Ray Ray's Swing Thread

[glk]

By all means continue to improve the setup and get that grip less strong and matched up better.

 

Don't know what your practice routine is but appears it is making full swings and hitting balls in your yard.    Not the best way to go about making a motion change.   First judging motion by ball flight is a poor idea - need to judge motion based on at least video evidence and some ability to understand the target motion - not on ball flight and especially if one is just raking and hitting to get into a "groove".

 

That said, a lot can be done with just the body, then things with different characteristic such as a weight, rope, swish stick, orange whip, and then the club.

 

Here is an example of such a change - just watching this and attempting to do what one sees is no guarantee that one will do the motions correctly - the player needed the feedback in real time to make corrections and better understand what was being asked - this is a general issue with video lessons (the exchange videos versus say a face time session which will still lack the hands on of an in person but is way better than just emailing videos back and forth).

 

You would benefit from attempting some of this - especially the walking drill since it forms the basis of the motion - and it is a lateral down and away push with the foot not enough that it will stop you from walking in a straight line but enough to cause a shift - the player initially takes to large a step and is reaching and not shifting.      Next he has to translate that motion into it's golf swing equivalent - and for that they use different devices.

 

As usual the video begins with an analysis that lasts for about 9 minutes before diving into the changes.

 

Edited December 11, 2024 by glk

[RayPlan]

19 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

I thin you are thinking about it wrong.

 

Regardless of how often you play you are currently working on your swing so it’s better to get an instructor now than at some time in the future.

 

I posted a setup video from Porzak. There’s going to be pressure in the balls if the feet at setup. You don’t want it too much in the heels or too much in the toes.

 

Youre going to few things that aren’t comfortable or feel strange to you because you’ve your chair been doing them incorrect for so long.

 

work on the porzak setup daily and check it constantly on video 

I watched the Porzak video after you posted it and tried it out, but it put a lot of strain on my lower back, so I may gave been doing something wrong. It feels like I have to actively keep myself from falling forward to get my hips in the right position. 

 

Taking video of drills practice setup stuff isn't something I had considered, to be honest. I would use a mirror, but video makes more sense, and I will incorporate that as a way to check and track those things.

 

16 hours ago, glk said:

By all means continue to improve the setup and get that grip less strong and matched up better.

 

Don't know what your practice routine is but appears it is making full swings and hitting balls in your yard.    Not the best way to go about making a motion change.   First judging motion by ball flight is a poor idea - need to judge motion based on at least video evidence and some ability to understand the target motion - not on ball flight and especially if one is just raking and hitting to get into a "groove".

 

That said, a lot can be done with just the body, then things with different characteristic such as a weight, rope, swish stick, orange whip, and then the club.

 

Here is an example of such a change - just watching this and attempting to do what one sees is no guarantee that one will do the motions correctly - the player needed the feedback in real time to make corrections and better understand what was being asked - this is a general issue with video lessons (the exchange videos versus say a face time session which will still lack the hands on of an in person but is way better than just emailing videos back and forth).

 

You would benefit from attempting some of this - especially the walking drill since it forms the basis of the motion - and it is a lateral down and away push with the foot not enough that it will stop you from walking in a straight line but enough to cause a shift - the player initially takes to large a step and is reaching and not shifting.      Next he has to translate that motion into it's golf swing equivalent - and for that they use different devices.

 

As usual the video begins with an analysis that lasts for about 9 minutes before diving into the changes.

 

I don't have a practice routine at the moment, it's more opportunistic. I just hadn't really thought to video myself while doing practice where I'm not swinging. The idea feels a little foreign and awkward but I can get over that.

 

I've been watching Dr. Kwon videos and trying to recreate the movements and timing around the house, or even sometimes at work (when no one is around to ask me what I'm doing). The lack of live feedback is definitely a hindrance, since I can't easily see what I'm doing while I'm doing it. I'll start taking video of myself while practicing the movement so I can see how I'm doing before taking swings.

 

The rope is a cheap training aid, too, so I'll make that investment. The weather means I won't really have as much opportunity to take full swings anyway.

 

I appreciate the advice on practice methods. Even though I've had periods in my life where I've played and practiced more, I've never approached it in a systematic or regimented way. So I had a fundamentally unsound swing, but my only attempts to improve were from trying to apply various "fixes" and hitting range balls until I got blisters (which happened more often because of poor grip). I really enjoy the more evidence-based approach to the swing that's become more prominent in recent years. AMG in particular has helped me understand a lot of nuances about the swing, even if I can't always put it into practice.

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

I watched the Porzak video after you posted it and tried it out, but it put a lot of strain on my lower back, so I may gave been doing something wrong. It feels like I have to actively keep myself from falling forward to get my hips in the right position. 

If it’s putting strain on your back and you have no back injuries there’s something you aren’t doing correctly. 
 

When do you feel like you are actively having to keep from falling over?

 

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

Taking video of drills practice setup stuff isn't something I had considered, to be honest. I would use a mirror, but video makes more sense, and I will incorporate that as a way to check and track those things.

Mirror work is good for doing certain type of drills like working on setup, ball position, some non club movement patterns.

 

When doing swing drills filming the swing is the way to go and using both dtl and face on. But even using for the other drills so you don’t have to look in a mirror which can throw things off, similar to watching the club go back in the backswing.

 

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

I don't have a practice routine at the moment, it's more opportunistic.

This is part of the issue. There has to be a plan to what your doing, but also how your doing it. Slower movements, less full swings, work on 1-2 things at a time 

 

 

 

[RayPlan]

On 12/12/2024 at 8:05 AM, GoGoErky said:

If it’s putting strain on your back and you have no back injuries there’s something you aren’t doing correctly. 
 

When do you feel like you are actively having to keep from falling over?

 

Mirror work is good for doing certain type of drills like working on setup, ball position, some non club movement patterns.

 

When doing swing drills filming the swing is the way to go and using both dtl and face on. But even using for the other drills so you don’t have to look in a mirror which can throw things off, similar to watching the club go back in the backswing.

 

This is part of the issue. There has to be a plan to what your doing, but also how your doing it. Slower movements, less full swings, work on 1-2 things at a time 

 

 

 

Fatigue is probably a better word than strain, but after trying it out more and getting a better look at my posture, I was arching my lower back. I can avoid that just by being more conscious of my pelvis angle. I can now stand with more bend and it feels balanced. Rotation feels easier, too. Not taking any swings yet. Will work up to it properly this time.

 

Edit:

 

I don't know if it's the difference between being barefoot on a hard floor and being in shoes on soft ground, but keeping a good forward bend with an actual club in my hands just seems to make my lower back get tired. Not the kind of pain associated with injuries, just muscle fatigue. I felt more stable and connected to the ground indoors, and able to reposition to relieve the pressure that causes the fatigue. I need to compare indoor and outdoor video to see what I'm doing differently.

 

Also, the weather was nice enough to hit some balls, so I couldn't help myself. I think this is looking better.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2024 by RayPlan

[RayPlan]

On 12/10/2024 at 10:07 PM, MK7Golf21 said:

 

well at least it doesn't look like he took my advice of casting the clubhead from the top. It looks like he is trying to tuck his hips and get them super close to the ball at address and cocking his wrists excessively now in the takeaway.

 

On forums people do sort of expect someone to post an updated swing looking like Adam Scott after a few tips.

 

I would tell the OP to work with someone who is qualified though and focus on that stuff if he wants to progress faster. 

I looked more at the No Turn Cast concept, and now that I understand it better, I'm going to try it out in earnest. It fits well with what I like about Malaska's teaching, which emphasizes letting the body make the necessary motions as a consequence of the hands and club instead of consciously trying to get the body to move in certain ways throughout the swing.

 

I cut this clip from a longer video because it's funny out of context, but the video is a good example of what I said above.

 

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxDNOHLzMZJzAuEdqcO809xsiKsxWZVByP?si=Dr03SizJ2_AusBQc

 

Edit:

@MK7Golf21 No Turn Cast is great. Kind of shocking how well it works.

 

7i

5i

 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2024 by RayPlan
Added swings

[Valtiel]

On 12/15/2024 at 6:38 AM, RayPlan said:

I looked more at the No Turn Cast concept, and now that I understand it better, I'm going to try it out in earnest. It fits well with what I like about Malaska's teaching, which emphasizes letting the body make the necessary motions as a consequence of the hands and club instead of consciously trying to get the body to move in certain ways throughout the swing.

 

I cut this clip from a longer video because it's funny out of context, but the video is a good example of what I said above.

 

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxDNOHLzMZJzAuEdqcO809xsiKsxWZVByP?si=Dr03SizJ2_AusBQc

 

Edit:

@MK7Golf21 No Turn Cast is great. Kind of shocking how well it works.

 

7i

 

5i

 

 

 

 

@GoGoErky mentioned my name in the other thread so I thought i'd follow up here. It's important to understand the extent to which your sequencing is off here in the way I tried to describe in my reply back on the first page.



First, that is a massive lateral shift that is likely double what it should be. It's ok to over exaggerate to get the feeling initially, but know this is way too much. To understand what you're supposed to do with your pressure at each stage of the swing is to know that there is no functional reason to shift this far, it's only creating more work. The goal is not to shift directly away from the target just to shift directly back towards it again, it's to shift only enough to create a tilted rotation that feeds back into your front side so that you can shift *away* from the ball in the downswing. Like this, which i'll reference back to later.



Because you spent so much time over-shifting in the backswing you're only just starting your rotation now and we can see you're also continuing to shift even more. An initial overshift can be saved if you immediately reverse it, but you aren't doing that here. You're now very late which will see the compounding effect of next.



Here you make your first effort to start shifting back towards your front side, but as stated it's a bit "too little too late". We can also see that said shift has brought you towards the ball a bit. This is another sign of what's to come as the purpose of shifting into your lead is to both allow that side to create rotation in the downswing and for that rotation to be *away* from the ball. Not necessarily sticking your butt way backwards or anything, but an equal and opposing force to those trying to bring you towards the ball which comes from the simple fact that you're swinging something heavy at something in front of you, pulling you forward without a counter.

Side note though, this is a decent "shallowing" move with the hands and arms. A little exaggerated, but more right than wrong. You're doing a good job of creating the steeper backswing/shallower downswing pattern, it just needs the right lower body sequencing to actually work well.



Now into your downswing we see that right hip raising and the left hip starting to work but again, late. Based on what come before this we know that there isn't enough pressure on that front side for this to continue correctly...



...which is what we see here. The left side that started moving basically stops and the right side which is where *way* too much pressure still is swings forward towards the ball. The club is on a good plane so you don't have to compensate as much, but I guarantee this causes a ton of path and low point problems on actual grass.



This gif sums up the big picture. Your rotation in the downswing was completely driven by the right side flinging out towards the ball, something enabled by the initial overshift in the backswing. Pelvic rotation is driven by wherever pressure is, so too much pressure back results in this early extension pattern. The back leg can only move forward to create rotation and to correctly rotate/pivot is to learn how that leg needs to be completely abandoned as a source of rotation in the downswing and used purely as a source of rotation in the first half of the backswing, all for the purpose of tilting back towards your front leg to use *that* for rotation. See again the linked Monte video earlier and the Adam Scott gif from my reply on Page 1.

[MK7Golf21]

On 12/15/2024 at 5:38 AM, RayPlan said:

I looked more at the No Turn Cast concept, and now that I understand it better, I'm going to try it out in earnest. It fits well with what I like about Malaska's teaching, which emphasizes letting the body make the necessary motions as a consequence of the hands and club instead of consciously trying to get the body to move in certain ways throughout the swing.

 

I cut this clip from a longer video because it's funny out of context, but the video is a good example of what I said above.

 

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxDNOHLzMZJzAuEdqcO809xsiKsxWZVByP?si=Dr03SizJ2_AusBQc

 

Edit:

@MK7Golf21 No Turn Cast is great. Kind of shocking how well it works.

 

7i

 

5i

 

 

 

 

swings looks so much better than before with the arms, like 100x better. 
 

what feelings/swing thoughts do you have now in the arms with this move? 

Edited December 18, 2024 by MK7Golf21

[RayPlan]

49 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

swings looks so much better than before with the arms, like 100x better. 
 

what feelings/swing thoughts do you have now in the arms with this move? 

Only two thoughts/feelings, which are what Monte shows/describes in this short below. Cast the left wrist to 8:00 and bow the left wrist. Dead simple.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0JZAzFzDEM?si=B7EhzHBFFKKJ2MTr

 

The amusing thing to me is that he starts by saying "once all the movements in the backswing are complete, once everything is set and done and changing direction..." About that...

 

I hadn't really solved that other stuff first. I knew it didn't look right, but I was struggling with how to get the right thought/feel on rotation, plus the shifting was way too exaggerated.

 

Re: rotation, I'm looking to implement a "knee switching" concept from an AMG video. Feels good when trying without a club, and I'm optimistic because it gets my mental focus off my hips/pelvis. Just like the NTC stuff helped move my arms without forcing positions, moving the knees takes my focus off the pelvis, but seems to result in the right movement as a reaction. Makes sense, because I don't try to directly control my pelvis in any other athletic context, it just does what it needs to. 

[RayPlan]

5 hours ago, Valtiel said:

@GoGoErky mentioned my name in the other thread so I thought i'd follow up here. It's important to understand the extent to which your sequencing is off here in the way I tried to describe in my reply back on the first page.



First, that is a massive lateral shift that is likely double what it should be. It's ok to over exaggerate to get the feeling initially, but know this is way too much. To understand what you're supposed to do with your pressure at each stage of the swing is to know that there is no functional reason to shift this far, it's only creating more work. The goal is not to shift directly away from the target just to shift directly back towards it again, it's to shift only enough to create a tilted rotation that feeds back into your front side so that you can shift *away* from the ball in the downswing. Like this, which i'll reference back to later.



Because you spent so much time over-shifting in the backswing you're only just starting your rotation now and we can see you're also continuing to shift even more. An initial overshift can be saved if you immediately reverse it, but you aren't doing that here. You're now very late which will see the compounding effect of next.



Here you make your first effort to start shifting back towards your front side, but as stated it's a bit "too little too late". We can also see that said shift has brought you towards the ball a bit. This is another sign of what's to come as the purpose of shifting into your lead is to both allow that side to create rotation in the downswing and for that rotation to be *away* from the ball. Not necessarily sticking your butt way backwards or anything, but an equal and opposing force to those trying to bring you towards the ball which comes from the simple fact that you're swinging something heavy at something in front of you, pulling you forward without a counter.

Side note though, this is a decent "shallowing" move with the hands and arms. A little exaggerated, but more right than wrong. You're doing a good job of creating the steeper backswing/shallower downswing pattern, it just needs the right lower body sequencing to actually work well.



Now into your downswing we see that right hip raising and the left hip starting to work but again, late. Based on what come before this we know that there isn't enough pressure on that front side for this to continue correctly...



...which is what we see here. The left side that started moving basically stops and the right side which is where *way* too much pressure still is swings forward towards the ball. The club is on a good plane so you don't have to compensate as much, but I guarantee this causes a ton of path and low point problems on actual grass.



This gif sums up the big picture. Your rotation in the downswing was completely driven by the right side flinging out towards the ball, something enabled by the initial overshift in the backswing. Pelvic rotation is driven by wherever pressure is, so too much pressure back results in this early extension pattern. The back leg can only move forward to create rotation and to correctly rotate/pivot is to learn how that leg needs to be completely abandoned as a source of rotation in the downswing and used purely as a source of rotation in the first half of the backswing, all for the purpose of tilting back towards your front leg to use *that* for rotation. See again the linked Monte video earlier and the Adam Scott gif from my reply on Page 1.

Thanks again for taking the time to analyze and explain. 

 

The lateral movement has been a work in progress, from starting to do it at all, to dialing in the magnitude of the shift itself. I'll keep in mind what you said about the functional purpose of the shift. That's a good insight.

 

Seems like the pelvis/hip rotation has been a constant issue, even with various changes I've made. I've combined two of your GIFs here, showing that same lower body movement. 

 

The new rotation pattern I've picked up from AMG seems promising, based on just trying it out at home and elsewhere. Obviously the test will be when I have a club in hand.

 

 

[KD1]

2 hours ago, RayPlan said:

Re: rotation, I'm looking to implement a "knee switching" concept from an AMG video. Feels good when trying without a club, and I'm optimistic because it gets my mental focus off my hips/pelvis. Just like the NTC stuff helped move my arms without forcing positions, moving the knees takes my focus off the pelvis, but seems to result in the right movement as a reaction. Makes sense, because I don't try to directly control my pelvis in any other athletic context, it just does what it needs to.

 

Here's my own take on NTC:

 

Cast A

Here's AMG describing how to set yourself up to force yourself turn correctly. In step 2 they describe properly lowering the arms. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmOac3WV9_E?si=LvgZQEBxA3VCbJ_h&t=250
Here's Eric Cogorno demonstrating an arm lowering drill. Lower the club head to the ground off your trail foot, face parallel to the target line, then turn. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKBHzviGsLo?si=lZ13QgLSP4MLuhZR&t=273
AMG's Blender Drill: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v700yk6jeaA?si=BxA9ss3j5aaAYXS8&t=314
Monte's Shoulder Spinning Steep Yanker Drill: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cp8vL5NDpGP/

Cast B

Mike Malaska's tipping the club out "Malaska Move" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKkSmqlWays?si=WaeWHj7wXKyYuy2y
Manzella talking about the modern release: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8h7TQW3sAjc?si=RU_rZyGttVLjDoUk&t=724
Manzella explaining alpha, gamam, or somethin? then actually demonstrates the ntc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdluqMX7CkU?si=ryXb7uovrTRUYfvo&t=176

 

BBG happened to put out a video on this again yesterday http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWhS2bRbc7I?si=uT8Y56g6XQI2dwqm

You can't do that Cogorno drill above, that I've likened to cast a, without rotating your butt off... may not need to think much about switching knees.

 

Edited December 18, 2024 by KD1

[Valtiel]

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

 

 

Yup that's the right idea, just with a few caveats: 

1) The ability to clear that left side is solely dependent on you getting pressure there in time.
2) It's a mixture of lateral (away from and towards the target) and depth (towards the ball and away from the ball). This gif and your previous attempts have something in common that might be a problem which is too much lateral and not enough "depth". If you look at your left leg, specifically your knee and ankle, you're banking it in towards the right leg more than it's working out and back. Watch Tiger's legs closely here and note how the left knee moves out towards the ball, then in transition the left toe is pressured which then jumps back through impact. You don't necessarily have to create that same move, but the concept is what's important. You need that pressure towards the front of your lead foot to create that movement away from the ball in the downswing. If you're mainly rolling to inside of your lead foot and then to the outside in the downswing you'll have a hard time actually creating the right move when you're faced with the forces of the club pulling you towards the ball. 
3) It's good to understand the "why" behind all of this just to serve as a "north star" so to speak. At its most simple, creating proper pelvic rotation via pressuring and clearing of the front side allows your distance from the ball to be maintained and your chest to stay down through impact. This preserves your spine angle and means that your hands/arms are more naturally thrown through the hitting area via the various rotations that happen in the downswing and a minimal amount of extra "guiding" is necessary to get the club to the ball neutrally. When the trail side creates rotation it brings you towards the ball and the cascade of problems starts.

[RayPlan]

4 hours ago, Valtiel said:

Yup that's the right idea, just with a few caveats: 

1) The ability to clear that left side is solely dependent on you getting pressure there in time.
2) It's a mixture of lateral (away from and towards the target) and depth (towards the ball and away from the ball). This gif and your previous attempts have something in common that might be a problem which is too much lateral and not enough "depth". If you look at your left leg, specifically your knee and ankle, you're banking it in towards the right leg more than it's working out and back. Watch Tiger's legs closely here and note how the left knee moves out towards the ball, then in transition the left toe is pressured which then jumps back through impact. You don't necessarily have to create that same move, but the concept is what's important. You need that pressure towards the front of your lead foot to create that movement away from the ball in the downswing. If you're mainly rolling to inside of your lead foot and then to the outside in the downswing you'll have a hard time actually creating the right move when you're faced with the forces of the club pulling you towards the ball. 
3) It's good to understand the "why" behind all of this just to serve as a "north star" so to speak. At its most simple, creating proper pelvic rotation via pressuring and clearing of the front side allows your distance from the ball to be maintained and your chest to stay down through impact. This preserves your spine angle and means that your hands/arms are more naturally thrown through the hitting area via the various rotations that happen in the downswing and a minimal amount of extra "guiding" is necessary to get the club to the ball neutrally. When the trail side creates rotation it brings you towards the ball and the cascade of problems starts.

These are great details. Getting the left knee out toward the ball and less pulled toward the right leg feels like it physically prevents me from swaying too far. And I can already feel how getting pressure on the left toes in transition is a big piece I've been missing. This is a real lightbulb moment for me.

 

The feeling is so different from before, where I couldn't fathom how to unweight my right foot, other than a huge leftward shift. This feels like I can actually make an athletic movement. I can dynamically feel the pressure well enough that I can put all my weight on my left toes and briefly lift my right foot. That's not the goal, but it gives me a new understanding of what it feels like to really push into the ground. Very cool.

 

I'm looking forward to my next practice session.

[RayPlan]

Took some swings, and the weight shift is still something to work on. If I don't concentrate, I get the big initial shift right.

 

The lower body action feels much better though, as I expected. Though I'm working on so many things at once, it's hard to execute on everything.

 

 

 

 

I do think I've identified an issue, which is related to my arms in the downswing. My right elbow looks way too far from my body as I'm rotating, which suggests to me that I'm not lowering/unfolding my arms enough. I haven't seen it, but I can imagine that Cast B from NTC addresses this. This would also seem to be where "Malaska Move" (Joe Nichols Move, as MM likes to remind people) would come in. 

 

 

The "tip out" feel would require me to get my elbow closer to my body, which would intuitively help rotation, since the club would actually catch up to my hands. My hands being away from my body probably helps explain why my rotation stalls until after impact. 

 

It occurred to me that I've been doing something very wrong when I do the swing movements in slow motion. 

 

I don't know why I got it in my head that this is what I should be doing. Note that I'm not trying to hold angles here intentionally, I think I'm just missing an element that would put me in the right position for impact. And I strongly suspect I can fix it by adding the Malaska move after the cast.

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

Took some swings, and the weight shift is still something to work on. If I don't concentrate, I get the big initial shift right.

 

The lower body action feels much better though, as I expected. Though I'm working on so many things at once, it's hard to execute on everything.

 

 

 

 

 

I do think I've identified an issue, which is related to my arms in the downswing. My right elbow looks way too far from my body as I'm rotating, which suggests to me that I'm not lowering/unfolding my arms enough. I haven't seen it, but I can imagine that Cast B from NTC addresses this. This would also seem to be where "Malaska Move" (Joe Nichols Move, as MM likes to remind people) would come in. 

 

 

The "tip out" feel would require me to get my elbow closer to my body, which would intuitively help rotation, since the club would actually catch up to my hands. My hands being away from my body probably helps explain why my rotation stalls until after impact. 

 

It occurred to me that I've been doing something very wrong when I do the swing movements in slow motion. 

 

I don't know why I got it in my head that this is what I should be doing. Note that I'm not trying to hold angles here intentionally, I think I'm just missing an element that would put me in the right position for impact. And I strongly suspect I can fix it by adding the Malaska move after the cast.

Your takeaway is playing a role in what’s happening with your downswing as is what your hips are doing.

 

your still moving way out towards the ball with the right hip and yes your not unfolding your elbow enough, if at all as you are still pretty narrow and you can see in the downswing your a little steep

with the shaft.

 

From why I see I the bodies you are just lifting your left heel up off the ground and not really turning or shifting your pressure. 

Cast A would address the unfolding of the arm.

 

[RayPlan]

On 12/10/2024 at 9:51 PM, GoGoErky said:

You need to get more left side bend and some added left knee flex to do what you want to do with the arms lowering

This thought suddenly occurred to me, so I went back because I thought it might have come up. I can see that I have almost no side bend at all, basically just tilting my entire torso. I think side bend will help with some of the weight shift and rotation, since the current movement is still awkward and disjointed. I think I got gun-shy about bending because of the "pinching [my] own sciatic nerve" comment. Here's a stupid GIF I made showing the problem, then some "simulated side bend."

 

5 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

Your takeaway is playing a role in what’s happening with your downswing as is what your hips are doing.

 

your still moving way out towards the ball with the right hip and yes your not unfolding your elbow enough, if at all as you are still pretty narrow and you can see in the downswing your a little steep

with the shaft.

 

From why I see I the bodies you are just lifting your left heel up off the ground and not really turning or shifting your pressure. 

Cast A would address the unfolding of the arm.

I'll stop being cheap and just buy the NTC videos. I like what I've seen from it so far, and I'm sure I would benefit from having the whole picture, rather than trying to piece together different methods like I suggested above. 

 

Another swing from today, after my previous post, but before your reply.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2024 by RayPlan
Added a silly GIF of simulated side bend

[GoGoErky]

1 hour ago, RayPlan said:

I'll stop being cheap and just buy the NTC videos. I like what I've seen from it so far, and I'm sure I would benefit from having the whole picture, rather than trying to piece together different methods like I suggested above.

If you do that then don’t watch any other videos and drill the wrist set and push hands to 7 a lot. If you can’t get those good then getting to top in a good position will be harder

[RayPlan]

On 12/19/2024 at 6:00 PM, GoGoErky said:

If you do that then don’t watch any other videos and drill the wrist set and push hands to 7 a lot. If you can’t get those good then getting to top in a good position will be harder

Bought it, will work on it. 

 

@MonteScheinblum I'm about to dedicate myself to NTC like a monk. Vow of silence* and all

 

 

 

 

 

*Doesn't include posting on here

Edited December 21, 2024 by RayPlan

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 12/18/2024 at 7:16 PM, RayPlan said:

These are great details. Getting the left knee out toward the ball and less pulled toward the right leg feels like it physically prevents me from swaying too far. And I can already feel how getting pressure on the left toes in transition is a big piece I've been missing. This is a real lightbulb moment for me.

 

The feeling is so different from before, where I couldn't fathom how to unweight my right foot, other than a huge leftward shift. This feels like I can actually make an athletic movement. I can dynamically feel the pressure well enough that I can put all my weight on my left toes and briefly lift my right foot. That's not the goal, but it gives me a new understanding of what it feels like to really push into the ground. Very cool.

 

I'm looking forward to my next practice session.

 

FYI I've battled the sway towards the target on the backswing and it's been quite a hard thing to beat. Note that I'm not a qualified instructor, or even a non-qualified internet layman teacher; I'm just a hack who battled the same issue.

 

For me, I really had to focus on a feeling like I'm not swaying off the ball AT ALL on the takeaway. As if I'm actively pressuring my right foot into the ground to "brace" myself to not be able to sway. And if I do that... I at least manage the sway to be a proper amount instead of an excessive amount. 

 

BTW you're going to need to start taking a lot more face-on video to checkpoint this. 

 

I think I talked about and have some video about it my swing improvement thread. But to give you an idea of the before and after, here's where I used to be at the top, and where I am now:

 

 

 

You can see in the first picture how much closer to vertical the line from my toe through my right hip is, how much my left knee is buckled away from the target, and how far my left hip is from the vertical line off my left toe. 

 

In the second picture, I probably haven't recentered quite as well as I'd like, but you can see that the line from toe through the right hip is much more slanted (due to my right hip rotating back and around), my structure of the left leg looks much better like it's ready to support the rest of my swing, and how the distance between the left hip and the vertical line is MUCH smaller. 

 

The swing thought that produced that for me was "don't sway". 

[RayPlan]

The shift toward the target continues to be my biggest challenge. And you're right that I need more face on videos. For now though, here's a good 5i from my first session after delving into NTC. And a not so good one where I almost fall over toward the net.

 

   

I reviewed the Transition segment after these and there was an aspect of "staying closed to the target" that I was missing, which was actually getting weight on the left foot toward the ball, not just toward the target. So my head could actually get closer to the ball instead of backing away, like I have a tendency to do.

 

 

Edited December 22, 2024 by RayPlan

[GoGoErky]

2 hours ago, RayPlan said:

The shift toward the target continues to be my biggest challenge. And you're right that I need more face on videos. For now though, here's a good 5i from my first session after delving into NTC. And a not so good one where I almost fall over toward the net.

 

 

   

I reviewed the Transition segment after these and there was an aspect of "staying closed to the target" that I was missing, which was actually getting weight on the left foot toward the ball, not just toward the target. So my head could actually get closer to the ball instead of backing away, like I have a tendency to do.

 

 

It’s going to take time and we see alot of your same swing in the videos and in the second one you actually roll the club behind you which wouldn’t happen if you were doing the wrist set portion of the drills properly. In the first one your top of backswing is long like your normal swing.

 

we can see that your desire to get to the end result without working on the middle steps of the process is happening. 

post videos of you doing the drills. So we can see what you are doing with them 

[RayPlan]

2 hours ago, GoGoErky said:

It’s going to take time and we see alot of your same swing in the videos and in the second one you actually roll the club behind you which wouldn’t happen if you were doing the wrist set portion of the drills properly. In the first one your top of backswing is long like your normal swing.

 

we can see that your desire to get to the end result without working on the middle steps of the process is happening. 

post videos of you doing the drills. So we can see what you are doing with them 

Some drill work. 

 

I'm a little unclear on exactly where the hub of the clock is, so I'm not sure my 7 o'clock is exactly where it's supposed to be. The overhead image shows it under his head, but the other overlays show it centered on the ball, which makes a difference.

 

Is this more like 7 o'clock below? I would love it if the answer was yes, because it feels like I'm really reaching inside to feel like I'm hitting 7.

 

 

Edit:

I also couldn't figure out why I was having trouble hinging my wrists upward, and it occurred to me just now that I was basically trying to do it mainly by pulling upward with my right, but I realized that pushing downward with my left would allow me to get more leverage and bend more.

 

I probably would have been more patient if I hadn't just finished putting up Christmas lights. I was already cold, so that didn't help. 

 

Edited December 23, 2024 by RayPlan
Dawning realizations

[RayPlan]

@GoGoErky I didn't just jump straight into full swings, to be clear. 

 

 

I hit the file size limit on the last post, hence the double post. The two swings I posted were later, after most of my swings went like this. Starting with not hitting balls.

[golferdude54]

Man, Kendall Roy is really having a midlife crisis with golf ever since he couldn't acquire Waystar.

[GoGoErky]

11 hours ago, RayPlan said:

I'm a little unclear on exactly where the hub of the clock is, so I'm not sure my 7 o'clock is exactly where it's supposed to be. The overhead image shows it under his head, but the other overlays show it centered on the ball, which makes a difference.

7 o’clock is roughly mid foot/balls of the foot.
 

A few things I notice at the start of your first video. Butt is too far back in setup. As for the drill your only hinging wrists to the point of the club being parallel to the ground. If you go back and watch the first drill Monte sets the club much higher. Your 7 isn’t too far off but hard to say because the camera angle appears to be to the right of your hands rather than on the handline.

 

Your push to 8 the arms ar below your shoulder line and you get them too deep and probably too much left side bend.

[RayPlan]

24 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

7 o’clock is roughly mid foot/balls of the foot.
 

A few things I notice at the start of your first video. Butt is too far back in setup. As for the drill your only hinging wrists to the point of the club being parallel to the ground. If you go back and watch the first drill Monte sets the club much higher. Your 7 isn’t too far off but hard to say because the camera angle appears to be to the right of your hands rather than on the handline.

 

Your push to 8 the arms ar below your shoulder line and you get them too deep and probably too much left side bend.

The frustrating thing was that it felt like I couldn't hinge my wrists up more than that, but like I said above, I was trying to use my right wrist too much. I've gotten the feel of using my left wrist, so that will help for next time.

 

I think my push to 8 is below my shoulders because my tendency was to avoid lifting my arms to get to 7. Wasn't a conscious thing, but something I need to try to avoid. 

 

I also thought 7 was farther behind me than it is, so I'll work more on getting to a comfortable position at the top. 

[GoGoErky]

10 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

The frustrating thing was that it felt like I couldn't hinge my wrists up more than that, but like I said above, I was trying to use my right wrist too much. I've gotten the feel of using my left wrist, so that will help for next time.

 

I think my push to 8 is below my shoulders because my tendency was to avoid lifting my arms to get to 7. Wasn't a conscious thing, but something I need to try to avoid. 

 

I also thought 7 was farther behind me than it is, so I'll work more on getting to a comfortable position at the top. 

I took a screen cap from one of Monte’s IG posts. You can see it’s pretty close to the ball of his right foot

[RayPlan]

48 minutes ago, GoGoErky said:

I took a screen cap from one of Monte’s IG posts. You can see it’s pretty close to the ball of his right foot

It's more of a body awareness issue when I'm in posture over the ball, even if I can see it in the video. I'll need to train myself to have that awareness.

 

 

 

One thing I noticed is that I got my left arm pinned to my chest, as evidenced by my coat bunching up here:

 

 

 

 

If the left side bend is excessive, that would necessarily mean I have too much forward bend at address. I'd be happy to change that, but the consensus here has seemed to be that I need it. It's probably causing me to unconsciously move my butt back to maintain balance. It would certainly help follow along with Monte a bit easier, since he doesn't have that much forward bend when demonstrating the moves.

[Valtiel]

38 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

If the left side bend is excessive, that would necessarily mean I have too much forward bend at address. I'd be happy to change that, but the consensus here has seemed to be that I need it.

Where was the consensus that you need more forward bend at address? This address position is way out of bounds:



Ask yourself how you're meant to return to anything resembling this position at impact? If you maintained or gained any depth via correct sequencing and rotation you'd miss the ball inside. You're basically setting up to force yourself to do this to get to impact:



The reason this is damaging is because in every single swing you've posted you have the same exact "right hip forward thrust" position at impact, a product of the incorrect sequencing I broke down earlier. In setting up this bent over and far away from the ball you're only encouraging yourself to continue this move. You can *not* maintain spine angle through impact if you sequence incorrectly, your right hip coming forward will always crash into your lower back and push you up/back, so bending over *more* at address and then continuing that same pattern is backwards and continue to encourage the wrong moves.

Edited December 23, 2024 by Valtiel

[GoGoErky]

29 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

It's more of a body awareness issue when I'm in posture over the ball, even if I can see it in the video. I'll need to train myself to have that awareness.

I noticed you looking at the camera or at least in that direction when you were doing the drills. You don’t really want to be doing that. Save that for the mirror. When filming you do the movements then check the camera after to see if you are doing them correctly.

 

32 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

If the left side bend is excessive, that would necessarily mean I have too much forward bend at address

This may be my perception but it seems like you maybe tinkering with setup almost every session and end up in different positions. 
 

Nailing setup is key to everything else. Your setup should be the same every session and you should have a routine for getting into that proper setup and going through it for every swing you take in your sessions.

 

Review the grip and setup video from Monte on rebellion golf, it’s free. This should be hammered over and over like the ntc drills.

35 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

I'd be happy to change that, but the consensus here has seemed to be that I need it.

Yes you needed more but you took it to the extreme in the video and at the wrong place in the swing. Monte talks about adding left bend and increasing knee flexion in the transition part of ntc. 

 

37 minutes ago, RayPlan said:

It's probably causing me to unconsciously move my butt back to maintain balance. It would certainly help follow along with Monte a bit easier, since he doesn't have that much forward bend when demonstrating the moves.

Purely my opinion I think you fee off balanced in other setups because it feels weird or different

[biker74]

My niece was watching me look at your thread on wrx.And she thinks you have such a nice 🍑.Didnt want to post this.But made me laugh 

 

those college girls have hormones on full blast 24-7