouTube or other instructional videos and translate that into their swing, some who take online lessons struggle as well. The 3 systems you mentioned above are far from gimmicky and there really aren’t to many gimmicky ones out there especially from any of the good instructors. Without seeing your over the top swing you working to get away from so can’t say it’s better or worse than that, but can say it’s not a swing I would continue pursuing if the goal is to get better. The self directed self taught approach is a road filled with many golfers who don’t get any better, give up the game or even get worse. More failed golfers than successful ones going it the alone route. It’s also the slowest path to

improvement compared to working with a good instructor. 
 

25 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

As for narrowness, are you talking about in the downswing? Does it look like my right arm is bent so it's less than a 90 degree angle? Unfortunately I don't have a face on view of the same swing.

Yes in the downswing. You go way less than 90° the opposite of every good golf swing which has the trail elbowing unfolding rather than folding 

[RayPlan]

59 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

So you watched some top level instructors and one of them that has tons of 3d analysis of the swing and you were surprised that a move that looks nothing like any swing they show is inefficient. 

 

You’re not the only one. The majority if golfers can’t watch YouTube or other instructional videos and translate that into their swing, some who take online lessons struggle as well. The 3 systems you mentioned above are far from gimmicky and there really aren’t to many gimmicky ones out there especially from any of the good instructors. Without seeing your over the top swing you working to get away from so can’t say it’s better or worse than that, but can say it’s not a swing I would continue pursuing if the goal is to get better. The self directed self taught approach is a road filled with many golfers who don’t get any better, give up the game or even get worse. More failed golfers than successful ones going it the alone route. It’s also the slowest path to

improvement compared to working with a good instructor. 
 

Yes in the downswing. You go way less than 90° the opposite of every good golf swing which has the trail elbowing unfolding rather than folding 

 

I wasn't surprised that my swing is inefficient, only that it was so easy for others to see it so quickly. The biggest reason I joined here was to learn, so I wanted to figure out where my blind spots are. I appreciate the discussion, that's what's great about forums.

 

Re: the elbow, I can't really prove this satisfactorily without a face-on view, but when I do this, the feel is that I'm unfolding my right arm (or at least keeping it from collapsing), so there might be an element of optical illusion there. One of the big things I've learned from AMG is that the static camera can lie. It may still be a bad move for other reasons (as @MonteScheinblum suggests above), but I don't think my elbow is narrowing the way it may look.

 

I'm certainly curious about where my setup is off track.

 

Here's a pair of more stock swings from me on the course, late in the rounds on both (17th and 18th holes). 

Some pro swings that I find most interesting are Cameron Champ, Brooks Koepka, Sam Horsfeld, and Kyle Knapp, so that's where I take some inspiration. Obviously I can't really compare to any of them.

Edited November 30, 2024 by RayPlan

[iacas]

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

I've watched countless AMG videos, and also seen a lot from Mike Malaska and Milo Lines.

 

I'd suggest finding one you like and going with that. A lot of what you're doing directly contradicts what AMG would have you doing, and a lot of what Milo teaches contradicts what AMG would teach, too. I guess I'd say… they're contradictory patterns.

 

That's a recipe for… what you've got there.

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

I wasn't surprised that my swing is inefficient, only that it was so easy for others to see it so quickly. The biggest reason I joined here was to learn, so I wanted to figure out where my blind spots are. I appreciate the discussion, that's what's great about forums.

It’s easy for others to see because everyone who has pointed out the inefficiencies has an understanding of the golf swing and what is correct and not correct.

 
 

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

Re: the elbow, I can't really prove this satisfactorily without a face-on view, but when I do this, the feel is that I'm unfolding my right arm (or at least keeping it from collapsing), so there might be an element of optical illusion there. One of the big things I've learned from AMG is that the static camera can lie.

It’s not unfolding either. It may not Get much narrow but it’s not working in the proper manner. The chart is near your shoulder in the downswing. 
 

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

I'm certainly curious about where my setup is off track.

standing too tall. Shoulders and hips are aligned. Shoulders way open and hips square or slightly closed with the right foot behind the left.

 

Compare your setup to any pro and see the difference. 
 

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

Here's a pair of more stock swings from me on the course, late in the rounds on both (17th and 18th holes).

 
angles aren’t great but I’m bettering the club head gets behind the hands, no pressure shift and your right hip never goes back and round. So some arm overrun, you lift up in the backswing. 
 

Because the hips worked the wrong way on the backswing your stuck on your back leg, rohht hip fires out, steep in transition and have to drop the right shoulder to shallow and try to save the shot. 

[otto6457]

Warning!!  Incoming rant:

 

Building a golf swing by watching YouTube videos is like building a house by watching people build bird houses.  You are just hoping that the 10 minute bird house building lesson you are watching applies to the house you are trying to build.  Then when you watch 10 different teacher's 10 minute bird house building lessons, and you are now building your house with diametrically different instructions.  No wonder you get a terribly built house that doesn't look like any of the bird houses that you are trying to copy.

 

With the almost endless supply of golf instruction on YouTube, why do you suppose that handicaps are still pretty much the same as they were pre YouTube?  It really is the adage that too many cooks spoil the broth.  

 

You have got to pick one voice to have in your head.  If it's a YouTube voice, unsubscribe to every other voice.  But remember, none of these teachers are giving you everything they have for free.  You are watching infomercials in hopes you will either buy their lesson bundles, or show up on their lesson tee.  They are trying to make a living here and YouTube is a great vehicle for driving customers to a product. 

 

Best advice is to find an instructor you can see in person.  If it's local that's great.  Go see them, talk to them, and see if it's a good fit.  If it's online lessons, then interview the instructor and see if your goals and their instruction are a match.  If you have to travel to find an instructor who's instruction you connect with, then make sure you can afford the commitment (both time and money) it will take to actually achieve the swing model you want to master.

 

But you really need to commit to one voice.  

 

/end rant

 

[biker74]

That swing looks so forced and contrived 

[RayPlan]

1 hour ago, otto6457 said:

Warning!!  Incoming rant:

 

Building a golf swing by watching YouTube videos is like building a house by watching people build bird houses.  You are just hoping that the 10 minute bird house building lesson you are watching applies to the house you are trying to build.  Then when you watch 10 different teacher's 10 minute bird house building lessons, and you are now building your house with diametrically different instructions.  No wonder you get a terribly built house that doesn't look like any of the bird houses that you are trying to copy.

 

With the almost endless supply of golf instruction on YouTube, why do you suppose that handicaps are still pretty much the same as they were pre YouTube?  It really is the adage that too many cooks spoil the broth.  

 

You have got to pick one voice to have in your head.  If it's a YouTube voice, unsubscribe to every other voice.  But remember, none of these teachers are giving you everything they have for free.  You are watching infomercials in hopes you will either buy their lesson bundles, or show up on their lesson tee.  They are trying to make a living here and YouTube is a great vehicle for driving customers to a product. 

 

Best advice is to find an instructor you can see in person.  If it's local that's great.  Go see them, talk to them, and see if it's a good fit.  If it's online lessons, then interview the instructor and see if your goals and their instruction are a match.  If you have to travel to find an instructor who's instruction you connect with, then make sure you can afford the commitment (both time and money) it will take to actually achieve the swing model you want to master.

 

But you really need to commit to one voice.  

 

/end rant

 

That's fair.

 

I won't pretend to be some unique figure immune to distraction and struggling to reconcile conflicting information, but I try to be more thoughtful about what I consume. I'm 35 now, but starting about a decade ago, I was reading books and trying to incorporate things like the Real Hogan's Secret, Stack and Tilt, then Rotary Swing, and none of it ever made me any better, it actually broke my swing for years. Even before all that, I had a massive slice with my driver, which gave me lots of headaches.

 

In the past year, studiously watching AMG videos and picking up knowledge of fundamental mechanics gave me a much better understanding of what happens in the swing, which made me better able to think critically while consuming content from the numerous golf content creators now out there. Now my misses tend to be low hooks instead of slices.

 

I used to just hit range balls and get frustrated about my lack of improvement. Now I can better understand the hows and whys of swing mechanics, and I play better as a result. Granted, I can only play a handful of times a year right now, but I can hit lots of mostly foam balls into a net in my yard. It's hard to justify the cost of lessons at this juncture, so self-directed is probably the best I can do at this stage of my life (married, 2 young kids).

 

This particular swing element may be a distraction, which is a relief, because it's not easy or natural. I'll definitely take @GoGoErky's suggestions and see how those treat me. I also need to figure out more consistent camera setup, since angles can make such a big difference.

[iacas]

44 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

It's hard to justify the cost of lessons at this juncture

 

How much per month do you think is "the cost of lessons" right now?

[Valtiel]

3 hours ago, RayPlan said:

 

I wasn't surprised that my swing is inefficient, only that it was so easy for others to see it so quickly. The biggest reason I joined here was to learn, so I wanted to figure out where my blind spots are. I appreciate the discussion, that's what's great about forums.

 

Re: the elbow, I can't really prove this satisfactorily without a face-on view, but when I do this, the feel is that I'm unfolding my right arm (or at least keeping it from collapsing), so there might be an element of optical illusion there. One of the big things I've learned from AMG is that the static camera can lie. It may still be a bad move for other reasons (as @MonteScheinblum suggests above), but I don't think my elbow is narrowing the way it may look.

 

I'm certainly curious about where my setup is off track.

 

Here's a pair of more stock swings from me on the course, late in the rounds on both (17th and 18th holes). 

 

Some pro swings that I find most interesting are Cameron Champ, Brooks Koepka, Sam Horsfeld, and Kyle Knapp, so that's where I take some inspiration. Obviously I can't really compare to any of them.

Thankfully these swings show us that your stock swing is far more "typical" in that it doesn't have any super exaggerated or contrived moves in it and you merely have a couple very common fundamental problems that you'd benefit greatly from focusing on. To be clear (and a little blunt) though....there is no debate about that backyard swing. There are no illusions or misinterpretations happening, it is fundamentally completely busted in ways significantly more severe than your on-course swing above and the only thing useful about it is as a model for a bunch of things *not* to do. I'll explain, and bear in mind there are two basic fundamentals that are causing most of what we're seeing here which i'll get to:



From a setup standpoint your on course swing on the left is actually pretty good, kinda Horschel-esque. Good posture, good tilts, and good alignment (shoulders a little open, not a huge issue). If you showed me just that screenshot i'd say there is a decent chance of it being a solid player. The setup on the right has none of those. Virtually no tilts in your spine or lower legs and alignment is WAY out of whack with your shoulders and feet aiming in completely different directions. Feet are aimed at the bullseye, shoulders are aimed almost *left* of the entire net. If you showed me that screenshot i'd guess it was a 25hdcp that wore that patch of dirt around the tee via the driver clanging off the ground.



In takeaway we see fundamental issues in both swings. On the left you max out your right hip really early and we see your next turn coming towards the ball. You're trying the "right hip back" move too hard and too early and it's causing you to slam into the edge of your range of motion which forces you to start swinging forward. This is very common and is a part of the first major fundamental issue in both swings which is an overall incorrect approach to both pelvic rotation and lower body sequencing. We also see the second fundamental issue which is improper use of your hands/wrists/forearms. You roll the club very open and your lead (left) wrist is very very cupped. Your right wrist meanwhile looks fairly inactive/unset which is a problem in both swings. In takeaway you have a combination of many things happening that need to be balanced, and your excessive forearm rotation and cupping of the lead wrist with an inactive trail wrist should be flipped towards having less forearm roll, a flatter left wrist, and more upward hinging of the right wrist (radial deviation). You mentioned studying AMG videos, they talk about this in their various "wrist setting" ones. 

In the swing on the right we can see several indications of how you're attempting to compensate for the flaws I just mentioned above, but you've gone about them all wrong. You've kept that excessive early right hip movement and simply broke your setup position to allow it to happen without swinging you forward. You basically slam yourself back into a more tilted position immediately in takeaway, in essence taking the one thing you were doing well (setup) and breaking to accommodate something you were doing wrong (pelvic rotation). Now unfortunately you're freed up to do a bunch of other things equally wrong which is why self diagnosis via YouTube videos and backyard swings can be so dangerous if you don't know what you're looking for. We also see you resisting some of the excessive wrist cupping, and while not as egregious as the prior, you're still only doing it half right. You've reduced the forearm roll, but the right hand is still completely in active, so here you're just swinging your arms out really far and rotating your shoulders a *ton* while your wrists and the club remain unset. This is a weak position that leads to...



....a big overrun in the backswing. Starting on the right this time we see once again how you're blowing past range of motion limitations and rotating your shoulders in excess of what appears to be 130-140*, all while the club is still pointing mostly skyward. Again this is a complete mismatch, all while you simply start standing up and losing tilts. This is almost mimicking a long drive type of move, but not in a "good" way. We also see no attempt to get your lower body shifting towards your lead side and you're extremely late as a result as you just lift up and keep stacking on your back leg.

On the left we see much more conventional issues. You set the club better here in that you aren't completely over-rotating while reaching for the sky, but you can already see the early extension starting as your pelvis starts moving forward and your head backwards. Same issue, your shift is very late and you're now attempting to setup rotation in the downswing with way too much weight on your back leg. This will cause your right hip to come forward and your spine to straighten as you're forced to lean back away from the ball the extend your arms.



This is how you arrive at the top. On the left is an ok move with the hands and arms, but we can see the effects of your lateness in lower body sequencing as you're up on both toes trying to rotate. At this point you should be already pressure in your left side, but here we see you only just starting to move there whereas pros were already there a few steps earlier. On the right we see an extreme amount of late wrist setting with all the restricted wrist movement in takeaway being forced to move here at the top. That move btw has *far* more in common with what most pros do in their initial takeaway and early parts of the backswing. Some players like the ones you mentioned (Champ, Knapp) have later wrist set like this, but critically it is *not* because they heavily restrict their wrists in takeaway. If you were thinking you're mimicking them here, especially Knapp, know that this is wrong.



Here is what your transition moves look like. Similar notes as above for the left, but on the right we see what I can only describe as an overly exaggerated and *very* bad implementation of a couple concepts you're here on YouTube, specifically "pulling the hands down" and "driving your left hip back". For the first, you mentioned being "too steep and over the top" as one of your issues and it is *very* common to misdiagnose those in the way you have here and subsequently apply the wrong fix. Your shaft plane does get steep in the downswing which we'll see later, but you are NOT over the top at all. In fact your swing is on the flatter side, it's just that the problems with how you're using your wrists + your early extension due to improper pelvic rotation are causing that steep plane. The super exaggerated "drop your hands straight down" move you're doing is the wrong fix for a problem you don't even have. Meanwhile you're also trying to open up your front hip before having ever shifted pressure towards it (again the late lower body sequencing issue) and this combined with the hand dropping move means literally everything has to grind to a hault to get to impact. I agree with the notes above about his this swing is easily 15mph+ slower than the one on the left, and to no benefit because it's just a bunch of moves that are wrong stacked together.



Into the downswing we see the steepness on the left caused by once again a return of the extreme cupping in your left wrist and the excessive "right leg forward" movement caused by your late shift starting to back you up again. On the right it looks like actively trying to pinch your own sciatic nerve while trying your hardest to *not* accelerate the club at all. You've also continued that exaggerated "left hip clearing" move which you're only actually accomplishing by "increasing" flexion in the leg which is the opposite of what pros do, because again you haven't actually shifted your pressure over there to do it right so instead you're forcing via incorrect movement. You aren't actually rotating here, you're just tilting your pelvis. Keep swinging like this with any regularity at 35 and you'll need a cane by 40.



Down into impact on the left we see the typical pattern of early extension and how it forces you to stand up and throw your arms out, and on the right we see you trying to force yourself into a "proper" impact position while sacrificing pretty much all your clubhead speed because it was gone about completely wrong:



If we look at address vs. impact here I think we can see why you're trying to do what you're doing. The amount of extension/handle raising in your course swing due to the aforementioned faults looks like it led to you attempting a bunch of exaggerated moves to get into a "good" position, but you've missed the forest for the trees here because a correct impact position is the *result* of fundamentally correct movements, not something you force with exaggerations and contortions. Both of these impact positions also ironically have exactly the same problems with your pelvic rotation, it's just hidden on the right because of how much you altered your setup position.

The silver lining here is that you're moving radically different in the "new" swing, something many people have difficulty accomplishing. The problem is it's all pointed in the wrong direction currently and you're breaking good fundamentals to serve bad ones. There isn't anything in the videos you've studied that says to do the things you're doing on the right, YouTube or otherwise. These are all bad implementations of concepts you've likely approached intuitively without an eye or the feel you need to do it right. Rewind back to the swing on the left and practice these concepts for how to properly use your wrists in takeaway while keeping an eye on their respective positions (extension/flexion/deviation), and their hip turn video as a supplemental to this:



1) Balanced setup position, hands slightly forward, back foot square, front foot slightly flared open.
2) Trail side pressure bump immediately in takeaway. This should feel like the only conscious pressure you *add* to this foot in the entire swing, everything else rotates off this.
3) Start turning against this pressure while letting your front side dip down slightly via adding flex to the front knee, effectively tilting your pelvis.
4) Continue this motion while feeling like the turn is actually tilting you back towards the target.
5) As you arrive at the top of the backswing, this tilted rotation that is tipping back towards the target should be supplemented with a little bump in that direction, one that takes you slightly forward of where you were at address.
6) Use that pressure, which should be favoring your front side now, to create rotation via extension of the left leg while the right leg, which is now becoming fairly weightless, simply goes along for the ride.

[aenemated]

I pretty much never say anything in here but this ... this looks like a culmination of all the random social media "shallowing" garbage that tries to preach going into some weird "badger stealing a potato" move that most any human can't actually do without winding up wishing they had Will Zalatorias' money for surgeons. 

 

Man, if you care enough, go find a competent instructor. You'd spend less on that a month than lost balls with ... whatever that incredible amalgamation is. 

Edited November 30, 2024 by aenemated

[RayPlan]

19 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Thankfully these swings show us that your stock swing is far more "typical" in that it doesn't have any super exaggerated or contrived moves in it and you merely have a couple very common fundamental problems that you'd benefit greatly from focusing on. To be clear (and a little blunt) though....there is no debate about that backyard swing. There are no illusions or misinterpretations happening, it is fundamentally completely busted in ways significantly more severe than your on-course swing above and the only thing useful about it is as a model for a bunch of things *not* to do. I'll explain, and bear in mind there are two basic fundamentals that are causing most of what we're seeing here which i'll get to:



From a setup standpoint your on course swing on the left is actually pretty good, kinda Horschel-esque. Good posture, good tilts, and good alignment (shoulders a little open, not a huge issue). If you showed me just that screenshot i'd say there is a decent chance of it being a solid player. The setup on the right has none of those. Virtually no tilts in your spine or lower legs and alignment is WAY out of whack with your shoulders and feet aiming in completely different directions. Feet are aimed at the bullseye, shoulders are aimed almost *left* of the entire net. If you showed me that screenshot i'd guess it was a 25hdcp that wore that patch of dirt around the tee via the driver clanging off the ground.



In takeaway we see fundamental issues in both swings. On the left you max out your right hip really early and we see your next turn coming towards the ball. You're trying the "right hip back" move too hard and too early and it's causing you to slam into the edge of your range of motion which forces you to start swinging forward. This is very common and is a part of the first major fundamental issue in both swings which is an overall incorrect approach to both pelvic rotation and lower body sequencing. We also see the second fundamental issue which is improper use of your hands/wrists/forearms. You roll the club very open and your lead (left) wrist is very very cupped. Your right wrist meanwhile looks fairly inactive/unset which is a problem in both swings. In takeaway you have a combination of many things happening that need to be balanced, and your excessive forearm rotation and cupping of the lead wrist with an inactive trail wrist should be flipped towards having less forearm roll, a flatter left wrist, and more upward hinging of the right wrist (radial deviation). You mentioned studying AMG videos, they talk about this in their various "wrist setting" ones. 

In the swing on the right we can see several indications of how you're attempting to compensate for the flaws I just mentioned above, but you've gone about them all wrong. You've kept that excessive early right hip movement and simply broke your setup position to allow it to happen without swinging you forward. You basically slam yourself back into a more tilted position immediately in takeaway, in essence taking the one thing you were doing well (setup) and breaking to accommodate something you were doing wrong (pelvic rotation). Now unfortunately you're freed up to do a bunch of other things equally wrong which is why self diagnosis via YouTube videos and backyard swings can be so dangerous if you don't know what you're looking for. We also see you resisting some of the excessive wrist cupping, and while not as egregious as the prior, you're still only doing it half right. You've reduced the forearm roll, but the right hand is still completely in active, so here you're just swinging your arms out really far and rotating your shoulders a *ton* while your wrists and the club remain unset. This is a weak position that leads to...



....a big overrun in the backswing. Starting on the right this time we see once again how you're blowing past range of motion limitations and rotating your shoulders in excess of what appears to be 130-140*, all while the club is still pointing mostly skyward. Again this is a complete mismatch, all while you simply start standing up and losing tilts. This is almost mimicking a long drive type of move, but not in a "good" way. We also see no attempt to get your lower body shifting towards your lead side and you're extremely late as a result as you just lift up and keep stacking on your back leg.

On the left we see much more conventional issues. You set the club better here in that you aren't completely over-rotating while reaching for the sky, but you can already see the early extension starting as your pelvis starts moving forward and your head backwards. Same issue, your shift is very late and you're now attempting to setup rotation in the downswing with way too much weight on your back leg. This will cause your right hip to come forward and your spine to straighten as you're forced to lean back away from the ball the extend your arms.



This is how you arrive at the top. On the left is an ok move with the hands and arms, but we can see the effects of your lateness in lower body sequencing as you're up on both toes trying to rotate. At this point you should be already pressure in your left side, but here we see you only just starting to move there whereas pros were already there a few steps earlier. On the right we see an extreme amount of late wrist setting with all the restricted wrist movement in takeaway being forced to move here at the top. That move btw has *far* more in common with what most pros do in their initial takeaway and early parts of the backswing. Some players like the ones you mentioned (Champ, Knapp) have later wrist set like this, but critically it is *not* because they heavily restrict their wrists in takeaway. If you were thinking you're mimicking them here, especially Knapp, know that this is wrong.



Here is what your transition moves look like. Similar notes as above for the left, but on the right we see what I can only describe as an overly exaggerated and *very* bad implementation of a couple concepts you're here on YouTube, specifically "pulling the hands down" and "driving your left hip back". For the first, you mentioned being "too steep and over the top" as one of your issues and it is *very* common to misdiagnose those in the way you have here and subsequently apply the wrong fix. Your shaft plane does get steep in the downswing which we'll see later, but you are NOT over the top at all. In fact your swing is on the flatter side, it's just that the problems with how you're using your wrists + your early extension due to improper pelvic rotation are causing that steep plane. The super exaggerated "drop your hands straight down" move you're doing is the wrong fix for a problem you don't even have. Meanwhile you're also trying to open up your front hip before having ever shifted pressure towards it (again the late lower body sequencing issue) and this combined with the hand dropping move means literally everything has to grind to a hault to get to impact. I agree with the notes above about his this swing is easily 15mph+ slower than the one on the left, and to no benefit because it's just a bunch of moves that are wrong stacked together.



Into the downswing we see the steepness on the left caused by once again a return of the extreme cupping in your left wrist and the excessive "right leg forward" movement caused by your late shift starting to back you up again. On the right it looks like actively trying to pinch your own sciatic nerve while trying your hardest to *not* accelerate the club at all. You've also continued that exaggerated "left hip clearing" move which you're only actually accomplishing by "increasing" flexion in the leg which is the opposite of what pros do, because again you haven't actually shifted your pressure over there to do it right so instead you're forcing via incorrect movement. You aren't actually rotating here, you're just tilting your pelvis. Keep swinging like this with any regularity at 35 and you'll need a cane by 40.



Down into impact on the left we see the typical pattern of early extension and how it forces you to stand up and throw your arms out, and on the right we see you trying to force yourself into a "proper" impact position while sacrificing pretty much all your clubhead speed because it was gone about completely wrong:



If we look at address vs. impact here I think we can see why you're trying to do what you're doing. The amount of extension/handle raising in your course swing due to the aforementioned faults looks like it led to you attempting a bunch of exaggerated moves to get into a "good" position, but you've missed the forest for the trees here because a correct impact position is the *result* of fundamentally correct movements, not something you force with exaggerations and contortions. Both of these impact positions also ironically have exactly the same problems with your pelvic rotation, it's just hidden on the right because of how much you altered your setup position.

The silver lining here is that you're moving radically different in the "new" swing, something many people have difficulty accomplishing. The problem is it's all pointed in the wrong direction currently and you're breaking good fundamentals to serve bad ones. There isn't anything in the videos you've studied that says to do the things you're doing on the right, YouTube or otherwise. These are all bad implementations of concepts you've likely approached intuitively without an eye or the feel you need to do it right. Rewind back to the swing on the left and practice these concepts for how to properly use your wrists in takeaway while keeping an eye on their respective positions (extension/flexion/deviation), and their hip turn video as a supplemental to this:



1) Balanced setup position, hands slightly forward, back foot square, front foot slightly flared open.
2) Trail side pressure bump immediately in takeaway. This should feel like the only conscious pressure you *add* to this foot in the entire swing, everything else rotates off this.
3) Start turning against this pressure while letting your front side dip down slightly via adding flex to the front knee, effectively tilting your pelvis.
4) Continue this motion while feeling like the turn is actually tilting you back towards the target.
5) As you arrive at the top of the backswing, this tilted rotation that is tipping back towards the target should be supplemented with a little bump in that direction, one that takes you slightly forward of where you were at address.
6) Use that pressure, which should be favoring your front side now, to create rotation via extension of the left leg while the right leg, which is now becoming fairly weightless, simply goes along for the ride.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate this post, because I recognize the time it must have taken to put together. It's very straightforward and easy to follow, and the side-by-side GIFs are really helpful. I've saved all of your comments/advice in my notes app on my phone, as I've been trying to digest it.

 

The AMG video link on pelvis/hip movement is especially helpful, as I can already tell the difference from getting in the correct position and trying to recreate the proper movement (no club, just in front of a mirror). The wrist video was good, too. The hip change just makes everything feel so much better -- the pressure shift is way easier.

 

With how I got here, I think my desire to keep consuming more content got the better of me, and I'd sort of forgotten what I liked so much about AMG in the first place. I also forgot a lot of things I'd previously learned, since I failed to reinforce those things while chasing other discreet flaws. I do keep notes on my swing changes and things to try, but I almost never went back and looked at older notes. I suppose that's where having a good coach/instructor would be valuable. YouTube's algorithm doesn't help either, because there's always more being pushed in front of you.

 

I am genuinely blown away at the level of individualized guidance you've provided, and the least I can do in return is take it to heart and make those needed changes. Thank you so much.

 

Edit for a question:

How do I make sure I'm properly aligning my camera for DTL view? I am really inconsistent with that, and it makes it hard to see things sometimes.

Edited December 1, 2024 by RayPlan
Added question

[RayPlan]

Hate to bump my own thread, but I also couldn't resist the urge to try out some of these pointers, even if the temp was just below 30°

 

I was mainly focused on setup and hip movement. I forgot about my right wrist, and my pressure shift left was late. Face wide open at "impact" and arms reacting toward the "ball". Shoulders and feet still pointing cross-ways, so that's some body awareness I'll need to develop.

 

 

[KMeloney]

17 hours ago, RayPlan said:

Hate to bump my own thread, but I also couldn't resist the urge to try out some of these pointers, even if the temp was just below 30°

 

 

I was mainly focused on setup and hip movement. I forgot about my right wrist, and my pressure shift left was late. Face wide open at "impact" and arms reacting toward the "ball". Shoulders and feet still pointing cross-ways, so that's some body awareness I'll need to develop.

 

 

A lot looks better in that practice swing. But you're still setting up with your shoulders pointing left. With your shoulders aimed left like that, your first move off the ball is outside. 

 

I'd get your setup squared up before you practice anything else.

[GoGoErky]

18 hours ago, RayPlan said:

Hate to bump my own thread, but I also couldn't resist the urge to try out some of these pointers, even if the temp was just below 30°

 

 

I was mainly focused on setup and hip movement. I forgot about my right wrist, and my pressure shift left was late. Face wide open at "impact" and arms reacting toward the "ball". Shoulders and feet still pointing cross-ways, so that's some body awareness I'll need to develop.

 

 

Just keep in mind evaluating a practice swing is pretty pointless because you’re not hitting a ball and seeing how the mind/body reacts to having to hit a ball and achieve an outcome

 

[GoGoErky]

32 minutes ago, cav5 said:

Actually evaluating a practice swing has many merits. You can see how you'd swing minus the result/impulse factor being there.

 

Keep making your practice swing better, then figure out the art of how to walk it into the shot. IMO relentlessly doing what your trying to do in spite of how it seems is golf in a nutshell.

Incorrect. It a non functional swing and peoples practice swings would have them hitting the ball off the planet way to the right. 
 

the result of the swing is the important part because one has to play the shot from the result of the swing 

 

I know you’ll laugh and come up with some type of rebuttal to why this is wrong even though the person in the video has decades of teaching with thousands of hours on the lesson tee working with all levels of golfers.

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6aCqfLtujL/?igsh=MTY5am55NTI1M3A0OQ==

[glk]

20 hours ago, RayPlan said:

Hate to bump my own thread, but I also couldn't resist the urge to try out some of these pointers, even if the temp was just below 30°

 

 

I was mainly focused on setup and hip movement. I forgot about my right wrist, and my pressure shift left was late. Face wide open at "impact" and arms reacting toward the "ball". Shoulders and feet still pointing cross-ways, so that's some body awareness I'll need to develop.

 

 

At least stand on level ground   Setup needs a lot more work.  
https://www.instagram.com/p/CLepiR2F026/?hl=en

 

[RayPlan]

3 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Just keep in mind evaluating a practice swing is pretty pointless because you’re not hitting a ball and seeing how the mind/body reacts to having to hit a ball and achieve an outcome

 

You're right about that, and I have to say, after trying out some of these adjustments, I have never hit one like this in my entire life.

 

 

[GoGoErky]

20 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

You're right about that, and I have to say, after trying out some of these adjustments, I have never hit one like this in my entire life.

 

 

Your posture still needs tweaking. Your hip joint should link up with your knee and ankle.

 

Not sure what you’re trying to do with the right hand grip but that needs to be revisited.

 

And looks like you are still trying to work on the backswing and transition move everyone said to abandon

Edited December 2, 2024 by GoGoErky

[MK7Golf21]

needs more cowbell

[RayPlan]

29 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

Your posture still needs tweaking. Your hip joint should link up with your knee and ankle.

 

Not sure what you’re trying to do with the right hand grip but that needs to be revisited.

 

And looks like you are still trying to work on the backswing and transition move everyone said to abandon

That post was mostly an attempt at humor, with my "tee shot". More embarrassing than a total whiff, imo.

 

But more seriously, I thought I was doing better with my posture. The camera was a little skewed, so I corrected that, and here's what it looked like on another swing (that went better).

 

Is this still wrong? I thought hip over ankle was what I was going for, with forward ankle flex. 

 

With my right hand, I thought I had it in a fairly normal strong right hand grip.

 

 

I definitely wasn't trying to do the weird arm drop move. I was actually trying to lower my arms like in this AMG video:

 

 

The "trick shot" happened quite a few swings after the one above, so it obviously got a bit misshapen.